Pakistan Navy's answer SM-2 for Brahmos.

[surya kiran]

Do point out where I overstated something, coz my knowledge stretches as far as the internet.

Am not saying your are overstating or anything. But lots of these are discussed regularly. Do see the India Defence part of the forum.

 

[surya kiran]

I strongly suspect the 'high diving' in the case of Brahmos referes to the air launch version (see flight path illustrations below). In that sense it is not new: from 1962 to 2007 the Russian deployed a supersonic highdiving missile AS-4 Kelt/Kh22.

The vertical dive was a necessity for the mountainous terrain according to the Army.

"Pillai said the test firing for the steep dive variant was done for the Army and after its success, the path is clear for the induction of the fourth regiment of the missile for mountain warfare."

BrahMos develops anti-aircraft variant of missile

 

[Penguin]

I would like to disagree coz the air-launched BrahMos is still under-development and according to recent news it will be inducted not before 2013. The Supersonic dive was reported on 2010 on the BrahMos Block-2, which is a land attack version.

BRAHMOS Block-II test-fired with advanced supersonic dive manoeuvrability :: BrahMos.com

Well, high diving is a pattern typically employed with air-launched anti-ship weapons, including Harpoon. The idea of multi-service weapons is savings through interservice commonality. It would stand to reason that the basic missile can perform all flight patterns required, including a dive. That does not mean however that a shiplaunched version - and more specifically an antishipping missile variant - would typically be employing the high diving pattern.

Meanwhile AFAICT it simply isn't true that that test was the first time a supersonic dive was realized by a cruise missile.

Also, Brahmos is based on the Russian 3M55 Oniks of which Yakhont is the export version. Development of 3M55 by NPO Mash started in 1983. Development was not authorised until 1985 and was largely a private venture. By the third quarter of 1995 up to 20 ballistic trials had been conducted. During the year the first guided weapon trials began using the Nanuchka IV-class trials ship Nakat. In 1999 an air-launched version was reported to be in development, and this was displayed in August 1999. The export version of this missile has the name Yakhont-M, and the complete air-launched weapon system may be known as Alfa. In October 1999 the manufacturers stated that series production of Yakhont, would begin in 2001. By 2001 development thus allowed the launch of the missile from land, sea, air and submarine. The original 3M55 missile has been deployed in Russia as a shore-based (Bastion) and sea-going system. While there were long-term plans to introduce an airborne version for Russia, the current development effort is being driven by a joint programme with India for the BrahMos. I would not be surprised if the trials Russia conducted for their (pre-Brahmos) applications included a high diving trajectory.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/...26-3M55-Oniks-Yakhont-Russian-Federation.html
http://articles.janes.com/articles/...BrahMos-PJ-10-3M55-Yakhont-International.html
http://articles.janes.com/articles/...tion-SS-N26-SSC-53M55-Russian-Federation.html
http://www.missilethreat.com/cruise/id.103/cruise_detail.asp
http://www.missilethreat.com/cruise/id.18/cruise_detail.asp
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2012/09...g-company-for-hypersonic-weapons-development/

The missile also has a high level of accuracy, which has been established by recent test flights as close to 1 m CEP. (nb note how that includes a distance measure)

 

[bloo]

Well, high diving is a pattern typically employed with air-launched anti-ship weapons, including Harpoon. The idea of multi-service weapons is savings through interservice commonality. It would stand to reason that the basic missile can perform all flight patterns required, including a dive. That does not mean however that a shiplaunched version would typically be employing the high diving pattern.

Meanwhile AFAICT it simply isn't true that that test was the first time a supersonic dive was realized by a cruise missile.

The Block-2 BrahMos was made for the army to employ in the northern mountainous regions, where the BrahMos could dive past hills.
BrahMos ASHM can still perform high-level manoeuvers before striking a target.


I believe every cruise missile brings with itself different sets of capabilities, considering BrahMos we really shouldn't categorize it as a common ASHM.


BrahMos's anti-aircraft carrier variant was able to perform a steep dive.
This is in contradiction to the fact that high-diving manoeuver is a typical pattern of the aircraft-to-ship missiles.

DRDO conducted a test of a new variant of the Brahmos capable of attacking an aircraft carrier in a steep dive at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur off Odisha on Friday March 30, 2012.

