Pakistan totally failed to capitalize the technology transfer of the Agosta-90B Submarines.

[Genghis khan1]

Technology is rapidly evolving. Unless you have international level research universities, That can keep up with advancements in Tech, this ToT will go obsolete with time. Specially Incase of high tech stuff when every country is looking for an edge, 90B tech may not be making the cut anymore.

 

[khanasifm]

Technology is rapidly evolving. Unless you have international level research universities, That can keep up with advancements in Tech, this ToT will go obsolete with time. Specially Incase of high tech stuff when every country is looking for an edge, 90B tech may not be making the cut anymore.

The idea was pn will sell additional capacity t Middle East and south east Asia like Indonesia and Malaysia etc And pn will order more at lower cost but never happened
Further French were also competing and trying to sell next class past a90 ie scorpion to the same customers anyway

so project was conceived on poor research

 

[Genghis khan1]

The idea was pn will sell additional capacity t Middle East and south east Asia like Indonesia and Malaysia etc And pn will order more at lower cost but never happened
Further French were also competing and trying to sell next class past a90 ie scorpion to the same customers anyway

so project was conceived on poor research

Ya, I don’t think technology produces are that naive to give away their market. They most probably knew where the technology and market is headed, otherwise they would not have offered ToT.

 

[mikaal hassan]

Unfortunately, folks are still confusing "ToT" with "turnkey" manufacturing.

In the case of the Agosta 90B, the two are not the same.

Yes, KSEW gained the ability to construct the Agosta 90B, but it still relied on kits-of-material (KoM) from the OEM, DCNS/Naval Group. This is because Naval Group still owned the IP and design. So, each time the PN wants to build a new Agosta 90B, it'd need to get the KoMs from Naval Group. In turn, Naval Group works with the suppliers (i.e., for the steel, engine, electronics, etc) it wants, and Pakistan pays for it at the agreed price.

When the PN wanted additional submarines, Naval Group stopped offering the Agosta 90B, and it wanted the PN to move onto Marlin (i.e., an improved version of the Scorpene).

Ideally, the PN would have bought out the design rights to the Agosta 90B too so that it can work with the suppliers directly and keep manufacturing. Unfortunately, submarine design is a guarded secret, so even with an old design it won't let it go (though South Korea somehow got the design of the Type 209, which it's manufacturing on its own).

The MoDP said KSEW will build the 4 Hangor SSP using KoMs too. So, the situation on subs will not change, the PN will have to fund an original design to independently manufacture one. But, for what it's worth, Turkey's STM has offered us that opportunity.

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Sir i think as a nation we are the worst negotiator specially when we have got good relationships with Chinese South Korea ,Turks and South Africa and in most cases with EU NATIONS .we have got talent ,the people who can do hard work but we clearly lack short term and long term goals . Without a proper dedicated shipbuilding area we will always be buying off the shelf or Paying over the odds for another AGOSTA Style TOT
i was watching this short documentary about Germany NAVY during World war 2 how if they had build ships and submarines on time the war would have ended in a different way
may be we can learn from the Germans

 

[ziaulislam]

The idea was pn will sell additional capacity t Middle East and south east Asia like Indonesia and Malaysia etc And pn will order more at lower cost but never happened
Further French were also competing and trying to sell next class past a90 ie scorpion to the same customers anyway

so project was conceived on poor research

that was never the idea..
idea was simply procured 3-6 subs..follow on order wasnt done

 

[ali_raza]

Hi,

You are right---we did not fail---there were no orders for the 90B---. We gained the knowledge that we were supposed to---.

from wht i heard saudis were very enthusiastic about getting a pakistani made submarine
benefits of that would be it was to be manned by pakistanis and saudis combined
and the cost at which pakistan got agostas were reasonable but eventually french torpedoed the idea demanding over the roof prices for sub systems
i think we should have asked full tot from the start

the point wasn't to build more

the point was if it is damaged or needs repair Pakistan can do it in house

and even upgrades and overhaul can then be done in house

there was never a plan to buy more than 3

with Chinese its the same story, 8 and plus we build some at Karachi

one wonders then why PN is sending these boats to turkey for overhauling and upgrades
while systems can be integrated in house

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Bilawal was born so some sadqa was given which was equal to budget for Navy

Self-explanatory

Those Yellow cab scheme vehicles were stuff of legends

But unfortunately, that Sadqa was not given from a personal pocket so the results are still hanging in the middle. Don't know who's going to run the show out of "2 and a half-sister" after Zardari.
And on the other side, they have done nothing but a political benefit, and being a nation we are going to bare the deficits.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sadly 90's submarine now 25-28 years later the talent is close to or have retired

Hi,

Thru your comments some may understand why the french were so desperate to sell their Rafales to pakistan in the mid 2000's. They were losing aicraft mechanics because of no orders.

