Pakistani daily concerned over India's hiked defence budget

[HariPrasad]

Over-implication, incredible oversimplification of such a complicated , convoluted topic.
Nuclear weapons cannot eliminate war, it never did and never will. And this fact was proved to us by non other than the hero of Pakistan, Musharraf with his Kargil campaign. In all honesty, this proved to the IA the possibility of war under a nuclear overhang. This idea was yours, but now has been entrenched within and studied with extreme depth by the IA.

But even over that, the IA has been practicing for war in a nuclear battlefield since 1980s. The planning has focused on reducing the density of forces in any area to reduce the impact of a TNW strike. This alone shows that the IA is willing to take a nuke strike and still keep fighting. Furthermore, all IA mechanized and armored regiments are fully mobile through a NBC contaminated battlefield.

In short the willingness of the IA to fight under a nuclear overhang or if heaven forbid a TNW strike is still very strong. This is similar to the USSR plans, wherein the forces were expected to fight a war with tac-nukes.

You might speak about the hesitation in the political system in India to fight such a war, but as long as the generals do not think the war as an impossible option, the possibility of war will always exist.

This is a superb analysis. My regards.

 

[Omega007]

Over-implication, incredible oversimplification of such a complicated , convoluted topic.
Nuclear weapons cannot eliminate war, it never did and never will. And this fact was proved to us by non other than the hero of Pakistan, Musharraf with his Kargil campaign. In all honesty, this proved to the IA the possibility of war under a nuclear overhang. This idea was yours, but now has been entrenched within and studied with extreme depth by the IA.

But even over that, the IA has been practicing for war in a nuclear battlefield since 1980s. The planning has focused on reducing the density of forces in any area to reduce the impact of a TNW strike. This alone shows that the IA is willing to take a nuke strike and still keep fighting. Furthermore, all IA mechanized and armored regiments are fully mobile through a NBC contaminated battlefield.

In short the willingness of the IA to fight under a nuclear overhang or if heaven forbid a TNW strike is still very strong. This is similar to the USSR plans, wherein the forces were expected to fight a war with tac-nukes.

You might speak about the hesitation in the political system in India to fight such a war, but as long as the generals do not think the war as an impossible option, the possibility of war will always exist.

Thanks for this no nonsense in-depth analysis.By the way,you a HALO fan??

 

[Didact]

Thanks for this no nonsense in-depth analysis.By the way,you a HALO fan??

Thanks, and yah, I'm a big fan of HALO.

 

[Omega007]

Thanks, and yah, I'm a big fan of HALO.

Good,then you've got another one like you.Actually I'm a big fan of First Person tactical shooters and of course,the tank combat simulator from ESim,Steel Beasts Pro PE.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Over-implication, incredible oversimplification of such a complicated , convoluted topic.
Nuclear weapons cannot eliminate war, it never did and never will. And this fact was proved to us by non other than the hero of Pakistan, Musharraf with his Kargil campaign. In all honesty, this proved to the IA the possibility of war under a nuclear overhang. This idea was yours, but now has been entrenched within and studied with extreme depth by the IA.

But even over that, the IA has been practicing for war in a nuclear battlefield since 1980s. The planning has focused on reducing the density of forces in any area to reduce the impact of a TNW strike. This alone shows that the IA is willing to take a nuke strike and still keep fighting. Furthermore, all IA mechanized and armored regiments are fully mobile through a NBC contaminated battlefield.

In short the willingness of the IA to fight under a nuclear overhang or if heaven forbid a TNW strike is still very strong. This is similar to the USSR plans, wherein the forces were expected to fight a war with tac-nukes.

You might speak about the hesitation in the political system in India to fight such a war, but as long as the generals do not think the war as an impossible option, the possibility of war will always exist.

Adding to that for this the same purpose india has started making Self contained army groups which has it own Armoured / Air defence / and Attack chopper / lift choppers etc capability and do not depend on other units and can fight in NBC environment.

Mobile Aakash G2A missile is in that direction/ buying Combat chopper is for same purpose.

 

[Chanakya's_Chant]

While Pakistan following its own, have managed to reduce the numerical superiority of Indian armed forces from 4:1 in past to 2:1 today in the limited resources.

Please explain how?

