Pakistani High court orders Musharraf's arrest.

[IBRIS]

I saw a opinion on TV that it is also the fault of the court. Proceeding are held with the door closed and door is opened only after the order has been given or a bail been given, in this case the door was wide open and Musharraf simply strolled out.

After judge gave his proceedings Musharraf has lost all his rights, although he may have the right to appeal in Higher court. But he can't leave the court's premises until he/she is apprehended. He/she remains guilty until further rulings by higher court are given.??

 

[Sedqal]

I've read the last 65 years of Pakistani history in quite some detail - I think you need to do this your self. It's a very simple blanket statement to say it was just dictators taking over on their whims. However, it hasn't been the case. Each time there was a backlog, a scenario in which there was an intervention. It was never done in a vacume rather its was done in a context and each time was whole heatedly supported my stake holders namely - the JUDICIARY in the name "of the doctrine of necessity," political forces - many of them opportunistic and used the army as piggy bank. The beuroracy which has always considered political civilian leaders as "inferior." Finally, the people of Pakstan, no coup in the last 65 years could have occurred if it didn't have support on the ground - people would be fed up of civilian leadership and support army - after a few years - when dictatorship cycle would come to it's natural end - they would clamor for democracy - we are a fickle nation.
When all these institutions have such skeletons in their closets - the notion of "justice" becomes a bit fresh and far-fetched.
Make no mistake - I'm no supporter of martial law- its a system that's unsustainable - but I also have an aversion to this judicial activism that dispenses judicial decisions in hind sight and has personal connotations.
I believe Pakistan should give this imperfect democracy some time and not allow sideshow saga's to de-track it.

- I have a very good grip on history of Pakistan. India has twice as many insurgencies running, historically it has always lagged behind in most socio economic indicators. Why is that there was no intervention by Army in India? Whats true for Pakistan is twice as true for India.

- There was NO justification for Ayub or Yahya or Zia or Musharraf. All of them promised elections within a set time and all of them later became the self proclaimed Messiahs who will lead this nation into prosperity. Every single dictator was a complete tout of America who followed American designs in this region to the hilt completely ignoring Pakistani interests.

- Judges were threatened. Almost all the judges which refused to recognize this thuggish behavior were sacked.

- We are not a fickle nation we have been turned into a fickle nation by careful planning. The nation was not coming on roads after the nightmare of Zardari term PA had to arrange a complete joker named Qadri to start a new circus. Nation will never come on roads on their own.

 

[blain2]

- I have a very good grip on history of Pakistan. India has twice as many insurgencies running, historically it has always lagged behind in most socio economic indicators. Why is that there was no intervention by Army in India? Whats true for Pakistan is twice as true for India.

- There was NO justification for Ayub or Yahya or Zia or Musharraf. All of them promised elections within a set time and all of them later became the self proclaimed Messiahs who will lead this nation into prosperity. Every single dictator was a complete tout of America who followed American designs in this region to the hilt completely ignoring Pakistani interests.

- Judges were threatened. Almost all the judges which refused to recognize this thuggish behavior were sacked.

- We are not a fickle nation we have been turned into a fickle nation by careful planning. The nation was not coming on roads after the nightmare of Zardari term PA had to arrange a complete joker named Qadri to start a new circus. Nation will never come on roads on their own.

On what authority do we know that the PA was behind Qadri? Because a few armchair "experts" on our ranting and raving talk shows suggested the same?

 

[mirage2K]

National identity should come before any other identity. That includes religious identity and ethnic identity. I hope others on this forum learn this from you. Pakistan is all that should matter. Religion should become secondary as well as ethnicity.

I agree with you

 

[saiyan0321]

his house has been called a sub jail now. I thought he was supposed to face all court decisions fully headed and not run away from court.

his lawyer is saying he didnt run he went under govt security. So govt protected a court criminal.

 

[blain2]

I think what SC meant was that people and politicians who were saying that musharraf should be captured or hanged should file petitions against him rather then expecting the SC to do all the work. after all without the petition The courts could hardly have done anything.

