Pakistan Military options in Kashmir today - a perspective

[Wolf]

What’s 313?

Ghazwa e badr.

313 Muslims vs 1000 infidels. 1st war of Islam. Victory for Muslims

 

[PakFactor]

Ghazwa e badr.

313 Muslims vs 1000 infidels. 1st war of Islam. Victory for Muslims

Oh that, yeah. I was thinking it was some more recent event.

 

[R Wing]

It does look like you need a maths lesson. If you don't want one, that's OK. There is more to waging war then fighting men. Economy is a big component.

To increase the budget, you have to increase taxes. There is already a thread running elsewhere where the IMF has asked to increase taxes and all the Pakistani members are angry about that. So I wonder how much you can increase taxes for the 400000 new recruits.

Exactly.

We have a lot of childish people here who believe no's of foot soldiers decide modern wars.

 

[Mentee]

Oh that, yeah. I was thinking it was some more recent event.

I hate to say it but the only way pakiis gonna wreck havoc over Delhi if enemy thrusts tanks in Lahore and Karachi and disturb their 9-5 office time /life style

 

[R Wing]

I hate to say it but the only way pakiis gonna wreck havoc over Delhi if enemy thrusts tanks in Lahore and Karachi and disturb their 9-5 office time /life style

or perhaps take away some of the land allotted to generals

 

[Mentee]

or perhaps take away some of the land allotted to generals

For that to happen the tanks shall have to do a blitzkrieg in these two cities anyways

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian can u tell about Pakistan 's offensive through Jammu like u started the thread by telling about offensive through Valley

In 1971 war, Maj Gen Janjua troops captured area of Chhamb near Tawi River, North west of Jammu. He was commanding 23rd Infantry Division, but he was allotted more troops like 2 x Infantry brigades, 1 x armored Brigade and 2 x artillery Brigades. The operation was a success.

Did you see the video of Brig (R) Hamid i posted ?
He categorically mentions more troops are required for an operation to succeed in Indian occupied kashmir. On the defense side, Pakistan can fend off multiple Indian attacks. So even if a scenario was created how to proceed towards Jammu, the existing formation in the area will require troops from other formations for the operation to succeed.

The forces deployed against Jammu are 30 Corps having 2 Infantry Divisions, 1 Armored Brigade, 1 infantry Brigade and few other battlions of the Corps along with Ranger. If this force moves towards Jammu, then the area north of Lahore and Shakargarh/Zafarwal sector will split open and Indian Army will deploy forces from Pathankot towards Sialkot. This will bring 1st Corps (6th Armored Division, 17th and 37th Infantry Divisions) into action.

The area leading up to Pathankot from Shakargarh is not tank friendly as forces get closer to Pathankot. So if 6th Armored is deployed to cut off Jammu from Pathankot and 23rd Infantry Division moves towards Jourian to cut off Jammu from West, then there is a chance. But do you see that now PA's 30th Corps and 1st Corps are fully deployed in the region and cannot leave the region. 23rd Infantry Div has its own AOR west/North West of Jammu. Capturing just Jammu has already tied down 1 x Armored Division, 5 x Infantry Divisions, 2 x Armored Brigades and 1 x Infantry Brigade of PA.

If India starts to reinforce Jammu from Leh or anywhere else, which India will, then these PA forces will remain in the area by going on defensive throughout the war. If any other sector is threatened like Lahore or Okara, 1-2 of these Infantry Divisions will need to be shifted south where as 6th Armored Division would lose initiative without its infantry Divisions fall back inside Pakistan to re-group and get deployed somewhere else.

I think the retired Brigadier is right in his assessment.

 

[Old School]

Whoever controls Delhi , controls the IOK. Plain and simple. This is primarily a political question than a military one. Strategically, Kashmir is not some Island in the Indian Ocean which can be won in a war. Therefore, a correct question is required here. Military strategy is much more than offensives and logistics .

 

[Goku]

Whoever controls Delhi , controls the IOK. Plain and simple. This is primarily a political question than a military one. Strategically, Kashmir is not some Island in the Indian Ocean which can be won in a war. Therefore, a correct question is required here. Military strategy is much more than offensives and logistics .

So you want to capture Delhi to win J&K&L?

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian can u tell about Pakistan 's offensive through Jammu like u started the thread by telling about offensive through Valley

I had mentioned airborne/air assault forces in the first post.

Such forces are required for offensives conducted anywhere against India. Firstly, they are almost non existent other than SSG and few LCBs. Secondly, they require air lift where as transport helis and C-130 are scarce. Thirdly. PAF will need to give them cover as they are being dropped inside India.

There are 4 Armored/Mech Divs but the attack through ground whether armor or foot infantry will take time in entering, fighting and capturing area. Air Borne forces are required for these 4 formations also, not just for Ops in Kashmir mountains. PA needs Airborne/Air assault forces to hold and engage Indian forces inside their own borders so Pakistan Strike Corps can push through inside India and reinforce airborne forces. When pakistan captures some area and brings India on negotiation table, then maybe Kashmir issue might find some solution, but India will never give up kashmir easily ever.

The reserve force that PA has are retired officers/soldiers, they may or may not see combat. Then FC and Rangers are not well trained to fight Indian armored forces, but they could hold on their own against Indian Airborne forces. Fighting on same lines of 65 and 71 will bring same results.