 

[alpha q]

Actually Nukes were Acquired to Avoid any future Bloody Conventional War so No matter how much conventional Weapons India acquire they can never offset Pakistani Nuclear Capacity with latest Delivery mechanism.
What ever Possible Conventional weapons available to India today cannot Pacify the Pakistani Nuclear Capable Submarines, Silos, Mobile Launch Platforms and Nuclear strike capable jets
So basically Indian Defense Growth is aimed for export market and power projection as a regional power. But India can never overpower Pakistan for an Invasion now. Thats a reality. And Indian Establishment also knows it as well. Sadly Common Indian and Pakistan Blow many sorts of drums to Satisfy there own Nationalistic Egoes, Realities are very different.
And Quite frankly there is no need to go to war and destroy each other country as well.
So cheers. If Soviet Union vs USA and South Korea VS North Korea can survive without going to war. Pakistan and India can surely Go Along nicely.

If that's the case no country would invest in enhancing their conventional capacities, imagine a limited war or skirmish only conventional capacities would give anyone upperhand. Its not like india took out one pak batallion n pak straight way get to a whole out nuking spree taking out indian cities. In today's world only limited wars are possible with the presence of unsc n all. No one can imagine a nuke war its unrealistic or chances are one in hundred.

 

[Zhukov]

If that's the case no country would invest in enhancing their conventional capacities, imagine a limited war or skirmish only conventional capacities would give anyone upperhand. Its not like india took out one pak batallion n pak straight way get to a whole out nuking spree taking out indian cities. In today's world only limited wars are possible with the presence of unsc n all. No one can imagine a nuke war its unrealistic or chances are one in hundred.

Nukes are not some thing any one can get his hands on every other day so your first argument is invalid.
Secondly we are perfectly capable to thwart any indian attempt of aggression now. The Nuclear program was started at a time when india had 1/4 numerical superiority to Pakistan that is only 1/2 now. And there was that huge communist threat looming in the western border and soviet union couod have easily over powered Pakistan.
And secondly india had already acquired Nukes so wordere were forced to counter this new threat.
and yes a limited engagement is no problem. India is good force but currently is not capble to overpower Pakistan

 

[Zhukov]

Please explain how?

cmon. you are using internet go compare Military hardware, Tanks, APCs,MRLS, Artillery Howitzers, ,Infantry soldiers on duty and reserve, Airforce, Weapons manufacturing and acquiring capacity, Stretegic forces, nuclear stockpile, logistics, Military aviation and all other stuff. Do i need to list them all here?
you can easily find the numbers of both sides (Current not future) and compare.

 

[Chanakya's_Chant]

cmon. you are using internet go compare Military hardware, Tanks, APCs,MRLS, Artillery Howitzers, ,Infantry soldiers on duty and reserve, Airforce, Weapons manufacturing and acquiring capacity, Stretegic forces, nuclear stockpile, logistics, Military aviation and all other stuff. Do i need to list them all here?
you can easily find the numbers of both sides (Current not future) and compare.

India #4 - Pakistan #15

Global Firepower Military Ranks - 2014

 

[Echo_419]

Please explain how?

Source
www.Wetdreams.co/impossible/shit

 

[Zhukov]

Over-implication, incredible oversimplification of such a complicated , convoluted topic.
Nuclear weapons cannot eliminate war, it never did and never will. And this fact was proved to us by non other than the hero of Pakistan, Musharraf with his Kargil campaign. In all honesty, this proved to the IA the possibility of war under a nuclear overhang. This idea was yours, but now has been entrenched within and studied with extreme depth by the IA.

But even over that, the IA has been practicing for war in a nuclear battlefield since 1980s. The planning has focused on reducing the density of forces in any area to reduce the impact of a TNW strike. This alone shows that the IA is willing to take a nuke strike and still keep fighting. Furthermore, all IA mechanized and armored regiments are fully mobile through a NBC contaminated battlefield.

In short the willingness of the IA to fight under a nuclear overhang or if heaven forbid a TNW strike is still very strong. This is similar to the USSR plans, wherein the forces were expected to fight a war with tac-nukes.

You might speak about the hesitation in the political system in India to fight such a war, but as long as the generals do not think the war as an impossible option, the possibility of war will always exist.

WTH is wrong with you guys?
what kind of banana analyst will call the sector limited kargil conflict as war.
And we have changed our doctrine from engaing into an arms race to containment.
But if some one still want to persist that India is capable to conventionally overpower Pakistan then such Warmoungerers are welcomed to try.And we will see how your infantry and armoured batallions will survive the salvoof battle field range BMs (and we have thousands of them) not adding the Battlefield tactical nukes(that will only annihilate aggressive forces and not cities of enemy hence no colleteral demage).
our doctrine is not offence and we by no mean want to cross indian bordersand attack them. But if indians persist they are capable then believe what makes you happy.
We have no intention to attack any neibour. But We have full right to decimate any force crossing our national borders.


For the numbers comparison of whole army is not possible in one thread. i will give a litmus test here of basic weapons.