Not the CJP's place to say this when he is definitely not "unbiased" in this case. I hope you see my point. He should not be inviting cases against a person with whom he has had differences and I can assure you, what he said can be said very diplomatically without inferring to any person.

his house has been called a sub jail now. I thought he was supposed to face all court decisions fully headed and not run away from court.

his lawyer is saying he didnt run he went under govt security. So govt protected a court criminal.

I think he will face the charges. He will go to courts. You need to keep in mind that what happened today was not expected. Musharraf and his team have filed the bail application, the very same application that has been accepted 2-3 times now on the basis of the ongoing election issues. The IHC judge revoked it, he is in his right to do so, yet it complicates the situation for everyone and the expectation of the Musharraf camp was that it would not be done in such manner.

He definitely performed a "commando" move here, which was that he took the initiative and bought himself some more time to come up with ways out of the situation. But I think he will go to jail for formality sake.

 

[saiyan0321]

Not the CJP's place to say this when he is definitely not "unbiased" in this case. I hope you see my point. He should not be inviting cases against a person with whom he has had differences and I can assure you, what he said can be said very diplomatically without any inferring to any person.

I know he is biased in this case. You cant expect him to be unbiased in this case, its human nature that goes without saying. Which is why i am saying that he is stuck big time. very very stuck. Considering the outcry it wasnt a bad call. people and politicians were expecting the SC to take a self action.

 

[Awesome]

I would caution everyone and remind everyone not to say anything untoward towards the Hon'able judges. Who have this honor by law. If you disagree with their decision, disagree with civility.

 

[saiyan0321]

So I guess contesting in election are out of the question now the he has bigger worries to attend too.

I would caution everyone and remind everyone not to say anything untoward the Hon'able judges. Who have this honor by law. If you disagree with their decision, disagree with civility.

I think AWAM is allowed to do that. it,s just for politicians, their party supporters and their lawyers

 

[Chrome9]

- I have a very good grip on history of Pakistan. India has twice as many insurgencies running, historically it has always lagged behind in most socio economic indicators. Why is that there was no intervention by Army in India? Whats true for Pakistan is twice as true for India.

- There was NO justification for Ayub or Yahya or Zia or Musharraf. All of them promised elections within a set time and all of them later became the self proclaimed Messiahs who will lead this nation into prosperity. Every single dictator was a complete tout of America who followed American designs in this region to the hilt completely ignoring Pakistani interests.

- Judges were threatened. Almost all the judges which refused to recognize this thuggish behavior were sacked.

- We are not a fickle nation we have been turned into a fickle nation by careful planning. The nation was not coming on roads after the nightmare of Zardari term PA had to arrange a complete joker named Qadri to start a new circus. Nation will never come on roads on their own.

Again - read up on how each coup happened, Zia's coup was the most controversial but the other's.. the situation was becoming unattainable and when the coup did happen there was broad based support on the ground on the condition that elections would occur on a set time. The second part I agree with, these people renegaded on their promises and illegally/immorally prolonged their stints in power. However, they too would have to face the music as each martial law has a sell-by date as it is not a sustainable system.
I would say the reason why India never had a martial law is because they never had the first one. Ever since Ayub Khan.. other army chiefs have had a framework to go by, no such frame work exists for an Indian army chief - never the less - that discussion would become far too academic and I don't want to delve too deeply in it on this thread.
As for Army men becoming self proclaimed messiah's - I think history will prove its the other way around - The great paradox in Pakistani leadership is that Dictators have presented them as reformist democrats so to prolong their stints in power wheras civilians have become progressively dictatorial. It's the likes of Nawaz Sharif who proclaimed him self the "ameer-ul-momineen" and the likes of Bhutto who thought he was the most intelligent man in Pakistan and had megalomaniac tendencies.
Funny it was these people who couldn't forsee the very people they had carefully engineered to be hand-picked selections for COAS - one of the most powerful offices in the country - would be the cause of their demise.
Your giving far too much leeway to the judges - they have only just become symbols of resistance - before this they were one of the most pathetic institution in the country and validated each martial law. Even now their behavior and performance is below par - The lower judiciaries are still archaic and sluggish and continue to fail the common man whereas the higher ones seem to actively seek out sensationalist cases and have the urge to exercise heroic interventions. They have only just joined the troika of Power politics in Pakistan but havn't fully understood the consequences of their actions. Each day Pakistan transmits a shock-wave - to the international media because the judiciary are involved in another high profile case which ends in absolutely no tangible results.
So thing is when all is said and done - when the judiciary and all such institution have such big skeletons in their closets they loose the moral authority to hold accountable other institution or individuals as the whole thing starts to look like a witch hunt which destabilizes the country - something that we can ill-afford as of now.

