Pakistan's Anti Armor UCAVs ?

[Kompromat]

Folks i have been thinking of this idea that if Pakistan Army can Acquire the Upcoming Burraq UCAV in an Anti Tank Role.

I know it is too early to say such a thing but this idea can turn the whole battlefield into our hands.

If we mass produce these UCAVs and deploy them in anti tank and armor roles along side our gunships - they would not only provide added firepower but also would have a nerve breaking impact on Indian Armor through its large numbers and accuracy.

According to my info these Burraqs will carry LGMs similar to the Hell Fire (Not aware of the real product).

With little modifications these birds can become tank killing machines and because of their lower costs compared to our gunships it would be possible to mass produce them. Moreover These UCAVs can be used against Bunkers , Infantry vehicles , enemy bridges , Communication locations etc 24/7 without putting a human life at stake.


Share your Ideas.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well its a very doable idea and a very cost effective option by looking at our meager finances.

Armed UAVs of this nature can not only be used in anti-armor role, rather they can be used effectively against forward formations, artillery positions and other roles, where attacking the required target is needed on urgent basis.

It can sufficiently reduce the load on the air force for CAS missions, thus PAF can utilize those sorties for other purposes and PA or PAF controlling such armed drones can do a lot of damage, with less damage, in asset as well as manpower to itself.

Armed UAVs with capability to take off from forward roughly prepared runway patches or dirt based runways with short take off and landing capability or to be launched with bungee style launching mechanism should be preferred.

Production should be fully in house, so that we can make them in numbers and be able to sustain losses.

 

[Kompromat]

Well its a very doable idea and a very cost effective option by looking at our meager finances.

Armed UAVs of this nature can not only be used in anti-armor role, rather they can be used effectively against forward formations, artillery positions and other roles, where attacking the required target is needed on urgent basis.

It can sufficiently reduce the load on the air force for CAS missions, thus PAF can utilize those sorties for other purposes and PA or PAF controlling such armed drones can do a lot of damage, with less damage, in asset as well as manpower to itself.

Armed UAVs with capability to take off from forward roughly prepared runway patches or dirt based runways with short take off and landing capability or to be launched with bungee style launching mechanism should be preferred.

Production should be fully in house, so that we can make them in numbers and be able to sustain losses.

I agree with you.

UCAV's wont cost us much once produced and if it is being produced at PAC , NESCOM , AWC , ID in Parts as we know it is a financially viable option because of ultra low labor costs.

The most striking advantage of this technology can be situational awareness. Just imagine 100-120 of these birds flying over an invading bunch of forces , they would not only bomb the crap out of them but also they can give vital situational awareness and battlefield picture to other assets like PAF & Cobra squadrons via data link.

Not just that it also can be fitted with Jammers and Electronic warfare equipment , IRST , NV cameras and many other weapons and equipment.

There is zero life loss involved and its psychological impact on an invading force would be diabolical when they will see these robots ruthlessly bombing their armor and strategic positions day and night with extreme precision. Moreover these birds can be also made to carry biological attack weapons for enemy infantry.

The story doesn't end here - these Robots will increase the airspace signature and fill the enemy radar and awacs screens with airborne objects - thus their confused air force can have fun shooting them down while ours can support Army & navy and guard our airspace.

I think this idea should be taken up seriously by our Army folks here and Burraqs if prove lethal should be produced as we produce our Tanks in mass numbers.

Since we don't have enough Fighters in our air force to match the increasing numbers of the Indian air force this option can provide us with a workable substitute.

what do you think ?

Regards:

 

[Safriz]

The idea is great,but i dont know how Pakistan controls those UAVs..The country has no military satellites,and the only option is controlling those Remote controlled planes via ground waves,which are limited to within the horizon.That means the controller has to be near the UAV.
That can be a problem.

 

[SQ8]

There is a problem.. you still need effective C2I for such assets..and considering the high EW enviornment that will be the sub-continent battlefield in the near future.. it would be prudent to have secure links in place.. for these systems to operate.
Unlike the Americans.. most of our assets cannot be sat linked.. and while the scope for the Burraq may be local and short wave radio or microwave links can both work.. they are still limited by the number of assets you can operate.

There is something akin to your idea though.. in a game..

This concept was researched practically as well..

A smaller drone.. easily deployable from the battlefield without a need for a runway or any thing.. allowing greater SA for the unit commander.. and first shot first kill.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I agree with you.

UCAV's wont cost us much once produced and if it is being produced at PAC , NESCOM , AWC , ID in Parts as we know it is a financially viable option because of ultra low labor costs.

The most striking advantage of this technology can be situational awareness. Just imagine 100-120 of these birds flying over an invading bunch of forces , they would not only bomb the crap out of them but also they can give vital situational awareness and battlefield picture to other assets like PAF & Cobra squadrons via data link.

