Pakistan receives LD-10 Anti-radiation missiles

[Mrc]

Fair Enough

I always assumed we would end up keeping these batteries. After all, we ended up keeping the C602's and C803's which were shipped on an emergency basis to Pakistan.

As per recent public ststement from pm office they are about to sign a contract for these provided finances are sorted out

 

[Signalian]

You have had your fun with the other member

now back to business haha

With 24/7 surveillance by Indian AWACS with optimized algorithms to pick out low flying and even low RCS bogies (which India can test extensively during peacetime i.e right now...esp with Israeli cooperation)....India has a useful counter against the threat of long distance based strikes that seek to use cruise missiles (on top of what already is being developed/acquired for ballistic platforms). These algorithms (on top of using several real time advanced noise reduction filters) will use many of the components you are mentioning here.

A missile launched by pakistan will have a large defensive matrix and identification process in the long run to face with in India. India for now has a broad spectrum definition of what constitutes grounds for full retaliation....but I see this changing with time as India brings more technology and counters under its umbrella (though it may not do so officially). Its similar to how I believe NFU policy by India may also be more for peacetime prestige....I doubt India would forego an opportunity for a first strike on Pakistan nuclear assets using nuclear assets itself should a clear and relatively clean opportunity present itself....in the interest of saving many millions of civilian lives.

what will be the long distance target for Pak C-Missile or UAV or UCAV?

where will the 400km radius AWACS be placed, a rough idea of location ? circling around or changing location/sector? will IAF AWACS direct offensive ops inside Pak by IAF fighters? Coverage on Indian-Kashmir?

Have the AWACs and IAF radar sites been integrated for communication between them?

Can IAF AWACS control A2A missiles fired by MKI?

Jamming capabilities for PAF aircrafts entering India?

important, how are you so sure that the 400km radius will pick up everything:
Is the power distribution equal in all the radiated area by AWACS radar ?
what about clutter losses?are losses more in a populated area?
How much is radiated signal of radar affected with weather?

 

[Mrc]

Awacs is worst possible way to look for tree hugging cm.... looking from top all you are going to see is trees and mountains and deserts reflecting your radar back to you....certainly cannot track a low flying subsonic small cm...

 

[Basel]

indeed same applies to the italians.
so if you want.......lets say the meteor missile chances of it being approved is very high. the french may flip but who cares. heck you can use the asraam as opposed the a-darter it has a greater range near similar to the mica.

ASRAAM could be BVR of 3rd Gen fighters allowing them better intercept capabilities although it is less maneuverable then its current competitors

 

[Arsalan]

You have had your fun with the other member

now back to business haha



what will be the long distance target for Pak C-Missile or UAV or UCAV?

where will the 400km radius AWACS be placed, a rough idea of location ? circling around or changing location/sector? will IAF AWACS direct offensive ops inside Pak by IAF fighters? Coverage on Indian-Kashmir?

Have the AWACs and IAF radar sites been integrated for communication between them?

Can IAF AWACS control A2A missiles fired by MKI?

Jamming capabilities for PAF aircrafts entering India?

important, how are you so sure that the 400km radius will pick up everything:
Is the power distribution equal in all the radiated area by AWACS radar ?
what about clutter losses?are losses more in a populated area?
How much is radiated signal of radar affected with weather?

add to this the ridicilious idea of using AWACS to track CM in Pak-India scenario! Even in theory all those losses in a near urban setup cannot be ignore let alone in practical use.
A Pak India war will be an affair with no winners, the only point will be who have more to lose

 

[R!CK]

LD-10 ARM

SIPRI reports that Pakistan has received 50 (out of 100 ordered) LD-10 anti-radiation missiles from China in 2014 and 2015. These missiles were ordered in 2011.

Source: SIPRI

Congradz guys!

 

[nomi007]

good addition

 

[war&peace]

ARM can destroy Radar and guidance system of enemy S-400, not the S- 400 missile system and tubes. If the enemy has integrated battle field communications with net centric warfare system then a redundant radar or guidance system can be in place and used for S-400.

Secondly, its already very difficult to get in range of S-400 through air and destroy its radar or S-400 missile system itself.

Once you have destroyed the radar then rest is easy .

 

[Nilgiri]

what will be the long distance target for Pak C-Missile or UAV or UCAV?

Not entirely sure, but phalcon sized AWACS performing in this role will be well within Indian airspace protecting cities, strategic assets and supply chains etc... They will be afforded the maximum defense from other IAF and army aviation assets too.

