Pakistan's first (or rather second) true war

[EjazR]

Any way most big & small farmers who take loand from national bank or co-operative banks hardly repay their loans.Most wait for politically motivated loan waiver announcements from the govt.

Its those farmers who borrow money from the private local money lenders often fail in to this debt trap incase of a crop failure and commit suicides.

so i hardly believe and there is no significant evidence that this 50000cr loan waiver program gonna stop farmers from commiting suicides .If anything it only helped those farmers nationwide who didnt defaulted on their bank loans.

Farm Loan Waiver is actually now Rs. 72,000 crore. Besides, these loan waivers target the marginalised farmers and not the big and well to do ones. They target farmers who have lost crops due to floods or droughts including the Vidharba region. This debt relief is similar to programs run in other developed countries for drought and floods.

The only reason why a farmer would still commit suicide is because he is unaware of this scheme. Otherwise there is nothing stopping him from getting a loan from the co-operative bank to pay of his private loan and get it waived, or atleast get a partial waiver. Almost 4.3 million poor farmers benefited directly from the scheme. That is no small feat it an inherently corrupt state. The government should be commended on that.

 

[EjazR]

tsk, tsk - first the lefty wefty social justice crowd argued that all problems will be solved if you apportion someone Else's property to another -- now it seems we will have apportion some of the public treasury to guard against crop failures, inaccessible markets and money lenders, banks and such. Utopia it seems has to depend upon the transfer of private wealth and it's creation into public liability -- of course someone/some persons will have finance this -- tsk. tsk, isn't that how we got into this problem to begin with?

You understand public liability?? as in, you - yeah you are the "public" part, that is if you have a job or a business and pay taxes.

The point I was making was land reforms gave empowerment to the Indian farmers and where able to share from the Trillions of dollars in revenue that the Indian government received as the economy grew at 9% per annum.
IF the reforms had not cut down the rajas, maharajas, nawabs and nizams to size so that they cannot put undue influence in the coutry's politics for their vested interests, India would have small private fiefdoms where these rajas and chowdrys would reign supreme and would pressure voters to vote in a certain way, result no benefit of democracy.

By the way, all developed countries, including the US, Europe and Australia provide massive subsidies to their agricultural sectors, even when there are NO crop failures, and that is from the tax payers money. And if the government uses money from the treasury for the welfare and help of the marginalized and poor of the society, whats leftist about that?

Anyways, my main premise was land reforms and ceilings should be pushed in pakistan to reduce the undue influences of the land lords and empower the bonded labourers. This would indirectly help in improving the health of Pakistani democracy. I don't see how you can disagree with that.

 

[booo]

tsk, tsk - first the lefty wefty social justice crowd argued that all problems will be solved if you apportion someone Else's property to another -- now it seems we will have apportion some of the public treasury to guard against crop failures, inaccessible markets and money lenders, banks and such. Utopia it seems has to depend upon the transfer of private wealth and it's creation into public liability -- of course someone/some persons will have finance this -- tsk. tsk, isn't that how we got into this problem to begin with?

You understand public liability?? as in, you - yeah you are the "public" part, that is if you have a job or a business and pay taxes.

I agree, loan waiver is not the permanent solution. There was a plan to join all the rivers in india (if I am not wrong) so that the flood water of one river could be diverted to other. but I dont think there is anything done at that front.

IMO, loan waiver was to gain vote bank.

 

[Khajur]

Farm Loan Waiver is actually now Rs. 72,000 crore. Besides, these loan waivers target the marginalised farmers and not the big and well to do ones. They target farmers who have lost crops due to floods or droughts including the Vidharba region. This debt relief is similar to programs run in other developed countries for drought and floods.

The only reason why a farmer would still commit suicide is because he is unaware of this scheme. Otherwise there is nothing stopping him from getting a loan from the co-operative bank to pay of his private loan and get it waived, or atleast get a partial waiver. Almost 4.3 million poor farmers benefited directly from the scheme. That is no small feat it an inherently corrupt state. The government should be commended on that.

Look even 72,000 crore loan waiver scheme wont help much because the sheer size of no of farmers in india and the upper limit of 10 to 15 thousands sums rupees partial waiver set for for each farmer.

This 10 to 15 thousands sums of rupees is nothing and most farmers go to private money lenders since banks hesitate to lend any higer amount beyond 10/20 thousand rupees.In many cases they go the private lenders after securing a loan from the bank.

so bank loan waiver'll help only to a certain extent.But no tangible improvemet to ground situation where main problem is crop failure often due lack of better irrigation facility.Such short term populist measure made no difference to most farmers of vidarbha who are still commiting suicide due to debt burdens induced by crop failure after repeated droughts in several yrs.