Brahmos Missile Tests - IDP Sentinel

And actually a vertical diving variant is made for the navy.

"We have achieved the cappability to attack aircraft carriers using the supersonic vertical diving variant of the missile and after demonstrating the capability recently with high precision, we will now offer this to the Indian Navy " BrahMos chief A Sivathanu Pillai said here Saturday

BrahMos develops anti-aircraft carrier variant of the missile :: BrahMos.com

 

[Penguin]

The vertical dive was a necessity for the mountainous terrain according to the Army.

"Pillai said the test firing for the steep dive variant was done for the Army and after its success, the path is clear for the induction of the fourth regiment of the missile for mountain warfare."

BrahMos develops anti-aircraft variant of missile

So you suggest ARMY but .... your article is says

Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos has developed an anti-aircraft carrier variant of the 290-km supersonic cruise missile.

"We have achieved the capability to attack aircraft carriers using the supersonic vertical diving variant of the missile and after demonstrating the capability recently with high precision, we will now offer this to the Indian Navy," BrahMos chief A Sivathanu Pillai said here today.

 

[Penguin]

The Block-2 BrahMos was made for the army to employ in the northern mountainous regions, where the BrahMos could dive past hills.

Quite possible: no issue for me

Brahmos ASHM can still perform high-level manoeuvers before striking a target.

No issue. Although it is quite common for antiship missiles to fly a preprogrammed flightpath, including twists and turns, I'm a bit puzzled by the use of the term 'manoeuvers' as this suggest something other than a preprogrammed (waypoint using) path and rather something reactive.

I believe every cruise missile brings with itself different sets of capabilities, considering BrahMos we really shouldn't categorize it as a common ASHM.

We commonly categorize weapons by their function and capability. Everything else is detail (this discussion is not about one missile or another being 'common' > what does that mean in this context: used by many navies, 'ordinary?)

BrahMos's anti-aircraft carrier variant was able to perform a steep dive.
This is in contradiction to the fact that high-diving manoeuver is a typical pattern of the aircraft-to-ship missiles.

How so? To keep a launching aircraft safe it should preferbly stay outside of SAM range. This can be done either by employing a long range missile (horizontal plane) or by flying at high altitude (vertical plane). Recall SM2 block II/III roughly 120km range to 25km altitude, for example. When launching closer in but from altitude, high diving is the logical missile flight path. If you surface launch and your missile is not a sea skimmer, it first has to climb on its own to altitude and then dive (i.e. pop up manoeuvre). This applies for a sub-, ship- or landlaunched antiship missile. It would seem logical if it also applies to a landlaunched land-attack missile

And actually a vertical diving variant will be offered to the navy ...

 

[Armstrong]

@Penguin : First off thank you for all those informative posts ! Secondly you mentioned the Exocet & how it has the ability to sea skim at such a level where, if I understood you correctly, its harder to detect it till its fairly close to the ship; how would you rate the C-802 in comparison to that seeing that it too, unless my information is incorrect, flies between 3-5m from sea-level in attack phase !

Thirdly (another noob question ! ) : Can there be a cruise-missile type of a torpedo ? Which is to say a Smart Torpedo that positions itself accordingly, avoiding detection, slowing down, speeding up, diving down, coming up till its within reasonable range of the ship & then engage it with a surge of speed till it hits it !

 

[surya kiran]

So you suggest ARMY but .... your article is says

Well what i said has also been taken from the article. The article states 2 tests were conducted. One test was for the army as it states the same. The Army version is for the NorthEast.

"Pillai said the test firing for the steep dive variant was done for the Army and after its success, the path is clear for the induction of the fourth regiment of the missile for mountain warfare.

The army has plans of deploying this missile regiment in the Northeast along the borders with China and the proposal was accorded sanction in a Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) meeting last year."

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin : First off thank you for all those informative posts ! Secondly you mentioned the Exocet & how it has the ability to sea skim at such a level where, if I understood you correctly, its harder to detect it till its fairly close to the ship; how would you rate the C-802 in comparison to that seeing that it too, unless my information is incorrect, flies between 3-5m from sea-level in attack phase !