I am talking of course in the future when there are at least 5 of them....and which will be ramped up to larger numbers with time.

It will be the embraer AWACS that will provide more flexible tactical coverage for Indian forward forces I would imagine....the aircraft itself being a smaller target, more maneuverable (for evasion) while still packing a real punch etc.... How those will be integrated in the system I am talking about (a look down defensive matrix) will remain to be seen since their capabilities are still being developed.

where will the 400km radius AWACS be placed, a rough idea of location ? circling around or changing location/sector? will IAF AWACS direct offensive ops inside Pak by IAF fighters? Coverage on Indian-Kashmir?

Assuming 5 AWACS with 3 in the air at any time....I would imagine something like this:

With gentle turn holding patterns for each one till they are rotated by a replacement. The smaller AWACS platforms will add on top of this as will any additional large Phalcon sized AWACS the IAF gets beyond the 5 it will be operating in the near future. I would assume it would be the smaller ones that would be changing sector given operational needs within IND or PAK airspace....but the phalcons themselves are more strategic I would imagine and must not venture into Pakistan airspace I think.

Some protection will be afforded by the northern most sentry to JnK (esp chicken neck area), but JnK does not have the level of strategic assets and population to defend as the other areas....so with 5 strategic AWACS, I do not see one being dedicated there purely. But it could potentially have a smaller one or two there depending on what type of operations the army want to conduct from there against the opponent. Maybe with time as sentry numbers are increased it will get a large strategic dedicated platform too....but right now I don't think so.

Have the AWACs and IAF radar sites been integrated for communication between them?

I believe so.

Can IAF AWACS control A2A missiles fired by MKI?

Yes this was tested, demonstrated and confirmed earlier.

Jamming capabilities for PAF aircrafts entering India?

Its potent capability that IAF should not underestimate. But the Phalcon AWACS has the nature of AESA going for it which is very difficult to jam given its multi-band, low amplitude spectrum....and the fact it can act as PESA at any time should the need arise. I believe the PAF doctrine would focus more on using its air assets to counter intruder AWACS (which would be more likely to be the embraer platforms) and rather target the strategic ones with AWACs killing missiles when the opportunity presents itself (with a lot of finger crossing involved).

How the situation evolves with the years to come as more technologies come online (Ga-N vs Ga-As adoption, particular module upgrades NATO does for the E-3 which I am following closely and also how HARM seekers improve) remains to be seen. It will be a cat and mouse game like anything else.

important, how are you so sure that the 400km radius will pick up everything:
Is the power distribution equal in all the radiated area by AWACS radar ?
what about clutter losses?are losses more in a populated area?
How much is radiated signal of radar affected with weather?

Excellent. These were the points I expected someone to finally bring up when I quoted 400 km as the range.

Firstly its a range to horizon at maximum service ceiling. This is the maximum feasible pick up range (and you have to remember that an aircraft endurance sweet zone is not at its service ceiling....but thats another discussion for another time since we are talking maximum potential capability here).

Its effective range for ground hugging cruise missile tracking will of course be some fraction of this 400km...which is unknown and will probably remain so (it is dependent on the algorithm quality esp SNR processing channels). But I would imagine the Israelis have developed some pretty potent ones that the DRDO and others would have optimised for Indian conditions/use.

I would also imagine all clutter/noise/weather effects will be tested extensively in peace time against real low flying bogies and refine the algorithms as needed. It will definitely not be a "first time" experience for the AWAC operators during a potential conflict.

Awacs is worst possible way to look for tree hugging cm.... looking from top all you are going to see is trees and mountains and deserts reflecting your radar back to you....certainly cannot track a low flying subsonic small cm...

Actually thats a wrong assertion. You should read up more on even legacy performance of AWAC systems against cruise missiles (even in ground hugging mode). With an AESA radar, operating in tandem with other AESA radars.....it would require a very stealthy missile to stand even a chance because of ISAR effects from its velocity. I will have to dig up some papers later for you to get what I mean here.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vergennes @Water Car Engineer

 

[Mrc]

Rcs of tomahawk is 0.05... its 1960s design ...most modern groud hugging missiles have rcs of 0.01 or lower....


DETECTION range for most modern awacs against 0.01 m2 target is 22 km in clean shot without ground clutter... even tomahawk cannot be tracked through ground clutter only detected

RA'Aad has stealthy design on top of size...babur is alot smaller than tomahawk...

