Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

[Rocky rock]

This MRAP has been in service with Sri Lanka and Its cheaper than buying toyota pickups. if a IED goes off under a toyota pick up their will be guaranteed fatalities. Now Sri Lanka has built these under license from South Africa since 1986 and it has saved countless lives. All it is a Chassis of a Mercedes Unimog Truck with Mercedes engine and armored compartment and V shaped hull. If Sri Lanka can build them why can't we?

Our lohar ruler can build them if he so wishes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicorn_APC

so what's so bad with M113 and Hamza APC? they're filling the gap quite well.

 

[Path-Finder]

so what's so bad with M113 and Hamza APC? they're filling the gap quite well.

they do not have the V shaped hull. Its is all about the V shaped hull that deflects the blast away.
The APC like M113 when a IED goes off all the blast is absorbed and it blows the APC killing troops. Buffel for example is higher off the ground so if the chassis is damaged its no loss at all because its made from cheap components. The troops can repair it if not just leave it as it is.

Most important thing is troops survive it, far too many IEDs/ambushes have killed officers and jawans. those who survive have injuries for life all because they were in pickups.

 

[Advocate Pakistan]

I thought we were discussing artillery here and not APC and MRAPs.

 

[Arsalan]

that's not the only confusion ahem!! Hazrat is there a source behind you claim that Denel is ahead of Nora? can you be clear on why Nora design is not suitable??

I hold you and only YOU responsible for what is about to happen next!!

You are such as a**!!!


Both Nora and T5-52 were tested and some tweaks were required (at least with Nora). A second Nora appeared last year (Sep-Oct if i remember correctly).

AS for MRAPs you are right, we do need them. However please note that not only these are quite expensive to procure, more importantly, these are VERY expensive to operate as they consume loads of fuel and need extensive maintenance. That is the reason we will keep seeing those Toyota trucks for now, at least in our city and inter-city movement. For forward area or hot zone deployments (like in FATA and NW) we are already moving to MRAP and ditching these Hilux trucks and more number will improve the pace. For general movement of the forces, the Hilux and the troop trucks will stay for years and years to come. for us it will always be a mix of peace area traveler like those trucks and Toyota Hilux and Land Rover defenders along, also featured in hot zones but with MRAPs and APCs

Which SA gun we are testing, G-6 or T-5??

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/g6_52.htm

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/t5_52.htm

T5-52.

Why G-6 is not included both are good, G-6 hit longer while T-5 can fire faster.

t5-52. It's the same gun as the g6-52 just different platform (the uae has the 45 cal gun not the 52). The T5 affords more flexibility as you can usually decouple the gun and the cockpit/engine/chassis and use it as a powered-towed howitzer. two birds with one stone.

G-6 have certain other advantages as well (like it carried more rounds,, 47 compared to 28 in T5) have slightly longer vehicle range (600 vs 500Km) Slightly better speed (90Km vs 85km) and is much better protected (is amongst the best protected SPH out there) however we were testing systems in range of T5-52 category, Nora B52 and T5 are similar. In past we worked with Sh-1 as well. These are similar guns. G6 is a bit next level (the price will be next level too) ) Also note that T5 offer a more flexible platform and is lighter in weight (28 tons vs 47ton i think)

 

[Path-Finder]

I hold you and only YOU responsible for what is about to happen next!!

You are such as a**!!!


Both Nora and T5-52 were tested and some tweaks were required (at least with Nora). A second Nora appeared last year (Sep-Oct if i remember correctly).

AS for MRAPs you are right, we do need them. However please note that not only these are quite expensive to procure, more importantly, these are VERY expensive to operate as they consume loads of fuel and need extensive maintenance. That is the reason we will keep seeing those Toyota trucks for now, at least in our city and inter-city movement. For forward area or hot zone deployments (like in FATA and NW) we are already moving to MRAP and ditching these Hilux trucks and more number will improve the pace. For general movement of the forces, the Hilux and the troop trucks will stay for years and years to come. for us it will always be a mix of peace area traveler like those trucks and Toyota Hilux and Land Rover defenders along, also featured in hot zones but with MRAPs and APCs



T5-52.



