Pakistani Ballistic Missiles: Indigenous Content & Development

[farhan_9909]

@farhan_9909
Yeah, both missiles were displayed in the same 23rd March military parade, on two separate vehicles moving in tandem.
The above one (top 2 photos with Chinese captions) is Shaheen-II on a Transporter, while the last one is another Shaheen-II on a Transport Erector Launcher.

This is what i meant

But some fanboys are claiming it to be m-18 of which even Dr carlo kopp claimed that no pic or even a basic design model is available to public apart from the specs of 1000-1200km range and only 10t weight compared to 2000-2500km range of shaheen II and more than 25t weight

 

[Bilal.]

@The Deterrent Dr. Samar used to say that the apogee of Shaheen 2 is 600-700 km which is consistent with ~3000 km range. Any comments on that?

 

[The Deterrent]

This is what i meant

But some fanboys are claiming it to be m-18 of which even Dr carlo kopp claimed that no pic or even a basic design model is available to public apart from the specs of 1000-1200km range and only 10t weight compared to 2000-2500km range of shaheen II and more than 25t weight

Exactly!

@The Deterrent Dr. Samar used to say that the apogee of Shaheen 2 is 600-700 km which is consistent with ~3000 km range. Any comments on that?

When and where did he say that?
Regardless, Shaheen-II's range is confirmed to be 2000 km.

 

[Bilal.]

Exactly!

When and where did he say that?
Regardless, Shaheen-II's range is confirmed to be 2000 km.

Very old tv and news paper interviews. He used to say it flies at 700 km rendering ABMs useless.

 

[The Deterrent]

Very old tv and news paper interviews. He used to say it flies at 700 km rendering ABMs useless.

Dr. Samar is a respectable scientist and the Father of Pakistan's Ballistic and Cruise Missile Program. That being said, from time to time he states some things which are incorrect but I consider them to be disinformation/propaganda on purpose to boost the morale of the people/military.
Sure thing that mid-course interceptors haven't been developed yet to take out targets that high but we both know that any ballistic missile is vulnerable to an terminal ABM shield unless equipped with MARV/Countermeasures.

It is also possible that you heard him wrong or the press messed it up.

 

[Bilal.]

Dr. Samar is a respectable scientist and the Father of Pakistan's Ballistic and Cruise Missile Program. That being said, from time to time he states some things which are incorrect but I consider them to be disinformation/propaganda on purpose to boost the morale of the people/military.
Sure thing that mid-course interceptors haven't been developed yet to take out targets that high but we both know that any ballistic missile is vulnerable to an terminal ABM shield unless equipped with MARV/Countermeasures.

It is also possible that you heard him wrong or the press messed it up.

Probably but that does not negate him quoting a 700km altitude in multiple interviews, ABM or no ABM.

 

[Bilal.]

Even other characteristics like weight/length/diameter is similar to ~3000km ranged missiles. Unless our propellant tech is far lagging.

 

[The Deterrent]

Probably but that does not negate him quoting a 700km altitude in multiple interviews, ABM or no ABM.

Do try to find and post the video/newspaper link.

Even other characteristics like weight/length/diameter is similar to ~3000km ranged missiles. Unless our propellant tech is far lagging.

They are similar to ~3000km range missiles which are much more advanced than Pakistani missiles. The weight is high because of use of maraging steel in both stages (no composites at all), and the propellent grains are of the basic geometrical design which have low efficiency.

 

[Bilal.]

Do try to find and post the video/newspaper link.

They are similar to ~3000km range missiles which are much more advanced than Pakistani missiles. The weight is high because of use of maraging steel in both stages (no composites at all), and the propellent grains are of the basic geometrical design which have low efficiency.

I have been searching but those old sources are not to be found on the net it seems...

 

[AUz]

@The Deterrent

Yar one technical question...

So Pakistani missiles/space vehicles (SLVs, if any) use/depend on GPS and other such systems for navigation. Isn't it a threat? America/West can just shut down their navigation tools for Pakistan and our missiles etc. will be just sitting ducks..or there is something I'm missing?

For a missile of medium-long ranges, don't you need satellites to guide it? If so, Pakistan doesn't have many satellites up there..so we are dependent on others and their navigation technology for our survival...Isn't this pathetic?

Or things don't work the way I am thinking they do?


Please clarify!

@Manticore @Hyperion @Xeric @Aeronaut and other senior members can chip in too to clarify things for the readers.