Lets consider Tanks first that are spearhead of Ground offensive in conventional warfare enviornment.
1000 T90s
2400T72 and some
700 T55

In total 4100 Tanks in there armoured force and thats all
and you assume you can overpower Pakistan with this force,Even if all of the armour is pushed into Pakistan(That is ofcource not possible)

Against Pakistan Armoured force of
500 Alkhalid
400 T80UD
1200 Alzarar
300 T85 II
400 T69
Thats 2800 tanks in total all capable of Firing Depleted uranium Rounds and Baktar shikan ATGMs ( not counting the reserve pattons and t54/55)




Now the Gunships on both sides(not future only present)
India (cannot find a proper source here, correct me if i am wrong)
24 HAL Rudra
20 Mi 35 Hinds

and Pakistan
50 AH1 Cobra
6 Eurocopter Fennec




Infantry Force(Active, not reserve)
India 1,130,000
Pakistan 560,000




Airforce
India-(Total 762)
Air superiority(194)
194 Su30

Multirole(56)
56 Mig29

Strike(49)
49 Mirage 2000

Interceptor(254)
254 Mig21

GroundAttack(209)
79 Mig27
130 Jaguar

Supported by 194 Trainers
Hawk 78
Kiran 81
Pilatus 35

Pakistan-(Total 469)
Multirole(126)
50 JF17 thunders
76 F16 figbting Falcons

Interceptors(186)
186 F7

Strike(75)
75 Mirage 3

Ground Attack(82)
82 Mirage 5



supported by 245 Trainers
146 Mushaq and super Mushaq
60 K8 karakoram
39 Cesna Tweet


Now please live in present dear bro. Pak force is not for attacking india but can thwart any indian agression. case closed. And the way i see it, You are trying to complex a pretty simple matter to prove your case that is clearly evident otherwise.

 

[Didact]

Secondly we are perfectly capable to thwart any indian attempt of aggression now. The Nuclear program was started at a time when india had 1/4 numerical superiority to Pakistan that is only 1/2 now. And there was that huge communist threat looming in the western border and soviet union couod have easily over powered Pakistan.
And secondly india had already acquired Nukes so wordere were forced to counter this new threat.
and yes a limited engagement is no problem. India is good force but currently is not capble to overpower Pakistan

Again, abject ignorance about modern warfare leading to bold, sweeping statements. You are hooked on numbers, without attempting to understand how those numbers are intended to be employed by both sides. I do not wish to write a long essay on this topic so will provide just a few points:

The IA does not intend to fight a broad front offensive, i.e. 1 brigade v/s 1 brigade or 1 Division v/s 1 Division. By virtue of being the attacker, the IA can and will choose its area of offensives and has thus the flexibility of imposing a localized superiority of anywhere from 3:1 to 5-6:1.

Now, the bluster of CSD or Proactive defense doctrine apart, it essentially entails a highly mobile warfare led by armored and mechanized/motorized formations attacking vulnerable/unexpected positions and exploiting any breakthrough by rapid infiltration of supporting forces. For this the IA has 3 strike corps (6 armored and mechanized divisions) and 8 armored groups. Do note that each of the armored groups could have as much as 36 Attack helis i.e. nearly equal to the entire Pakistani AH1 fleet.

In short the IA has 14 attack assets (6+8). In comparison the PA has 2 armored divisions and 2 mechanized divisions (motorized divisions by today's standards), i.e. a total of 4 attack/counterattack assets. Keeping 4 attack assets for holding your 4 strike divisions, you are now looking at 10 attack assets available to the IA to cut into Pakistan for which PA has no solution. by statistics it's a 3.5:1 advantage, but in reality it becomes a 10:0 advantage in favor of IA.

So do take the supposed numerical closeness with a truck load of salt. I could provide more, but am too lazy.

WTH is wrong with you guys?
what kind of banana analyst will call the sector limited kargil conflict as war.
And we have changed our doctrine from engaing into an arms race to containment.
But if some one still want to persist that India is capable to conventionally overpower Pakistan then such Warmoungerers are welcomed to try.And we will see how your infantry and armoured batallions will survive the salvoof battle field range BMs (and we have thousands of them) not adding the Battlefield tactical nukes(that will only annihilate aggressive forces and not cities of enemy hence no colleteral demage).
our doctrine is not offence and we by no mean want to cross indian bordersand attack them. But if indians persist they are capable then believe what makes you happy.
We have no intention to attack any neibour. But We have full right to decimate any force crossing our national borders.


For the numbers comparison of whole army is not possible in one thread. i will give a litmus test here of basic weapons.