Most knowledgeable ppl would say if the govt had spent to thousand of crores rupees to build dams and channels for irrigation making those drought prone areas ready for agriculture around the year,it would have brought long term changes to cotton farmers of vidarbha and else where in the country.

 

[dabong1]

Farm Loan Waiver is actually now Rs. 72,000 crore. Besides, these loan waivers target the marginalised farmers and not the big and well to do ones. They target farmers who have lost crops due to floods or droughts including the Vidharba region. This debt relief is similar to programs run in other developed countries for drought and floods.

The only reason why a farmer would still commit suicide is because he is unaware of this scheme. Otherwise there is nothing stopping him from getting a loan from the co-operative bank to pay of his private loan and get it waived, or atleast get a partial waiver. Almost 4.3 million poor farmers benefited directly from the scheme. That is no small feat it an inherently corrupt state. The government should be commended on that.

If the indian govt is going to pay off the poor farmers loans it is a great thing and they they should congratulated

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

My 2 cents - the issue is not one of land reform and breaking up large land holdings.

The issue is the lack of government writ and investment in infrastructure in rural areas, especially areas where feudals and sardars hold sway.

Why do we still have bonded labor, private jails and inhuman treatment meted out to peasants in these areas? Its certainly not because its legal.

The problem is that the provincial and federal government have abdicated on their responsibilities to provide education and health services to these people so that they and their children may improve their lives, and the government has failed to enforce basic rights that allow these feudals to exploit and maltreat peasants and small farmer.

 

[muse]

Back to "bidnes"


Capital suggestion



Realpolitik

Sunday, May 24, 2009
Dr Farrukh Saleem

The government of Pakistan is high on cocaine. It spends a whopping Rs500 billion more than it earns. We are also high on cocaine. Our imports are $15 billion more than our exports. The government must beg, borrow or both. In November, we begged the International Monetary Fund (IMF) for more cocaine so that we could maintain our high for a few more months. Then we went to Abu Dhabi for even more begging. We begged the United States, Canada, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, China, Japan, Australia and the European Union. The US, China and the world are all sure that we will keep coming back for more. Who's going to give us $20 billion worth of cocaine every year, year in year out?

In November, the IMF promised a $7.6 billion Stand-By Agreement (SBA) only because General David Petraeus, the current commander of the US Central Command, personally intervened on our behalf. In Tokyo, Friends of Democratic Pakistan pledged $5 billion because Uncle Sam persuaded them to do so.

Washington, the District of Columbia, is exactly 11,388 kilometres from Islamabad. Washington has jurisdiction over five per cent of humanity and that human capital produces some 25 per cent of global GDP year in year out. And, that means that Uncle Sam is the only uncle on the face of the planet who has the cocaine to keep our obsession with cocaine alive and kicking.

It so happens that some 72,000 of Uncle Sam's favourite GIs are trapped in the midst of the 'graveyard of empires' exactly 11,152 kilometres away from home, sweet home. And, the GIs need breakfast sandwiches, cereal, crackers, peanut butter, jam and muffins. And, the only way that all those GIs can get breakfast sandwiches, cereal, crackers, peanut butter, jam and muffins is through the Karachi Port Trust.

Uncle Sam is scared, fearful and panic-stricken; terrified of Al Qaeda, its very own Frankenstein. Too bad, almost all of Uncle Sam's Combat Brigade Teams (CBTs) are currently deployed meaning that the United States Army is fully deployed (Iraq, South Korea and Afghanistan). But then there's the 7th largest army in the world. The problem is that the 7th largest army's Al Khalid Main Battle Tanks, Hamza Infantry Fighting Vehicles, Talha Armoured Personnel Carriers, all of its infantry regiments, its artillery, armoured corps regiments, machine guns, projectile launchers, self-propelled Howitzers and 81 mm mortars are all aiming east.

Uncle Sam has sent in the 75th Ranger Regiment, 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, 2nd Marine Special Operations Battalion, 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division, 1st Infantry Division, 2nd Infantry Regiment and 6th Field Artillery Regiment. The GIs have been away -- away from the land of milk and honey -- for a bad seven years. They have little or no intelligence on the Frankenstein that Director Casey created some 28 years ago.

Uncle Sam is short on military manpower, low on intelligence and lacks an alternative supply line. We are up against an enemy in the east which is eight times bigger and an enemy within. We are beggars all right but have the surplus military manpower and the intelligence. What we need is lots of cocaine plus counterinsurgency training and equipment. Uncle Sam has what we need. And, we have what the Uncle needs.