Now for the submarine---Pak navy shifted to the german sub---why would they do that---? When you are already trained on the Agosta 90 b---and the french ca sell the scorpene---why not to move forward for the scorpene rather than a different sub from a different manufacturer---

 

[Tomcats]

from wht i heard saudis were very enthusiastic about getting a pakistani made submarine
benefits of that would be it was to be manned by pakistanis and saudis combined

Did they really have interest? I'm fairly sure Saudis have access to a plethora of very good equipment from the west with no issue so not sure why they would approach Pakistan for it other than technical expertise or training.

 

[Safriz]

Periodic checks and maintenance of Agosta Submarines have been done in Pakistan , based on the Inside knowledge gained during construction. That saved a lot of money and time.
This is the only group photo ever released of Pakistan navy personnel under training at Cherbourg France.

Plus how was Babur SLCM integrated on Agosta? That was done in Pakistan by Pakistanis?
That too was based on experience gained during construction.

 

[ali_raza]

Did they really have interest? I'm fairly sure Saudis have access to a plethora of very good equipment from the west with no issue so not sure why they would approach Pakistan for it other than technical expertise or training.

yea they were cos of some un know capabilities we developed
u can’t get everything everywhere

 

[vishwambhar]

Agosta 90B is one hell of a deadly submarine even today..... it's really great news for Pakistan adversaries that Pakistan could till date procure only 3 of these subs.....

 

[Armchair]

"we should get full TOT" type argmuments are to me very small minded and intellectually weak thought processes. Sadly that is what is common among Muslims and desis of all flavor.

Getting TOT or anything like that isn't the issue. Having a mindset and a work ethic were you try new things, innovate, iterratively improve. Having such design and engineering teams, led by serious professionals chosen on merit. That is the problem.

The basic understanding of what is needed and what the problem is, is so weak, and the mindset so screwed up, that no amount of "TOT from abroad" will change anything until you get the dumb goats with this "get TOT" mindset out, kick their backside out. Beat them with a rod. And tell them never to come back again.

Get your nepotism under control and find merit based ways to create engineering teams. But this will fall on deaf ears, as the dumb goats that are thinking the problem is "not getting TOT" are the dumb goats that are making the decisions.

 

[MastanKhan]

Did they really have interest? I'm fairly sure Saudis have access to a plethora of very good equipment from the west with no issue so not sure why they would approach Pakistan for it other than technical expertise or training.

Hi,

Young man---. The Agosta 90B was one of the most advanced submarine of its time in the arabian sea / indian ocean the gulf and the mediteranian---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

But the Agosta 90B was one of the finest in its class at that time---so---kickbacks aside---pak navy got a great product---.

Hi,

I have stated this many a times---and I will state it again---.

Never stop a major weapon purchase due to kick backs if you know and see that the weapon is a capable weapon---.

Throughout the periods of history---nations or tribes have paid exorbitant prices for much needed weapons---food items or safe passage.

We do the same in our daily lives as well---. Before I left for the US in the early 80's---I remember paying two to three times for a bag of sugar---.

Technology is rapidly evolving. Unless you have international level research universities, That can keep up with advancements in Tech, this ToT will go obsolete with time. Specially Incase of high tech stuff when every country is looking for an edge, 90B tech may not be making the cut anymore.

Hi,

It is a yes and no in a manner of understanding---. Weapons technology does not change as much with the changing times---. It used to lag behind maybe 5 to 8 years as compared to what was being used on the civilian side---the reason was it had to be tested for 'military grade' usage and then be certified for the usage as well---.

Military equipment is built on able and stable design platforms---. Meaning---once built---the equipment stays the same for a long period of time---. At first the training comes into play and at the same time servicing and usage comes into play as well as the supply line---.

So just because the Agosta 90 B got produced in the 2000's does not mean the other subs being produced now are leaps and bounds ahead of it.

An agosta vintage sub can compete successful against the next gen sub by a well trained captain and crew but possibly not against a two gen ahead submarine.

Pakistani poster must also understand that the Agosta 90 B was and is an extremely high quality machine---the other sub that was being considered---the english sub---they are already rotting in retirement by the users of those subs and here we are going thru the second phase of the life of this sub thru refurbishment and upgradation---.

That would tell you a lot about the quality of the build of this machine---. This is the 1969-1970 Toyota Corona of the automobile industry or the Timex watch which 'takes a licking and keeps on ticking'---.

If it was upto me---I would have shut my eyes close and signed on the dotted line in buying french warships and fighter aircraft---without giving it a second thought---.