 

[Luftwaffe]

@The Deterrent

Yar one technical question...

So Pakistani missiles/space vehicles (SLVs, if any) use/depend on GPS and other such systems for navigation. Isn't it a threat? America/West can just shut down their navigation tools for Pakistan and our missiles etc. will be just sitting ducks..or there is something I'm missing?

For a missile of medium-long ranges, don't you need satellites to guide it? If so, Pakistan doesn't have many satellites up there..so we are dependent on others and their navigation technology for our survival...Isn't this pathetic?

Or things don't work the way I am thinking they do?


Please clarify!

Adoption of Beido I/II.

China to build additional Beidou satellite network stations in Pakistan

Although I do not agree with part of the article where it says..."American website Defensenews.com reported early May that Pakistani military experts were in favour of using the Chinese system, even though the availability of the signal could not be guaranteed in case of conflict."

Beido I/II can cover entire Pakistan and rest of Asia so its availability is certain and strong.

 

[AUz]

Adoption of Beido I/II.

China to build additional Beidou satellite network stations in Pakistan

Although I do not agree with part of the article where it says..."American website Defensenews.com reported early May that Pakistani military experts were in favour of using the Chinese system, even though the availability of the signal could not be guaranteed in case of conflict."

Beido I/II can cover entire Pakistan and rest of Asia so its availability is certain and strong.

Doesn't matter still.

The fact remains that we are dependent on others for our own survival.

Chinese aren't blind idiots. They are very interest-based people who don't have any friendships...ever. If it was in interest of China to shut down Pakistan's missile navigation signal..guess what? THEY WILL!

Its all about interests...

 

[The Deterrent]

@The Deterrent

Yar one technical question...

So Pakistani missiles/space vehicles (SLVs, if any) use/depend on GPS and other such systems for navigation. Isn't it a threat? America/West can just shut down their navigation tools for Pakistan and our missiles etc. will be just sitting ducks..or there is something I'm missing?

For a missile of medium-long ranges, don't you need satellites to guide it? If so, Pakistan doesn't have many satellites up there..so we are dependent on others and their navigation technology for our survival...Isn't this pathetic?

Or things don't work the way I am thinking they do?


Please clarify!

@Manticore @Hyperion @Xeric @Aeronaut and other senior members can chip in too to clarify things for the readers.

For ballistic missiles, GPS enhances accuracy. The systems are still good to go for delivering nuclear weapons with INS and Celestial Guidance,

 

[AUz]

For ballistic missiles, GPS enhances accuracy. The systems are still good to go for delivering nuclear weapons with INS and Celestial Guidance,

INS is like inbuilt system for navigation, right? Like Pakistani missiles will have Pakistani-build INS and it can guide a ballistic missile to a right location for nuclear strike---without having to depend on any "non-Pakistani" structure (like Satellite, computers whatever)...right? or wrong?

What is Celestial Guidance?

Sitaroon ko dekh k missile to nahi chalanay ka keh rahay?

 

[The Deterrent]

INS is like inbuilt system for navigation, right? Like Pakistani missiles will have Pakistani-build INS and it can guide a ballistic missile to a right location for nuclear strike---without having to depend on any "non-Pakistani" structure (like Satellite, computers whatever)...right? or wrong?

What is Celestial Guidance?

Sitaroon ko dekh k missile to nahi chalanay ka keh rahay?

Yes, INS is based on a combination of accelerometers and gyroscopes, and gives a CEP of 0.1% of range (figure for DF-11, Pakistani systems would have similar capability). All the components (INS, Flight computer etc) are built/sourced in Pakistan, so we are absolutely independent in launching a nuclear strike.

Shaheen-II has been speculated to have utilized celestial guidance for correction of trajectory after the boost phase.
From wikipedia:

Celestial guidance was first used in the American Snark missile (Nortronics stellar-inertial guidance) first flown on 06/08/1953. It uses star positioning to fine-tune the accuracy of the inertial guidance system after launch. As the accuracy of a missile is dependent upon the guidance system knowing the exact position of the missile at any given moment during its flight, the fact that stars are a fixed reference point from which to calculate that position makes this a potentially very effective means of improving accuracy. In the Trident system this was achieved by a single camera that was trained to spot just one star in its expected position (it is believed that the missiles from Soviet submarines would track two separate stars to achieve this), if it was not quite aligned to where it should be then this would indicate that the inertial system was not precisely on target and a correction would be made.