For PA to succeed in every sector PAF will be required, not a mere presence but a strong presence and not just air superiority but constant ground attacks to force Indian forces to retreat and long range interdiction to stop Indian reinforcements and supplies from reaching the affected sectors. This means more than 450 combat aircraft.

 

[Old School]

So you want to capture Delhi to win J&K&L?

You have asked the correct question. Thank you. I would prefer Delhi over Kashmir in any given time if I had the capabilities. A cow always brings cowdung along. Therefore, the primary objective should be the cow. Delhi will be captured at some stage but that requires a totally different Pakistan than the one we see today. People who talks about Kashmir as an isolated island alone, are not to be taken seriously. Kashmir is only a symptom of a far greater problem. Jinnah's Pakistan was meant to be a strategic retreat only. It was never meant to be a permanent solution.

 

[Goku]

You have asked the correct question. Thank you. I would prefer Delhi over Kashmir in any given time if I had the capabilities. A cow always brings cowdung along. Therefore, the primary objective should be the cow. Delhi will be captured at some stage but that requires a totally different Pakistan than the one we see today. People who talks about Kashmir as an isolated island alone, are not to be taken seriously. Kashmir is only a symptom of a far greater problem. Jinnah's Pakistan was meant to be a strategic retreat only. It was never meant to be a permanent solution.

Lol good luck.....

 

[Sine Nomine]

I had mentioned airborne/air assault forces in the first post.

Such forces are required for offensives conducted anywhere against India. Firstly, they are almost non existent other than SSG and few LCBs. Secondly, they require air lift where as transport helis and C-130 are scarce. Thirdly. PAF will need to give them cover as they are being dropped inside India.

There are 4 Armored/Mech Divs but the attack through ground whether armor or foot infantry will take time in entering, fighting and capturing area. Air Borne forces are required for these 4 formations also, not just for Ops in Kashmir mountains. PA needs Airborne/Air assault forces to hold and engage Indian forces inside their own borders so Pakistan Strike Corps can push through inside India and reinforce airborne forces. When pakistan captures some area and brings India on negotiation table, then maybe Kashmir issue might find some solution, but India will never give up kashmir easily ever.

The reserve force that PA has are retired officers/soldiers, they may or may not see combat. Then FC and Rangers are not well trained to fight Indian armored forces, but they could hold on their own against Indian Airborne forces. Fighting on same lines of 65 and 71 will bring same results.

For PA to succeed in every sector PAF will be required, not a mere presence but a strong presence and not just air superiority but constant ground attacks to force Indian forces to retreat and long range interdiction to stop Indian reinforcements and supplies from reaching the affected sectors. This means more than 450 combat aircraft.

We lack deep & future-oriented strategic thinking,in it's current shape and form Govt of Pakistan along with it principle armed organisation PA won't be able to take Kashmir even in 1000 years.Our thinking and planning pattern needs to be changed,we need a major shift from everything we are doing that.
Our Battle plan against Bharat is still same as that in 1965,no change at grass root level.
We need to make full state from top to bottom ready for such engagement and it requires some deep planning and thinking.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

The reserve force that PA has are retired officers/soldiers, they may or may not see combat. Then FC and Rangers are not well trained to fight Indian armored forces, but they could hold on their own against Indian Airborne forces. Fighting on same lines of 65 and 71 will bring same results.

So the 5 lakh+ reserve force is actually made of Retired men. Are they physically capable then?
Are Indian paramilitary forces BSF and CRPF trained to fight Pakistani armoured division?

For PA to succeed in every sector PAF will be required, not a mere presence but a strong presence and not just air superiority but constant ground attacks to force Indian forces to retreat and long range interdiction to stop Indian reinforcements and supplies from reaching the affected sectors. This means more than 450 combat aircraft.

Hmmm looks like the job of F16s, JF17s and Mirages. F16s and JF17s can take on A2A role while the rest of the Thunders and Mirages need to bomb the Indian reinforcements
@airomerix

 

[Zulfiqar]

I had mentioned airborne/air assault forces in the first post.

Such forces are required for offensives conducted anywhere against India. Firstly, they are almost non existent other than SSG and few LCBs. Secondly, they require air lift where as transport helis and C-130 are scarce. Thirdly. PAF will need to give them cover as they are being dropped inside India.

There are 4 Armored/Mech Divs but the attack through ground whether armor or foot infantry will take time in entering, fighting and capturing area. Air Borne forces are required for these 4 formations also, not just for Ops in Kashmir mountains. PA needs Airborne/Air assault forces to hold and engage Indian forces inside their own borders so Pakistan Strike Corps can push through inside India and reinforce airborne forces. When pakistan captures some area and brings India on negotiation table, then maybe Kashmir issue might find some solution, but India will never give up kashmir easily ever.

The reserve force that PA has are retired officers/soldiers, they may or may not see combat. Then FC and Rangers are not well trained to fight Indian armored forces, but they could hold on their own against Indian Airborne forces. Fighting on same lines of 65 and 71 will bring same results.

For PA to succeed in every sector PAF will be required, not a mere presence but a strong presence and not just air superiority but constant ground attacks to force Indian forces to retreat and long range interdiction to stop Indian reinforcements and supplies from reaching the affected sectors. This means more than 450 combat aircraft.

If we are to even field 1x brigade in Airborne role then we would be needing 20+ Z-20 class choppers and 10+ MI-17 type transport choppers (excl recon, gunships and med evac choppers) to support their assault in 4 sorties.

That is a lot of capex in equipment.