 

[blain2]

I would caution everyone and remind everyone not to say anything untoward towards the Hon'able judges. Who have this honor by law. If you disagree with their decision, disagree with civility.

Does the civility not extend to private citizens?

 

[Sedqal]

The country broke in two because of ZAB, not Yahya. The latter became the fall guy solely because he could not get Bhutto to accede to what was right, which was, let Mujeeb rule. So lets be very clear about putting the blame where it squarely sits. You must know the famous adage, "history is written by the victors", so in this case, Bhutto was the victor and Yahya lost out and Bhutto wrote the history which made him look better.

The Balochistan problem is not due to the Pakistan Army. What stopped ZAB, NS, Benazir from fixing it permanently? The action against Bugti did not happen in a vacuum. There was already agitation from way beyond at the behest of various nawabs.

Lastly, prove Musharraf's crime first before calling him a criminal. Last I checked, even in our legal system, one's guilt had to be ascertained before considering them a criminal.

Agreed on the paper being a "Discipline/framework", however the litmus test is whether this very same Supreme Court goes back to that issue of 1999, or just tries to pick things which keep it from self-probing its own role and guilt in military takeovers.

- Yahya was the head of state and buck stops at him. ZAB has been made a scapegoat. Was ZAB receiving first hand info about East Pk from ISI/ MI and other agencies? Was ZAB responsible for starting a military operation? Did ZAB failed to gauge the severity of situation? It was a martial law and ZAB was nothing, all the decision making power rested with Yahya. IF he was so dumb that after having these powers at his disposal he failed to tackle ZAB then fault lies with whole PA, the nation didn't put him up there to run the state Army did.

- Bugti was agitating during NS era too. NS being the politician was able to bring him to negotiation table. NS realized back then that using force will result in alienating the whole Baluch population. How much did Bugti demand? It was peanuts if compared to what we are spending on security operations today with biggest price being the alienation of Baluchs. Musharraf two days back in an interview proudly claimed that Baluchistan was not East Pakistan and Army is present there so its never going to separate. Little does that dimwit understand that if we have to place a gun at Baluchs to stay with Pakistan, the reason for Pakistan ceases to exist.

- Any person (or group of persons) who overthrow an elected Govt and broke the constitution is the worst of criminals. Any army man who took part in this is a criminal, he has back stabbed us and he is a traitor to this nation. If any army men who proudly jumped over the walls of PM house or tactically brought PTV to its knees is reading it > You are a criminal who has betrayed the confidence this nation put into you, you should be ashamed of the role you have played in bringing this nation to the sorry state it is in.

- Supreme court has long overcome the guilt of being a yes man to military dictators.

 

[Jango]

his house has been called a sub jail now. I thought he was supposed to face all court decisions fully headed and not run away from court.

his lawyer is saying he didnt run he went under govt security. So govt protected a court criminal.

IMO that is what the police wanted all along, police was of the opinion that he would be a big security risk in a jail hence his house has been given status of sub jail.

 

[Awesome]

IMO that is what the police wanted all along, police was of the opinion that he would be a big security risk in a jail hence his house has been given status of sub jail.

In Pakistan law is so easy. Declare his house sub-jail, then his car, then just to avoid the hassle, his shoes

Problem solved.

 

[Jango]

In Pakistan law is so easy. Declare his house sub-jail, then his car, then just to avoid the hassle, his shoes

Problem solved.

We may disagree with it, but it is the law! Just like 62 and 63!

A sub jail is never a sub jail...

I think now the IHC will also ask clarifications from the Police.