Not just that it also can be fitted with Jammers and Electronic warfare equipment , IRST , NV cameras and many other weapons and equipment.

There is zero life loss involved and its psychological impact on an invading force would be diabolical when they will see these robots ruthlessly bombing their armor and strategic positions day and night with extreme precision. Moreover these birds can be also made to carry biological attack weapons for enemy infantry.

The story doesn't end here - these Robots will increase the airspace signature and fill the enemy radar and awacs screens with airborne objects - thus their confused air force can have fun shooting them down while ours can support Army & navy and guard our airspace.

I think this idea should be taken up seriously by our Army folks here and Burraqs if prove lethal should be produced as we produce our Tanks in mass numbers.

Since we don't have enough Fighters in our air force to match the increasing numbers of the Indian air force this option can provide us with a workable substitute.

what do you think ?

Regards:

Totally agree, UAVs can be used in numerous roles and are effective and efficient. Various platforms need to be looked into for different purposes.

Plus, smaller stealth kind of UAVs are also to be looked into, if not heavy load, atleast carry one or two small bombs for some important roles as UAVs with radar signatures and heat signatures can also be brought down through MANPADs or other SAM systems.

Thus UAVs for filling the enemy radar screens should be separate, while the ones for attacking enemy targets should have less RCS, so that they can survive. Enemy armor formations would be covered with good SAM coverage as they have mobile SAM systems which can keep up with their armored formations, thus less RCS, would mean less likely to be shot down chances.

 

[Kompromat]

There is a problem.. you still need effective C2I for such assets..and considering the high EW enviornment that will be the sub-continent battlefield in the near future.. it would be prudent to have secure links in place.. for these systems to operate.
Unlike the Americans.. most of our assets cannot be sat linked.. and while the scope for the Burraq may be local and short wave radio or microwave links can both work.. they are still limited by the number of assets you can operate.

There is something akin to your idea though.. in a game..

This concept was researched practically as well..

A smaller drone.. easily deployable from the battlefield without a need for a runway or any thing.. allowing greater SA for the unit commander.. and first shot first kill.

You are talking Electronic warfare role in specific aren't you ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

The idea is great,but i dont know how Pakistan controls those UAVs..The country has no military satellites,and the only option is controlling those Remote controlled planes via ground waves,which are limited to within the horizon.That means the controller has to be near the UAV.
That can be a problem.

Up till 150-200KM range, ground control stations can effectively control the UAVs, so even if we go for such strategy, we can have zones of 100-200KM, where UAV units can operate and control the area given to them. Even the forward enemy positions 50-100KM inside enemy territory can be targeted with UAVs with their GCS 50KM inside our own borders. Need is to have mobile GCS which can move around if needed.

Provided, as santro said, we have secure and jam free communication system developed.

Plus, we can look for satellite communication systems as time passes by, army is already using satellite communication for its needs. And it seems Pakistan has already started work with China to make and put into orbit a communication satellite by next year.

 

[Kompromat]

Totally agree, UAVs can be used in numerous roles and are effective and efficient. Various platforms need to be looked into for different purposes.

Dead sure about this.

Plus, smaller stealth kind of UAVs are also to be looked into, if not heavy load, atleast carry one or two small bombs for some important roles

Well - if we need them then they can also be modified to be used for Kamikaze style attack or in other terms known as Killer drones.

as UAVs with radar signatures and heat signatures can also be brought down through MANPADs or other SAM systems. Thus UAVs for filling the enemy radar screens should be separate,

Yea - i agree because the purpose is to get the enemy forces to fire their MANPADS and strike them when they take time to reload.

while the ones for attacking enemy targets should have less RCS, so that they can survive. Enemy armor formations would be covered with good SAM coverage as they have mobile SAM systems which can keep up with their armored formations, thus less RCS, would mean less likely to be shot down chances.

There is alot that can be done for those types ie Stealthy design , Jamming pod , Chaff dispenser etc.

 

[Jigs]

You would need to have escorts on these. Or fighters would just shoot them down. Then a argument could be made to just put LGMs on aircraft in dual purpose role. Also range would be a problem till satellites are launched to control these. They would be cost effective though but at the cost of performance and many other capabilities.

 

[Kompromat]

You would need to have escorts on these. Or fighters would just shoot them down. Then a argument could be made to just put LGMs on aircraft in dual purpose role. Also range would be a problem till satellites are launched to control these. They would be cost effective though but at the cost of performance and many other capabilities.

Jigs who cares if a cheap delivery platform is shot down by an enemy fighter. Maybe this drone will cost Pakistan same amount of money what it costs to buy a good A2A missile.

This loss is without human loss of life and btw the LGMs have fair bit of range on it like 5kms and they are not in a AA's range or sight when flying low where as they (UCAVs) would be able to fire their munition from very close range to an extended range with deadly accuracy.

Moreover the enemy aircrafts will get one hell of a job of shooting down these bugs while they themselves would be extremely vulnerable.