I would think that Exocet MM-40 Block III and C-802 are in many ways quite comparable, even if the latter is a somewhat bigger missile and the former perhaps a bit more advanced in electronics. The

Thirdly (another noob question ! ) : Can there be a cruise-missile type of a torpedo ? Which is to say a Smart Torpedo that positions itself accordingly, avoiding detection, slowing down, speeding up, diving down, coming up till its within reasonable range of the ship & then engage it with a surge of speed till it hits it !

I think with torpedoes you generally trade off speed and range.
UK Mk24 Tigerfish Maximum range 39 km (22 nm) at low speed, 13 km (7 nm) at high speed
UK Spearfish Maximum range 54 km (30 nm) at low speed, 23 km (12.5 nm) at high speed
British Torpedoes after World War II
US Mk 48 ADCAP Maximum range 38 km at 55 kn (102 km/h) or 50 km at 40 kn (74 km/h)
USA Torpedoes since World War II
Likewise german andrussian torps:
German Torpedoes Post World War II
Russia / USSR Post-World War II Torpedoes

Plus many (not all: e.g. accoustic or wake homing) todays torpedoes are wireguided at least some of the way, which limits your ability to 'bob and weave'. Modern torpedoes use an umbilical wire, which nowadays allows the computer processing power of the submarine or ship to be used
Torpedo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You could consider supercavitating torpedoes List of supercavitating torpedoes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Such as the Russian VA-111 Shkval VA-111 Shkval - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Speed
Launch speed: 50 kn (93 km/h)
Maximum speed: 200 kn (370 km/h) or greater
Range:
Around 11 km to 15 km (new version).
Older versions could only fire 7 km

Well what i said has also been taken from the article. The article states 2 tests were conducted. One test was for the army as it states the same. The Army version is for the NorthEast.

"Pillai said the test firing for the steep dive variant was done for the Army and after its success, the path is clear for the induction of the fourth regiment of the missile for mountain warfare.

The army has plans of deploying this missile regiment in the Northeast along the borders with China and the proposal was accorded sanction in a Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) meeting last year."

Overland 'pop up' manoeuvre. So? The rationale for high diving and its use stands.

 

[surya kiran]

Overland 'pop up' manoeuvre. So? The rationale for high diving and its use stands.

Please do notice my response was to your suggestion that the steep dive is for the air launched version. Its for the land launched version which is deployed.

 

[Penguin]

Please do notice my response was to your suggestion that the steep dive is for the air launched version. Its for the land launched version which is deployed.

I think it is most commonly used with airlaunched weapons, yes. All Harpoon variants (whether AGM, RGM or UGM) likely can perform/withstand high diving. Still, this is most likely to actually occur with the AGM version.

Also, for a surface launched missile (whether from ship, submarine or ground vehicle or silo) to be able to high dive it first needs to climb to a starting altitude. That is different with an airlaunched version. It reduces range, for starters.

 

[bloo]

No issue. Although it is quite common for antiship missiles to fly a preprogrammed flightpath, including twists and turns, I'm a bit puzzled by the use of the term 'manoeuvers' as this suggest something other than a preprogrammed (waypoint using) path and rather something reactive.

We have to note that BrahMos takes around 5 minutes to strike its target, therefore a realtime guidance system like GPS and an active radar et cetera is employed in it.
Air Weapons: BrahMos
It was noted that

""The Block II BrahMos missile was successfully launched at 1030 hours this morning," said an official of Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO).

The vertically launched missile took two-and-a half-minutes to strike its target in the Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan."

Brahmos Missile Tests - IDP Sentinel

We exactly don't know the parameters at which it was fired, but the gist of it all is that a real time guidance system is present in the BrahMos.
This is confirmed by the fact that BrahMos Block-2 had to identify a building among a cluster of buildings in an urban environment which it did.
This must mean a real time guidance software is used, coz I doubt DSMAC or TERCOM will be able to attack with this acuity, BrahMos is a fire and forget missile after all.
Which means yes BrahMos can act as per the situation and can react independently as per the guidance data.
BRAHMOS Mark II is ready for induction :: BrahMos.com

The new Brahmos variant poses a serious threat to any aircraft carrier being targeted, not just because it can dive down vertically with very high kinetic energy, but also because it can be fired in a salvo and has the ability to pick the carrier in a carrier group and perform a co-ordinated attack on it!

The Pravda had earlier reported that "the missiles are so clever that they not only detect a target but develop a plan of attack based on the enemy's air defense. They know exactly which target is the primary one, which of them is an attacker and which is a defender. When the main target is destroyed, they re-prioritize and continue with the attack. Now even more advanced missile is on the way."