To cover 15000 km border with 22km detection range u will need 60 awcs flying 24/7 ...but thats only detection ...u cannot track them through mountains buildingdls and trees and rogh ground even through desert for obvious reason....

Do the maths

Actually thats a wrong assertion. You should read up more on even legacy performance of AWAC systems against cruise missiles (even in ground hugging mode). With an AESA radar, operating in tandem with other AESA radars.....it would require a very stealthy missile to stand even a chance because of ISAR effects from its velocity. I will have to dig up some papers later for you to get what I mean here.

As above .. and please post papers tgat show CM in hugging mode can tracked....

 

[Nilgiri]

As above .. and please post papers tgat show CM in hugging mode can tracked....

You need only look up the module upgrading of the E-3 sentry using such upgraded systems for PDNES and PDES scans (way back in the 80s and 90s):

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1989/1989 - 2614.PDF

There are more detailed papers on this upgrade but they are paid subscription only and subject to copyright etc so I wont post them here. You can do your own search to see whats available in google.

You can easily verify that such systems get continually upgraded as new threat sources become apparent:

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/ar...ild-power-amplifier-for-e-3-sentry-radar.html

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/e3awacs/

Suffice to say a next generation AWACS like phalcon (considered the best in the world for a reason) would have a capability far in excess of the legacy E-3 sentries to begin with.....with algorithm refinement and upgrades backed up by hard cold testing by both the Israelis and Indians...anyone without any bias can see it will be a tough ask to get past a defensive matrix composed of such look down radars.

I will post a more detailed collection of ISAR papers later. I have to track them down first.....its been a while.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Not entirely sure, but phalcon sized AWACS performing in this role will be well within Indian airspace protecting cities, strategic assets and supply chains etc... They will be afforded the maximum defense from other IAF and army aviation assets too.

I am talking of course in the future when there are at least 5 of them....and which will be ramped up to larger numbers with time.

It will be the embraer AWACS that will provide more flexible tactical coverage for Indian forward forces I would imagine....the aircraft itself being a smaller target, more maneuverable (for evasion) while still packing a real punch etc.... How those will be integrated in the system I am talking about (a look down defensive matrix) will remain to be seen since their capabilities are still being developed.



Assuming 5 AWACS with 3 in the air at any time....I would imagine something like this:

With gentle turn holding patterns for each one till they are rotated by a replacement. The smaller AWACS platforms will add on top of this as will any additional large Phalcon sized AWACS the IAF gets beyond the 5 it will be operating in the near future. I would assume it would be the smaller ones that would be changing sector given operational needs within IND or PAK airspace....but the phalcons themselves are more strategic I would imagine and must not venture into Pakistan airspace I think.

Some protection will be afforded by the northern most sentry to JnK (esp chicken neck area), but JnK does not have the level of strategic assets and population to defend as the other areas....so with 5 strategic AWACS, I do not see one being dedicated there purely. But it could potentially have a smaller one or two there depending on what type of operations the army want to conduct from there against the opponent. Maybe with time as sentry numbers are increased it will get a large strategic dedicated platform too....but right now I don't think so.



I believe so.



Yes this was tested, demonstrated and confirmed earlier.



Its potent capability that IAF should not underestimate. But the Phalcon AWACS has the nature of AESA going for it which is very difficult to jam given its multi-band, low amplitude spectrum....and the fact it can act as PESA at any time should the need arise. I believe the PAF doctrine would focus more on using its air assets to counter intruder AWACS (which would be more likely to be the embraer platforms) and rather target the strategic ones with AWACs killing missiles when the opportunity presents itself (with a lot of finger crossing involved).

How the situation evolves with the years to come as more technologies come online (Ga-N vs Ga-As adoption, particular module upgrades NATO does for the E-3 which I am following closely and also how HARM seekers improve) remains to be seen. It will be a cat and mouse game like anything else.



Excellent. These were the points I expected someone to finally bring up when I quoted 400 km as the range.

Firstly its a range to horizon at maximum service ceiling. This is the maximum feasible pick up range (and you have to remember that an aircraft endurance sweet zone is not at its service ceiling....but thats another discussion for another time since we are talking maximum potential capability here).

Its effective range for ground hugging cruise missile tracking will of course be some fraction of this 400km...which is unknown and will probably remain so (it is dependent on the algorithm quality esp SNR processing channels). But I would imagine the Israelis have developed some pretty potent ones that the DRDO and others would have optimised for Indian conditions/use.

