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Pakistan to seek $20bn from IFIs to compensate for war on terror losses

yeah technically you guys are allies, but I doubt they put you in the same boat as Turkey, in my opinion though, I obviously couldn't tell you for sure.

Stop sitting on the fence and just say stright out what you have to say... :azn:

In all seriousness though, we should scald our pathetic leaders for going around with a begger bowl everytime a crisis hits... Gen (R) Farooq head of NDMA: National Disaster Management Authority was excellent following the recent quake and Islamabad should follow his Example.
 
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Stop sitting on the fence and just say stright out what you have to say... :azn:

In all seriousness though, we should scald our pathetic leaders for going around with a begger bowl everytime a crisis hits... Gen (R) Farooq head of NDMA: National Disaster Management Authority was excellent following the recent quake and Islamabad should follow his Example.

ok then, Pakistan does not deserve to be 'compensated', it can ask for help maybe but there is no question of a compensation, refer to my previous post if you need further elaboration.

Pakistan is not in the same boat as Turkey because Turkey wasn't propping up Saddam's regime. :D
 
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ok then, Pakistan does not deserve to be 'compensated', it can ask for help maybe but there is no question of a compensation, refer to my previous post if you need further elaboration.

Pakistan is not in the same boat as Turkey because Turkey wasn't propping up Saddam's regime. :D

Now thats more like it, altough i will beg to differ with you on this point... :D
 
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wasn't Pakistan responsible for nurturing the Taleban and its extremist elements?

AFAIK the Taliban were not involved in plotting or carrying out the 911 attacks, nor has it been shown that they were 'in the know' of the 911 plot.

Their flaw was playing out their tradition of 'protecting their guest' to an extreme, but even in that can we really say that the Taliban leadership were convinced that AQ carried out 911, when even now so many Muslims believe that 911 was a Mossad/CIA conspiracy?

I remember that some of the demands by the Taliban were of 'independent courts in Muslim countries' or some such thing.

You say the Taliban are 'extreme' but how are warlords responsible for runnign mini fiefdoms, massacring villages and towns on the basis of enmity and ethnicity not 'extreme'? Why are these warlords dealing death through drug labs and weapons and explosives smuggling operations not extreme?

If they are, then did the US not prop up its own 'extremists' to help advance its own cause? Did India not support these very extremists when she supported the Northern Alliance? And did India not get rewarded despite that support for extremism with a 'nuclear deal'?

Finally, why should Pakistan be blamed for making a bad choice, out of many other bad choices? Its not like there were any other parties with clean hands, and one must keep in perspective that before the Taliban started receiving massive Pakistani support, they had become popular and gained the support of many ordinary Pashtun and powerful Tribal and business leaders - Hamid Karzai and his family being one of them.

Pakistan sought to attain stability and influence in a war ravaged and violence wracked country on its West. That violence and chaos was not of our making, we only sought to minimize the damage it would do to Pakistan, by stabilizing Afghanistan in some fashion. So does the blame not fall upon the strategic allies of India, the Soviets, for starting the rot that led to the situation we have today?
 
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To continue on my point about Pakistan not being responsible for the mess we have regionally, and tie in the issue of 'compensation', the West loves to strut around acting like Pakisan has been done a huge favor through its aid. The fact is that the majority of that aid since OEF has been for logistical support and operations conducted in support of NATO troops in Afghanistan. So there has been no free lunch here.

In fact, as pointed out earlier in the thread, Pakistan is estimating its own losses due to the violence and terrorism at between 20 and 40 billion USD. The situation in Afghanistan is not the cause of one single party, the West and the Soviets played out their cold war rivalry here and left the place in pieces. Pakistan and India then carried out their own version of that, and eventually the chaos and neglect came back to haunt all sides, and more than anyone else it has affected Pakistan next door.

Fighting extremism in Pakistan is Pakistan's war, but the extremism she is fighting is the consequence of the meddling of many parties across the globe, and as such the statements of the West touting and criticizing Pakistan or the 'aid' it has received are arrogant and disingenuous.

That said, I haven't been in favor of 'blank cheque's' being written to the GoP, and I am still not in favor. The GoP needs to come up with specific programs in infrastructure, social services, education etc. that it can ask for investment in. It seems the GoP may be thinking along these lines, since some Pak officials have suggested that the recent FoP meeting involved discussions on the FoP investing in the 12 Billion Diamer Basha dam and other projects. This should be the way to go.
 
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Yeah the Americans and Indians supported their KNOWN drug trading warlords, Iranians supported their own Shia groups and its Pakistan that gets nailed for preferring a genuinely popular (at that time) group which bought the closest thing to stability that the Afghans have seen in decades.

There is no need for us to be sorry, if the Americans had behaved like proper decent allies and stayed committed to Afghanistan and Pakistan then we would never ever had to contend with any of this. We are where we are. Pakistan is a regional power and has the greatest stake in Afghanistan, so it’s about time we start showing some bloody backbone and start acting like it.
 
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Yeah the Americans and Indian supported their KNOWN drug trading warlords, Iranians supported their own Shia groups and its Pakistan that gets nailed for preferring a genuinely popular (at that time) group which bought the closest thing to stability that the Afghans have seen in decades.