Lets consider Tanks first that are spearhead of Ground offensive in conventional warfare enviornment.
1000 T90s
2400T72 and some
700 T55

In total 4100 Tanks in there armoured force and thats all
and you assume you can overpower Pakistan with this force,Even if all of the armour is pushed into Pakistan(That is ofcource not possible)

Against Pakistan Armoured force of
500 Alkhalid
400 T80UD
1200 Alzarar
300 T85 II
400 T69
Thats 2800 tanks in total all capable of Firing Depleted uranium Rounds and Baktar shikan ATGMs ( not counting the reserve pattons and t54/55)




Now the Gunships on both sides(not future only present)
India (cannot find a proper source here, correct me if i am wrong)
24 HAL Rudra
20 Mi 35 Hinds

and Pakistan
50 AH1 Cobra
6 Eurocopter Fennec




Infantry Force(Active, not reserve)
India 1,130,000
Pakistan 560,000




Airforce
India-(Total 762)
Air superiority(194)
194 Su30

Multirole(56)
56 Mig29

Strike(49)
49 Mirage 2000

Interceptor(254)
254 Mig21

GroundAttack(209)
79 Mig27
130 Jaguar

Supported by 194 Trainers
Hawk 78
Kiran 81
Pilatus 35

Pakistan-(Total 469)
Multirole(126)
50 JF17 thunders
76 F16 figbting Falcons

Interceptors(186)
186 F7

Strike(75)
75 Mirage 3

Ground Attack(82)
82 Mirage 5



supported by 245 Trainers
146 Mushaq and super Mushaq
60 K8 karakoram
39 Cesna Tweet


Now please live in present dear bro. Pak force is not for attacking india but can thwart any indian agression. case closed

As I said in my previous post, you're all about numbers. Well whatever pleases you.

 

[Zhukov]

India #4 - Pakistan #15

Global Firepower Military Ranks - 2014

See my Post number 88. GFP rankings are made considering all facotrs including defence spendings Power projection defence industry available man power and industrial base and economy. It does not indicate simply which force is how much stronger then the other.
So you believe by this rating that Indian Military is stronger then Engoand Germany Israel and Japan?
and Pakistan have a weaker army compared to Egypt?
You are welcome

 

[Echo_419]

WTH is wrong with you guys?
what kind of banana analyst will call the sector limited kargil conflict as war.
And we have changed our doctrine from engaing into an arms race to containment.
But if some one still want to persist that India is capable to conventionally overpower Pakistan then such Warmoungerers are welcomed to try.And we will see how your infantry and armoured batallions will survive the salvoof battle field range BMs (and we have thousands of them) not adding the Battlefield tactical nukes(that will only annihilate aggressive forces and not cities of enemy hence no colleteral demage).
our doctrine is not offence and we by no mean want to cross indian bordersand attack them. But if indians persist they are capable then believe what makes you happy.
We have no intention to attack any neibour. But We have full right to decimate any force crossing our national borders.


For the numbers comparison of whole army is not possible in one thread. i will give a litmus test here of basic weapons.


Lets consider Tanks first that are spearhead of Ground offensive in conventional warfare enviornment.
1000 T90s
2400T72 and some
700 T55

In total 4100 Tanks in there armoured force and thats all
and you assume you can overpower Pakistan with this force,Even if all of the armour is pushed into Pakistan(That is ofcource not possible)

Against Pakistan Armoured force of
500 Alkhalid
400 T80UD
1200 Alzarar
300 T85 II
400 T69
Thats 2800 tanks in total all capable of Firing Depleted uranium Rounds and Baktar shikan ATGMs ( not counting the reserve pattons and t54/55)




Now the Gunships on both sides(not future only present)
India (cannot find a proper source here, correct me if i am wrong)
24 HAL Rudra
20 Mi 35 Hinds

and Pakistan
50 AH1 Cobra
6 Eurocopter Fennec




Infantry Force(Active, not reserve)
India 1,130,000
Pakistan 560,000




Airforce
India-(Total 762)
Air superiority(194)
194 Su30

Multirole(56)
56 Mig29

Strike(49)
49 Mirage 2000

Interceptor(254)
254 Mig21

GroundAttack(209)
79 Mig27
130 Jaguar

Supported by 194 Trainers
Hawk 78
Kiran 81
Pilatus 35

Pakistan-(Total 469)
Multirole(126)
50 JF17 thunders
76 F16 figbting Falcons

Interceptors(186)
186 F7

Strike(75)
75 Mirage 3

Ground Attack(82)
82 Mirage 5



supported by 245 Trainers
146 Mushaq and super Mushaq
60 K8 karakoram
39 Cesna Tweet


Now please live in present dear bro. Pak force is not for attacking india but can thwart any indian agression. case closed

@gslv mk3 All yours Sirje