Pakistan survival without Kashmir???

[mujahideen]

We must try our best to somehow divert our water resources away from India and into Pakistan through China. Nothing is impossible in this world today. We might have to invest billions or trillions into this, but we must.

You are not understanding the ground realities here or the scope of the problem here. We cant divert those rivers because they flow in from India, they dont start or originate in Pakistan they are comming straight from India. The fact is India controls our water supply and we really cant do anything about it, nor can we ever do anything about it, unless we capture the area from India from where the water comes from, which will probably never happen.
Now as far as investing billions and trillions of dollars is concerned, I ask you where will we get the money from. I mean dont get me wrong I agree with you when you say we need to do something but lets be realistic here.

 

[Goodperson]

One cannot stop someones mind from weird thinking, Especially if it defies logic and always tend to justify the same by nuking neighbors to defend the same.

We change friends but not neighbors. However we can definitely change ourselves.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Its been more then fifty years since we both countries seperated and yet there have been no major contentions regarding water flow except for few row's over dams and the heights of the dams which were refered to world bank, as far as I know were we to be so callous and evil we could have done the act of cutting water long ago.

As far as nuking is concerned, shows your mindset and attitude, you might be willing to die but not everyone around you, so stop being putting forward such jingoism, why dont you design certain contingency plans in case of water shortage rather then thinking about nuking us, whats the point when it all gets over the very issue of water and your society will be destroyed, so be sane in your arguments.

I also find it amusing how you are assuming that China is at your beck and call and will undertake huge projects which require huge resources to divert water to you. It simply will not happen. Whay do you depend on them, what wil happen when the hostilities between Beijing and Delhi cease and friendship blooms, do you think they will be still there for you, welcome to the world of realpolitik. They need you, accepted but not at a huge expense of building huge waterways to feed you.

Insted if I were you and water was so important to me, I d rather solve the bilaterlal issue of Kashmir and negoitiate with a position of friendship rather then animosity and rabble rousing. That was what Musharaff had planned to do, he realised though Kashmir was important, it is always not above fellow Pakistanis who are more important to him.

cheers

 

[IceCold]

Negotiation is the only option.
The rivers are originating in their country, how can we question that?

One more reason why peace should be negotioated, rather than the hatred and war mentality.

First of all they are not originating from their country. Kashmir is a disputed terrority, having a control over a disputed terrority doesnt make it yours. Secondly you say nuking will be suecidal for both the countries, yes indeed it will be but have you ever thought what will happen if the rivers stop flowing, pakistan will become a desert and this is worst then nuking. Pakistan will not allow india simply to cut its water while we keep on negotiating, the case is with the international court about the authenticity of the indian claims for the dams being built inaccordance with the treaty however if all else fails and india continues to build them at the cost of water flowing towards pakistan, then we will be left with no option except to go to war. However that will be the last resort.

 

[MOSABJA]

What I think we should be realistic.I mean pointing of nukes is not every thing.

The problem is that our waters do come from India and they have hold over it.
It infact comes from our territory which is occupied but after every thing Indians are the De Facto rulers of Kashmir and thats where our rivers come from.

As far as Indus water treaty is concerned.I think that GROSS violation of the treaty would mean a declaration of war but indians are currently doing SMALL SCALE violation by building Wullar lake,Baglihar and Kishenganga.


The problem is that though India has not yet planned to divert the rivers but they definitely have this WILD CARD.Which they use and have Threatened to use when pakistan went to world bank on the issue of baglihar dam.Indian minister threatened to Scrap the Treaty.


For Pakistan the main concern should be destroy this INDIAN WILD CARD.
What are the possible ways.

1)Supporting Kashmir Jihad??

OR

2)Seeking Chinese help.Yes they have never said it.Nobody has talked about and there have been no feasibility reports about how as the PAKISTANI RIVERS like Indus,Sutlej originating in China can be diverting so as they reach pakistan without passing through Indian occupied Kashmir.BUT THIS COULD BE AN OPTION.

I talked to a Wapda engineer about this thing.Who said that with today's technology rivers can be diverted in any direction.But the cost on it depends upon the Land and Surface.

 

[solid snake]

2)Seeking Chinese help.Yes they have never said it.Nobody has talked about and there have been no feasibility reports about how as the PAKISTANI RIVERS like Indus,Sutlej originating in China can be diverting so as they reach pakistan without passing through Indian occupied Kashmir.BUT THIS COULD BE AN OPTION.

I talked to a Wapda engineer about this thing.Who said that with today's technology rivers can be diverted in any direction.But the cost on it depends upon the Land and Surface.

Exactly. People here are saying why depend on China. I say to them, why let India continue to have the ability to strangulate us by cutting of our jugular vein? In case India starts running short for water, it WILL violate the treaty. We cannot allow our 170 million people to be at the mercy of India.

What we need to do is covertly fund the construction of a dam or reservoir in Chinese territory, where the river originates. Then from there, build a pipeline that passes through Aksai Chin, and brings the water into Pakistan via the northern areas. By doing it secretly, India cannot present any proof that Pakistan is violating the Indus Water Treaty. China is not part of it, and it has a right to do whatever it wants with water in it's own territory. Then we can claim that we are infact buying the water from China, when really we'll only be paying a little bit of transit fee.