I would also imagine all clutter/noise/weather effects will be tested extensively in peace time against real low flying bogies and refine the algorithms as needed. It will definitely not be a "first time" experience for the AWAC operators during a potential conflict.



Actually thats a wrong assertion. You should read up more on even legacy performance of AWAC systems against cruise missiles (even in ground hugging mode). With an AESA radar, operating in tandem with other AESA radars.....it would require a very stealthy missile to stand even a chance because of ISAR effects from its velocity. I will have to dig up some papers later for you to get what I mean here.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vergennes @Water Car Engineer

those awacs have an instrument range of 400 kmyou think your awacs can see a tiny jf-17 at 400km? no.
sticking 3 awacs in the air and saying we can see deep into pakistan whilst being in india is true to an extent.

 

[Mrc]

You need only look up the module upgrading of the E-3 sentry using such upgraded systems for PDNES and PDES scans (way back in the 80s and 90s):

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1989/1989 - 2614.PDF

There are more detailed papers on this upgrade but they are paid subscription only and subject to copyright etc so I wont post them here. You can do your own search to see whats available in google.

You can easily verify that such systems get continually upgraded as new threat sources become apparent:

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/ar...ild-power-amplifier-for-e-3-sentry-radar.html

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/e3awacs/

Suffice to say a next generation AWACS like phalcon (considered the best in the world for a reason) would have a capability far in excess of the legacy E-3 sentries to begin with.....with algorithm refinement and upgrades backed up by hard cold testing by both the Israelis and Indians...anyone without any bias can see it will be a tough ask to get past a defensive matrix composed of such look down radars.

The only reliable tracking mechanism is the one called blimps, which are radars mounted on balloons that are said to be able to track ground huggers....but with proliferation of stealth every serious country will be developing stealthier versions of these missiles ....rcs as low as 0.00001 has been reported ( not by pakistan though, but far more easier to achieve as no requirement for external weapons stations) ...

Rest assured these ground huggers will remain a potent weapon in next 100 years and will be the cutting edge of next war between competent enemies...and will be the firat weapon to breach enemy airspace any 21st century war to come

 

[Nilgiri]

those awacs have an instrument range of 400 kmyou think your awacs can see a tiny jf-17 at 400km? no.
sticking 3 awacs in the air and saying we can see deep into pakistan whilst being in india is true to an extent.

A JF-17 would be picked up pretty near to 400 km. It is not a particularly stealthy target. If its low flying it may reduce to around a 300 km pick up range or so. Even the legacy E-3 sentry can do this quite comfortably.

We are specifically talking about low-RCS low flying bogies here.

The only reliable tracking mechanism is the one called blimps, which are radars mounted on balloons that are said to be able to track ground huggers....but with proliferation of stealth every serious country will be developing stealthier versions of these missiles ....rcs as low as 0.00001 has been reported ( not by pakistan though, but far more easier to achieve as no requirement for external weapons stations) ...

Rest assured these ground huggers will remain a potent weapon in next 100 years and will be the cutting edge of next war between competent enemies...and will be the firat weapon to breach enemy airspace any 21st century war to come

It's cat and mouse for the most part. Israeli ISAR algorithms have been quite notable...I talked with a NG engineer about it a few years back...and it surprised me to know the levels of bandwidth they had commited in their architecture. I cannot give any more details about it sorry....nor will I reveal what technologies are available for filtering and the nature of the low bypass filter chains.

Anyone can do a detailed search in their free time on what ISAR modules are and what their use is in detection algorithms for an AESA radar (esp one with overlap from multiple tandem systems).

 

[Mrc]

A JF-17 would be picked up pretty near to 400 km. It is not a particularly stealthy target. If its low flying it may reduce to around a 300 km pick up range or so. Even the legacy E-3 sentry can do this quite comfortably.

We are specifically talking about low-RCS low flying bogies here.



It's cat and mouse for the most part. Israeli ISAR algorithms have been quite notable...I talked with a NG engineer about it a few years back...and it surprised me to know the levels of bandwidth they had commited in their architecture. I cannot give any more details about it sorry.

By the way the links u posted above talk of DETECTION not TRACKING....

A voyeur trying to see neighbours wife may be able to detect a low flying cruise missile with naked eye...
Do you think that represent a reliable defence ???