Deadly Brahmos Variant with Co-ordinated Aircraft Carrier Attack Capability Developed

We commonly categorize weapons by their function and capability. Everything else is detail (this discussion is not about one missile or another being 'common' > what does that mean in this context: used by many navies, 'ordinary?)

What I meant to say was that an Exocet or a Tomahawk will not be able to maneuver like the BrahMos and neither will their trajectories be the same as BrahMos'.
So comparing BrahMos in a traditional sense won't exactly yield a rational explanation.

How so? To keep a launching aircraft safe it should preferbly stay outside of SAM range. This can be done either by employing a long range missile (horizontal plane) or by flying at high altitude (vertical plane). Recall SM2 block II/III roughly 120km range to 25km altitude, for example. When launching closer in but from altitude, high diving is the logical missile flight path. If you surface launch and your missile is not a sea skimmer, it first has to climb on its own to altitude and then dive (i.e. pop up manoeuvre). This applies for a sub-, ship- or landlaunched antiship missile. It would seem logical if it also applies to a landlaunched land-attack missile

Well that is what your link said.

The High-Diver maneuver is the typical pattern of the missile from an aircraft to a ship.

http://www.ijcas.org/admin/paper/files/IJCAS_v5_n4_pp.456-462.pdf


And since we have gone there, BrahMos unlike Tomahawk or any other subsonic cruise missile can accelerate faster, this is proved by the fact that it reaches its target in less than 5 minutes, which is to say that it remains supersonic for the majority of the flight.
Therefore BrahMos has a faster rate of climb, cruise phase and decent.

Actually its quite possible that a cruise missile sea skims during the cruise phase in a pop-up maneuver and then at the necessary distance rises up to acquire momentum and dive down to perform the kill.

The initial position of the missile is at
about 9 km distance apart from the origin. During
ship-to-ship engagement, the trajectory of the antiship missile consists of the cruising phase and the
final phase. It is assumed in simulation that the popup maneuver happens in the final phase with 4 km
distance after the sea-skimming flight is maintained in
the cruising phase with 5 km distance.

http://www.ijcas.org/admin/paper/files/IJCAS_v5_n4_pp.456-462.pdf

Figure 2 shows a graph of a pop-up maneuver where the ASCM sea-skims a height of less than 20m in the cruise phase and after 4km rises up to acquire momentum and dives down to perform the kill.

And actually a vertical diving variant will be offered to the navy ...

Actually the latest test(33rd) of the BrahMos from the stealth frigate INS Teg, featured a supersonic steep diving variant, which probably means the navy has inducted it.

So you suggest ARMY but .... your article is says

True.
Though as we know it BrahMos aerospace is striving for a universal cruise missile system.
So the steep diving variant will be available for both Indian Navy and the Army.
The article I posted also said this,

"We have achieved the capability to attack aircraft carriers using the supersonic vertical diving variant of the missile and after demonstrating the capability recently with high precision, we will now offer this to the Indian Navy," BrahMos chief A Sivathanu Pillai said here today.

He was asked to comment on the recent two successful test firings of the missile.

Pillai said the test firing for the steep dive variant was done for the army and after its success the path is clear for the induction of the
fourth regiment of the missile for mountain warfare.

BrahMos develops anti-aircraft carrier variant of the missile :: BrahMos.com

 

[bloo]

So you suggest ARMY but .... your article is says

BrahMos' main goal is to achieve a universal cruise missile system status.
Therefore yes the steep diving variant exists both in the LACM and ASCM variants of BrahMos.

The link I gave confirms both my claims.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

I know i will be trolled for this,but the fact is that our 'freindly' neighbours are afraid of brahmos,especially the navies.Thats why you see these 'counter/answer to brahmos' threads popping up regularly.

 

[Shinigami]

I found this interesting

The missile performed high-level manoeuvres at two given points in a scenario of evading detection by enemies' radars and successfully hit the target ship at a distance of 290 Kms. The decommissioned target ship was completely devastated by the huge kinetic energy of impact. By the time naval helicopter reached the target point, the ship was completely on fire.

BRAHMOS hits bull's eye on the target from INS Teg :: BrahMos.com

dint know it could do that