If we can build a pipeline to bring in gas from Iran, we can also build a pipeline to bring in water from it's source in China. This is a game of chess my friends. Currently India has the ability to turn our entire country into a desert, but if we block it's entry into Indian Occupied Kashmir, we can reverse the fortunes and starve Indian Held Kashmir

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

some people here can ridicule and disregard my statements all they want, but the fact of the matter is clear. if india attempts to divert the river, pakistan will resort to nuclear strikes. that is, if the useless UN fails to do anything about it.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

some people here can ridicule and disregard my statements all they want, but the fact of the matter is clear. if india attempts to divert the river, pakistan will resort to nuclear strikes. that is, if the useless UN fails to do anything about it.

Yes people will disregard your remarks because its nothing but Ostriches. Why is that tou think nuclear war is the be all and the end all of wars.It is not as simple as you make it to be, if it were so easy then why did not the Americans or Soviets not use them. Eat this no matter what rhetoric you post , the nuclear weapons are a deterant against our nuclear weapons alone not against any conventional or water disputes. thats it rest is blah blah and rhetori. Only a mad man in command will allow the use of nuclear weapons for such as dispute as water.These are issues that I see bringing us together rather then nuking each other, AND IF YOU STILL PERSIST BE OUR GUEST.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Exactly. People here are saying why depend on China. I say to them, why let India continue to have the ability to strangulate us by cutting of our jugular vein? In case India starts running short for water, it WILL violate the treaty. We cannot allow our 170 million people to be at the mercy of India.

What we need to do is covertly fund the construction of a dam or reservoir in Chinese territory, where the river originates. Then from there, build a pipeline that passes through Aksai Chin, and brings the water into Pakistan via the northern areas. By doing it secretly, India cannot present any proof that Pakistan is violating the Indus Water Treaty. China is not part of it, and it has a right to do whatever it wants with water in it's own territory. Then we can claim that we are infact buying the water from China, when really we'll only be paying a little bit of transit fee.

If only all we wish could come true. If it were as easy as you claim to be then why was it not planned or why was it not done already, believe me , such a project is enormusly expensive and Pakistans economy simply cannot bear it. Have you analysed the cost benifit analysis of such a project, ie the cost of such project with reference to the outcome , what will the price of water in relation to farming and agriculture.

If we can build a pipeline to bring in gas from Iran, we can also build a pipeline to bring in water from it's source in China. This is a game of chess my friends. Currently India has the ability to turn our entire country into a desert, but if we block it's entry into Indian Occupied Kashmir, we can reverse the fortunes and starve Indian Held Kashmir

Why not , theoritically man can reach pluto, whats stopping him , but It ain't happening my friend. India and China may not be bedfellows or the closest of allies but they certainly don't plan to be archrivals like India pakistan, China will never shell out or aid in such endevour, again it simply boils down to cost benifit analysis of whats the benifit it will receive and the only benifit I see in such a scenario is an escalation of tension between China and India and nothin esle, which we both desperately try to bring down, so it simply aint worth it

 

[solid snake]

If only all we wish could come true. If it were as easy as you claim to be then why was it not planned or why was it not done already, believe me , such a project is enormusly expensive and Pakistans economy simply cannot bear it. Have you analysed the cost benifit analysis of such a project, ie the cost of such project with reference to the outcome , what will the price of water in relation to farming and agriculture.

Why are you acting like it's impossible? Have you carried out a cost-benefit analysis either? It was not done already because Pakistan was keeping it's end of the Indus Water Treaty, and India was keeping it's word too. But now with India violating the agreement by building those disputed dams/reservoirs, we can see which direction this is moving in. India is starting to get more and more arrogant and over ambitious by the day. I can guarentee you that if Pakistan takes not action within a decade, India will practically suck Pakistan's rivers dry to meet it's own needs.


This is why it is imperative, to do whatever it takes to gain water independence from India. Project will no doubt be expensive, but we must do something. Only a feasability study can tell if it is possible right now or not. If we cannot meet the entire cost, we can take a loan from China to build it.

Why not , theoritically man can reach pluto, whats stopping him , but It ain't happening my friend. India and China may not be bedfellows or the closest of allies but they certainly don't plan to be archrivals like India pakistan, China will never shell out or aid in such endevour, again it simply boils down to cost benifit analysis of whats the benifit it will receive and the only benifit I see in such a scenario is an escalation of tension between China and India and nothin esle, which we both desperately try to bring down, so it simply aint worth it

Once again, what I am proposing is not rocket science. It's the construction of a simple dam/reservoir and a point in China and from there a simple pipeline to Pakistan, bypassing Indian Occupied Kashmir. And I am not saying China will fund it, Pakistan will, perhaps with the help of a Chinese loan. And believe it or not, China will seriously consider our request if we ask them. You Indians like to think Pakistan has no influence over any country in this world, but this is a matter of Pakistan's survival, something in which China itself has a massive stake.