There is no need for us to be sorry, if the Americans had behaved like proper decent allies and stayed committed to Afghanistan and Pakistan then we would never ever had to contend with any of this. We are where we are. Pakistan is a regional power and has the greatest stake in Afghanistan, so it’s about time we start showing some bloody backbone and start acting like it.

We have the most to gain and lose in Afghanistan, but I think the way forward should not be isolationist, or as S-2 puts it, ' a zero sum game'. Too many nations have interests in Afghanistan now, whether you agree with those interests or not, and therefore the solution to Afghanistan should be one that assures all nations that their interests will be taken care of, and their concerns addressed.

I think that on that count, there is still need for a more comprehensive regional policy.

Kasrkin, do read that B Rubin and Ahmed Rashid piece that discusses such a solution. I'll post the link here again.
 
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I certainly agree, I didn't mean to propose an isolationist agenda, only that we should make sure that our view of things is heard and our national security concerns considered. It’s not going to be easy, but I'm sure it can be done.

As of right now we have to fight this war alongside the Americans and NATO, the warlords under Karzi are as much of a problem as the solution in my view. We should not have to take BS from these warlords, and should instead operate in a way that will ensure the Americans appreciate our concerns or at the very least realize that we are going to prioritize our agendas.
 
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ok then, Pakistan does not deserve to be 'compensated', it can ask for help maybe but there is no question of a compensation, refer to my previous post if you need further elaboration.

Pakistan is not in the same boat as Turkey because Turkey wasn't propping up Saddam's regime. :D

Pakistan is not asking for aid or compensation as in money upfront. The economy of the country was impacted by the US invasion of Afghanistan and all of the instability it has brought on ever since.

Pakistan dealt with the ground reality in Afghanistan which was that the Pashtuns had knocked the crap out of the Northern Alliance and were in control of Kabul. Just like Turkey dealt with Saddam's Iraq (guess who was the biggest business partner of Iraq during the 8 years of sanctions against Iraq between GWI and GWII?) and you will understand what land-locked countries have to do to watch out for their interests.

Pakistan has all the right in the world to ask for investments and trade offsets because the current war is not one of Pakistan's making. While most outsiders like to condemn Pakistan (and most Indians join the bandwagon), up until 1999, the Taliban were actually stabilizing the country and US, the Saudis and the UAE were all on board in terms of the need to have a unified entity controlling Afghanistan. Nobody knew about AQ and they never served any of Pakistan's purposes so Taliban were not the bad guys always that they are made out to be now.

While one can say that Pakistan does not deserve any support, one should also realize that maybe if this war in Afghanistan had not dragged on for more than 5 years, Pakistan would not be asking for financial support in the form of investments.

Something that Indians don't realize in your dislike for all things Pakistanis is that Pakistan's fiscal and economic stability makes sense for India. If Pakistan were to go the way of Afghanistan, India can forget about all her dreams of becoming a major power because there would be too much instability both immediately outside and inside of India.

Lastly, one should appreciate the fact that both the Musharraf and the current governments are only asking for investments. They are not asking for aid upright which does not do much good. So in the end it makes sense for all those who have an interest in the stability of the region to help Pakistan out.
Helping Pakistan out proactively in a smart way (building out the country's infrastructure with investments) would actually be a more prudent step than one taken a few years down the road when there is utter chaos and instability in the region.

During the past years of Musharraf government, almost 80% of the financial support went into funding the CSF. 20% would be considered financial aid. This time around Pakistan is not asking for aid as such. Investment is what is being asked for which would energize the economy and help expand it. Thus far investment in Pakistan has been a winning proposition due to vastly relaxed and very investor friendly laws in place. Asking Pakistan to take on its own tribal areas and then not helping out an economy greatly impacted by the current situation is a grave mistake.
 
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To continue on my point about Pakistan not being responsible for the mess we have regionally, and tie in the issue of 'compensation', the West loves to strut around acting like Pakisan has been done a huge favor through its aid. The fact is that the majority of that aid since OEF has been for logistical support and operations conducted in support of NATO troops in Afghanistan. So there has been no free lunch here.

In fact, as pointed out earlier in the thread, Pakistan is estimating its own losses due to the violence and terrorism at between 20 and 40 billion USD. The situation in Afghanistan is not the cause of one single party, the West and the Soviets played out their cold war rivalry here and left the place in pieces. Pakistan and India then carried out their own version of that, and eventually the chaos and neglect came back to haunt all sides, and more than anyone else it has affected Pakistan next door.

Fighting extremism in Pakistan is Pakistan's war, but the extremism she is fighting is the consequence of the meddling of many parties across the globe, and as such the statements of the West touting and criticizing Pakistan or the 'aid' it has received are arrogant and disingenuous.

That said, I haven't been in favor of 'blank cheque's' being written to the GoP, and I am still not in favor. The GoP needs to come up with specific programs in infrastructure, social services, education etc. that it can ask for investment in. It seems the GoP may be thinking along these lines, since some Pak officials have suggested that the recent FoP meeting involved discussions on the FoP investing in the 12 Billion Diamer Basha dam and other projects. This should be the way to go.

As soon as you start going into the history of things, memories of Pakistan's detractors start becoming hazy...:rolleyes::disagree:
 
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