G-6 have certain other advantages as well (like it carried more rounds,, 47 compared to 28 in T5) have slightly longer vehicle range (600 vs 500Km) Slightly better speed (90Km vs 85km) and is much better protected (is amongst the best protected SPH out there) however we were testing systems in range of T5-52 category, Nora B52 and T5 are similar. In past we worked with Sh-1 as well. These are similar guns. G6 is a bit next level (the price will be next level too) ) Also note that T5 offer a more flexible platform and is lighter in weight (28 tons vs 47ton i think)

I will however say that Buffel MRAP the one I mentioned is far far cheaper than the other ones available like MAXXPRO and Toyota pickup plus we can get them for peanuts. Literally peanuts, Sri Lanka is making them under license and so can we. My whole argument is Buffel is far better protection than the death trap Toyota Pickups. If Buffle can Survive the extremely harsh environment like Namibia then it will be absolutely at home in Pakistan. @denel can back me up here!

 

[Zarvan]

I hold you and only YOU responsible for what is about to happen next!!

You are such as a**!!!


Both Nora and T5-52 were tested and some tweaks were required (at least with Nora). A second Nora appeared last year (Sep-Oct if i remember correctly).

AS for MRAPs you are right, we do need them. However please note that not only these are quite expensive to procure, more importantly, these are VERY expensive to operate as they consume loads of fuel and need extensive maintenance. That is the reason we will keep seeing those Toyota trucks for now, at least in our city and inter-city movement. For forward area or hot zone deployments (like in FATA and NW) we are already moving to MRAP and ditching these Hilux trucks and more number will improve the pace. For general movement of the forces, the Hilux and the troop trucks will stay for years and years to come. for us it will always be a mix of peace area traveler like those trucks and Toyota Hilux and Land Rover defenders along, also featured in hot zones but with MRAPs and APCs



T5-52.




G-6 have certain other advantages as well (like it carried more rounds,, 47 compared to 28 in T5) have slightly longer vehicle range (600 vs 500Km) Slightly better speed (90Km vs 85km) and is much better protected (is amongst the best protected SPH out there) however we were testing systems in range of T5-52 category, Nora B52 and T5 are similar. In past we worked with Sh-1 as well. These are similar guns. G6 is a bit next level (the price will be next level too) ) Also note that T5 offer a more flexible platform and is lighter in weight (28 tons vs 47ton i think)

UAE got rights for producing quality MRAP in 63 million dollars not that expensive if we have the will. A soldier dying paying his family and giving plots and taking care if injure cost lot more but to understand that common sense is needed which sorry but our leadership is not showing. I forgot recruiting and training new guys.

 

[Arsalan]

UAE got rights for producing quality MRAP in 63 million dollars not that expensive if we have the will. A soldier dying paying his family and giving plots and taking care if injure cost lot more but to understand that common sense is needed which sorry but our leadership is not showing. I forgot recruiting and training new guys.

As mentioned, we will be using a mix of both. Do not expect MRAPs running around between Lahore and Islamabad in peace time carrying troops. That job will be taken care of by the pick ups and the trucks. Soldiers dyeing and presenting that painful picture just to make a point is shameful. It is in operational hot zones where we need MRAPs. We cannot give that sort of protection all across the country even when there is danger or terror attacks. This is just not feasible or possible. Do you have any idea about the number of Hilux and Defenders and the Trucks that we are using to carry our troops? MRAPs can replace them in hot zones only, NOT IS PEACEFUL AREA as a routine means of transport. This is common sense the leadership is using and have displayed.

 

[Zarvan]

As mentioned, we will be using a mix of both. Do not expect MRAPs running around between Lahore and Islamabad in peace time carrying troops. That job will be taken care of by the pick ups and the trucks. Soldiers dyeing and presenting that painful picture just to make a point is shameful. It is in operational hot zones where we need MRAPs. We cannot give that sort of protection all across the country even when there is danger or terror attacks. This is just not feasible or possible. Do you have any idea about the number of Hilux and Defenders and the Trucks that we are using to carry our troops? MRAPs can replace them in hot zones only, NOT IS PEACEFUL AREA as a routine means of transport. This is common sense the leadership is using and have displayed.

You are ready to sent more money on when tragedy has taken place but not ready to prevent it from happening in first place. Really Genius Thoughts

 

[Arsalan]

You are ready to sent more money on when tragedy has taken place but not ready to prevent it from happening in first place. Really Genius Thoughts

I am ready to only as much money as available. Do not like building castles in the air.
Your post confirms that you have absolutely no idea how many pick-ups and trucks are there in use of our army, if you do you would have understood what i meant. Go check the numbers and then tell what you think about it. The MRAPs are and will be for hot zones alone. Do not expect them to be running around in Islamabad (even if there is that risk of terror strikes, this is just not feasible to move all troops in MRAPs) NO ONE DOES!!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

As mentioned, we will be using a mix of both. Do not expect MRAPs running around between Lahore and Islamabad in peace time carrying troops. That job will be taken care of by the pick ups and the trucks. Soldiers dyeing and presenting that painful picture just to make a point is shameful. It is in operational hot zones where we need MRAPs. We cannot give that sort of protection all across the country even when there is danger or terror attacks. This is just not feasible or possible. Do you have any idea about the number of Hilux and Defenders and the Trucks that we are using to carry our troops? MRAPs can replace them in hot zones only, NOT IS PEACEFUL AREA as a routine means of transport. This is common sense the leadership is using and have displayed.