America is confused like never before. There have already been a handful of strategic reviews of America's Afghan policy. There was a time when the Vice President's Office used to control the Pakistan policy (which has since been hijacked by the special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan). America is confused like never before. President Obama does not want Afghanistan to remain the centrepiece of his presidency for the following four years. General Petraeus, on the other hand, wants to replicate his Iraq success but Secretary Gates is at odds with General Petraeus (Gates was the first civilian in the past 50 years to have fired a top general). In 2003, the United States Department of State had declared Gulbuddin Hekmatyar as a 'Specially Designated Global Terrorist' and the special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan has now opened up communication channels with the same 'Specially Designated Global Terrorist'. And, that's realpolitik.

The writer is the executive director of the Centre for Research and Security Studies (CRSS). Email: farrukh15@hotmail.com

 

[S-2]

"In 2003, the United States Department of State had declared Gulbuddin Hekmatyar as a 'Specially Designated Global Terrorist' and the special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan has now opened up communication channels with the same 'Specially Designated Global Terrorist'."

"...opened up communication channels"...is akin to "hedging" isn't it. Just more blowback. Holbrooke, the master of leveraged negotiation, is supposedly just warming up.

Who says Pakistan can't teach us anything?

OTOH, who here thinks that if Hekmatyar pops up on a PREDATOR target list that we won't take the shot and interrupt those "communication channels"?

Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer. Never know when your enemies may change to friends and vice versa. Never know when the enemy of your enemy becomes your friend in the process.

We apologize for the functional confusion. We're still taking lessons from you guys and are hardly ready to graduate to the big time...

...but we're gettin' there.

Want some more coke?

 

[muse]

Want some more coke?

Fo shu, sugah, love that coke.

 

[EjazR]

My 2 cents - the issue is not one of land reform and breaking up large land holdings.

The issue is the lack of government writ and investment in infrastructure in rural areas, especially areas where feudals and sardars hold sway.

Why do we still have bonded labor, private jails and inhuman treatment meted out to peasants in these areas? Its certainly not because its legal.

The problem is that the provincial and federal government have abdicated on their responsibilities to provide education and health services to these people so that they and their children may improve their lives, and the government has failed to enforce basic rights that allow these feudals to exploit and maltreat peasants and small farmer.

Agreed AM, but IMHO implementing land reforms would be "one" of the things that would go in helping in these problems by empowering the poor. Pakistan already has laws inacted as early as in the 70s by ZA Butto and all the government needs to do is implement them. It is one of the easiest way, legislatively, for strengthening Pakistani democracy. The need to revive land reforms in Pakistan

Even in India, there are some areas where the landlords (who had the politcal power) did not allow land reforms to be implemented fully.
These are areas such as Chattisgarh, Jharkhand and parts of AP and Maharashtra. Its no coincidence that these are also the same areas where the naxalites terrorism is most active. Something to ponder upon.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

By the way, all developed countries, including the US, Europe and Australia provide massive subsidies to their agricultural sectors, even when there are NO crop failures, and that is from the tax payers money. And if the government uses money from the treasury for the welfare and help of the marginalized and poor of the society, whats leftist about that?

Err come again on the Australia bit will you..
Europe and USA both have Agriculture subsidies but the last time I heard about any money handouts over here was due to drought/flooding etc .. No standard crop etc subsidies.

That was and is a big beef we have with Europe and USA in the export markets.
Note also with the EU the issues of farm subs are starting to thin out as its anti competition within the EU.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agreed AM, but IMHO implementing land reforms would be "one" of the things that would go in helping in these problems by empowering the poor. Pakistan already has laws inacted as early as in the 70s by ZA Butto and all the government needs to do is implement them. It is one of the easiest way, legislatively, for strengthening Pakistani democracy. The need to revive land reforms in Pakistan

Even in India, there are some areas where the landlords (who had the politcal power) did not allow land reforms to be implemented fully.
These are areas such as Chattisgarh, Jharkhand and parts of AP and Maharashtra. Its no coincidence that these are also the same areas where the naxalites terrorism is most active. Something to ponder upon.

But is the issue the fact that landowners hold large tracts of land, or that the government does not enforce laws related to minimum wage, usury, proper treatment of employees, bonded labor and does not provide health, education and other social infrastructure through which peasants can improve their lives and have options?

 

[EjazR]

But is the issue the fact that landowners hold large tracts of land, or that the government does not enforce laws related to minimum wage, usury, proper treatment of employees, bonded labor and does not provide health, education and other social infrastructure through which peasants can improve their lives and have options?

Its certainly both, but land reforms enacted by Bhutto have not been implemented and this could be the first step that would go a long way in alleviating all the issues you mentioned.

Basically reducing the proportion of landless laborers will go along way in improving social equality. This is not the only solution, but an important component.