 

[SQ8]

not specifically an EW role for UAV's.. rather a personalized recon role.. allow the Tank commander to keep his tank behind a rise.. and still see over the horizon. Helicopters were the first to allow commanders this ability.. but the high threat environment that is the low altitude battlefield of today requires something smaller and more agile than even the helo.

Such a uav.. would preferably launch out of a support vehicle following a tank group a minute behind.. and provide live feeds to the unit commander..so he can utilize his iron more effectively.
alternatively.. such a UAV may also provide target designation for LGM's launched by the tank.. something like the Sniper ATGM's but without ever exposing the tank itself.
The combat UCAV in a CAS role against a well armed modern enemy is a liability.. since to be able to operate effectively in a SAM infested environment.. it needs to have a low Radar, IR and electronic signature. the first two can be tackled at considerable expense.. but the third may be another issue.. since that UCAV will still need to establish contact with the ground station to identify enemy targets and get commands to engage..
All this time.. it is equally as vulnerable as a manned aircraft..and if it goes down without even expending a single shot.. its a waste.

the alternative is having cheaper ..smaller UCAV's operating in swarms.. where target designation is offloaded to another stealthier UAV or a ground asset..
Each UCAV carries a light load of two AGM's.. and is more of a launch platform than anything else..
One can devise a tactic where such UCAV's are kept in a holding area..and brought into the fight as they are needed..and buster when they are done.
How does one ensure that the holding area is kept secure..and safe from prying hunter killer teams.. is something else.
there may be a way to simply have farms of such UCAV's on call behind the front.. ready to launch in a moment.. then move out..
All a little too far fetched ..at least in a limited budget.

 

[Kompromat]

not specifically an EW role for UAV's.. rather a personalized recon role.. allow the Tank commander to keep his tank behind a rise.. and still see over the horizon. Helicopters were the first to allow commanders this ability.. but the high threat environment that is the low altitude battlefield of today requires something smaller and more agile than even the helo.

Such a uav.. would preferably launch out of a support vehicle following a tank group a minute behind.. and provide live feeds to the unit commander..so he can utilize his iron more effectively.
alternatively.. such a UAV may also provide target designation for LGM's launched by the tank.. something like the Sniper ATGM's but without ever exposing the tank itself.
The combat UCAV in a CAS role against a well armed modern enemy is a liability.. since to be able to operate effectively in a SAM infested environment.. it needs to have a low Radar, IR and electronic signature. the first two can be tackled at considerable expense.. but the third may be another issue.. since that UCAV will still need to establish contact with the ground station to identify enemy targets and get commands to engage..
All this time.. it is equally as vulnerable as a manned aircraft..and if it goes down without even expending a single shot.. its a waste.

the alternative is having cheaper ..smaller UCAV's operating in swarms.. where target designation is offloaded to another stealthier UAV or a ground asset..
Each UCAV carries a light load of two AGM's.. and is more of a launch platform than anything else..
One can devise a tactic where such UCAV's are kept in a holding area..and brought into the fight as they are needed..and buster when they are done.
How does one ensure that the holding area is kept secure..and safe from prying hunter killer teams.. is something else.
there may be a way to simply have farms of such UCAV's on call behind the front.. ready to launch in a moment.. then move out..
All a little too far fetched ..at least in a limited budget.

What about dedicated small UAVs with IRST and Laser designation pods connected with data link to as you said Tanks and other assets on the ground.

And a different type of large size UAV's with massive RCS for confusing enemy radar and on the other hand rather stealthier combat UAVs for attack purposes.

okay now that is understood - how do we solve secure datalinks and communication problems ?

 

[Jigs]

Jigs who cares if a cheap delivery platform is shot down by an enemy fighter. Maybe this drone will cost Pakistan same amount of money what it costs to buy a good A2A missile.

This loss is without human loss of life and btw the LGMs have fair bit of range on it like 5kms and they are not in a AA's range or sight when flying low where as they (UCAVs) would be able to fire their munition from very close range to an extended range with deadly accuracy.

Moreover the enemy aircrafts will get one hell of a job of shooting down these bugs while they themselves would be extremely vulnerable.

I am saying if it gets shot down before it can get in range then their isn't much of a point to field them. For example say 4 MQ-1s are heading out to destroy some tanks. And one fighter could pick them out launches 4 missiles and destroy all of them and the UCAV operators would have never known the aircraft was even there. So you would have lost 16 million dollars of drones.

 

[Kompromat]

I am saying if it gets shot down before it can get in range then their isn't much of a point to field them. For example say 4 MQ-1s are heading out to destroy some tanks. And one fighter could pick them out launches 4 missiles and destroy all of them and the UCAV operators would have never known the aircraft was even there. So you would have lost 16 million dollars of drones.

Those UCAVs would be operating under a SAM umbrella which ensures such a situation wont happen so often.