It's worth noting that the Spanish company UROVESA is marketing the VAMTAC to the Pakistan Army. The VAMTAC is a Humvee-like utility vehicle - cheaper than MRAPs, safer than pick-up trucks.

Speaking of artillery, might be worth talking to Denel about the G7 Light Experimental Ordnance (LEO). Weighing 3,800 kg, our Mi-171s can carry them.

 

[Arsalan]

It's worth noting that the Spanish company UROVESA is marketing the VAMTAC to the Pakistan Army. The VAMTAC is a Humvee-like utility vehicle - cheaper than MRAPs, safer than pick-up trucks.

Brilliant!! (if better than Pick-ups)
Still sir i hope you know that we will need around 10000 of these to replace all pick-ups!
12000 something to be more precise. Wont be feasible. The Pick-ups are likely to stay for routine transportation and tasks. However these do offer a much more sensible replacement than having 12000 MRAPs running around gulping down that imported fuel.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Brilliant!!
Still sir i hope you know that we will need around 10000 of these to replace all pick-ups!
12000 something to be more precise. Wont be feasible. The Pick-ups are likely to stay for routine transportation and tasks. However these do offer a much more sensible replacement than having 12000 MRAPs running around gulping down that imported fuel.

They can gradually replace those 12,000 vehicles over a 40-50 year period. There's no difference between an old Humvee and a new Humvee to the casual observer.

 

[Arsalan]

They can gradually replace those 12,000 vehicles over a 40-50 year period. There's no difference between an old Humvee and a new Humvee to the casual observer.

Yup, THESE as i mentioned make a much more sensible replacement option and that too over an extended period of time as you suggested. They are more like stronger better protected Pick-Up trucks. On other hand the MRAPs are a special platform and will find wide application in special fields and scenarios. Will however love if we can acquire the MRAPs in large number to meet our war time needs and also serve in conflict zones against the terrorists (that is where they are most useful). What numbers would you suggest? 800-1200 units perhaps? We must look for a good supplier and sign a ToT. (Currently we are looking to US for those used ones but that will have to change as they are very expensive to operate)

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yup, THESE as i mentioned make a much more sensible replacement option and that too over an extended period of time as you suggested. They are more like stronger better protected Pick-Up trucks. On other hand the MRAPs are a special platform and will find wide application in special fields and scenarios. Will however love if we can acquire the MRAPs in large number to meet our war time needs and also serve in conflict zones against the terrorists (that is where they are most useful). What numbers would you suggest? 800-1200 units perhaps? We must look for a good supplier and sign a ToT. (Currently we are looking to US for those used ones but that will have to change as they are very expensive to operate)

Since the PA isn't pushing for local MRAP production at this point, I don't think they'll cross 300 vehicles. It's beginning to seem like COIN operations are drawing down, at least to an extent where the Army in mass isn't needed. Long-term, I think GHQ will want to pass COIN to a nimbler force comprising of specialist Army, FC and LEAs.

 

[Path-Finder]

It's worth noting that the Spanish company UROVESA is marketing the VAMTAC to the Pakistan Army. The VAMTAC is a Humvee-like utility vehicle - cheaper than MRAPs, safer than pick-up trucks.

Speaking of artillery, might be worth talking to Denel about the G7 Light Experimental Ordnance (LEO). Weighing 3,800 kg, our Mi-171s can carry them.

Small objection Humvee became a death trap similarly to our pickups when Iraq saw scores of Humvee getting blown to shreds causing the US to go and Purchase South African RG31 MRAP. Which was followed by engineers from South Africa working with US truck makers to provide MRAPS up till present time. This Spanish vehicle is a Humvee as well.

I maybe wrong BUT the need for MRAPS will never subside as IED's Suicide attacks on army convoy are not going away anytime soon! All Nations are stockpiling MRAPS just look at Kuwait smaller than Lahore and more MRAPS than PA!