You are not a Pakistani, so you cannot comprehend the sheer magnitude of the situation. You are seeing this through only the Indian POV, not Pakistan or China's. India is going to become America's **** in the region over the coming decades, and Pakistan will be China's little brother

 

[MIG_ACE]

Instead of nukes, one single, quick, unexpected airstrike by the PAF could destroy whatever dams India builds. If India decides to start a war over this, then we will have no choice but to fight to the death, and that will of course require the use of nukes in the end.

That's a childish proposition. Any air strike on Indian territory will certainly result in total war. Indians are not stupid enough to try and deliberately cause water shortages in pakistan. That would invite the ire of the entire international community.

 

[solid snake]

That's childish at best. Any air strike on Indian territory will certainly result in total war.

If you suck our rivers dry, we will have no choice but to initiate total war.

 

[MIG_ACE]

If you suck our rivers dry, we will have no choice but to initiate total war.

Who is sucking your rivers dry?? The baglihar dam did not violate the Indus water treaty. Pakistan had taken up the matter with the UNI believe and India wasn't asked to stop construction.


If we wanted to suck your rivers dry we wouldn't have signed the treaty in the first place.

 

[solid snake]

Who is sucking your rivers dry?? The baglihar dam did not violate the Indus water treaty. Pakistan had taken up the matter with the UNI believe and India wasn't asked to stop construction.


If we wanted to suck your rivers dry we wouldn't have signed the treaty in the first place.

Some components of the dam violate the IWT. Construction of this dam only started in 1999.

This gives India the ability to block Pakistans river in case of tension or war. Even the Swiss Engineer assigned to investigate the Pakistani objections asked India to reduce the pondage and height of the dam which clearly shows Indias ulterior motives in designing the dam the way they did.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Why are you acting like it's impossible? Have you carried out a cost-benefit analysis either? It was not done already because Pakistan was keeping it's end of the Indus Water Treaty, and India was keeping it's word too. But now with India violating the agreement by building those disputed dams/reservoirs, we can see which direction this is moving in. India is starting to get more and more arrogant and over ambitious by the day. I can guarentee you that if Pakistan takes not action within a decade, India will practically suck Pakistan's rivers dry to meet it's own needs.


This is why it is imperative, to do whatever it takes to gain water independence from India. Project will no doubt be expensive, but we must do something. Only a feasability study can tell if it is possible right now or not. If we cannot meet the entire cost, we can take a loan from China to build it.

I have not done the cost benifit analysis, but from seeing the terrain any one can understand why such a project would stand as an enginnering marvel. If it were feasable in the first place, whay hasn't your government or any independent source or thinktanks have any feasability analysis. Such a project will require decades to complete and what if India sees it as a threat to starve its people and stops the river befor you could even start it, say we stop it for two years ,the two years which alone be not enough to finalise the design alnalysis on paper, what will happen in such scenario and what is your contingency plan to supply water for least two years.

Once again, what I am proposing is not rocket science. It's the construction of a simple dam/reservoir and a point in China and from there a simple pipeline to Pakistan, bypassing Indian Occupied Kashmir

Yes constructing a dam across such a terrain is next only to rocket science in terms of civil engineering and cost, again I repeat if it were easy, it would have been done, do you think Pakistani establishment has for decades waited for your sudden awakening?

And I am not saying China will fund it, Pakistan will, perhaps with the help of a Chinese loan. And believe it or not, China will seriously consider our request if we ask them.

What is the loan you are talking about , such a project will requires billions, and loss of life, you can even talk to some army engineers on your side as to how difficult it is to even lay roads in such terrain. You are assuming China will consider your request, but popoint me out what will be the benifits thet will they wil realise,As far as I seeit they will gain only a more aggressive neighbour near their border and nothing else

You Indians like to think Pakistan has no influence over any country in this world, but this is a matter of Pakistan's survival, something in which China itself has a massive stake.

You don't have influence over China, but China has influence on you. Point me some instances where China on your behalf or on your beck and call has done anything against India. They did noy stand by you in any wars and what makes you think they will this time around when they have nothing to gain but a lot to loose.

Yes China has interests in Pakistan, no question about that, but the question is to what extent.As far as I see it they have already done enough for you by supplying technology and weapons , but expecting such a favour is way too out of the way for the interests you can offer them.

You are not a Pakistani, so you cannot comprehend the sheer magnitude of the situation. You are seeing this through only the Indian POV, not Pakistan or China's.

Yes I am not a Pakistani , neither is my view from Indian stand point. In fact you are being subjective while I have tried to be objective. Any rational mind your establishment will think in the sam lines as I do. Insted of going the long way around they would simply negotiate with India and thsi might even lead to end other conflicts and problems between us.

. India is going to become America's **** in the region over the coming decades, and Pakistan will be China's little brother

Yes you will be a little brother to China as it serves your interests for the moment, however we are not americans whore as you point out to be. The relations we share are mutual and we pay for the superior technology we want, we are just a ally just like Russia and Chaina have their differences yet stick on to a blok when they find common interests.

Cheers