Pakistan, India to hold talks in Dhaka

[JSK]

Are Pakistanis interested in "kashmiris as a people" or "kashmiri land-real estate" ? choose one.

If they choose the first option, they simply should ask kashmiris to migrate to pakistan by all possible options.
The Bus / Train services were started to enable kashmiris to migrate to pakistan permanently. But most kashmiris dont want to join pakistan, they are firmly set on independence, which both countries wont agree.

pakistanis are struggling for kashmiri real estate not human rights. look what they did in bangladesh !

BRAVO - i'll bet there'll be either no reply to your post or there's be tons of flame baiting that will start.

I agree with what you've said - if pakistanis are so concerned with kashmiri citizens - all they need to do is what is mentioned by you...

but, apprently - that doesnt seem to be the case

 

[Jay_]

pakistanis are struggling for kashmiri real estate not human rights. look what they did in bangladesh !

Glad that someone finally put it out loud, assuming that you are a Kashmiri, its quite a relief.
May be the headwaters of Indus ring a bell?

 

[Sid]

Are Pakistanis interested in "kashmiris as a people" or "kashmiri land-real estate" ? choose one.

If they choose the first option, they simply should ask kashmiris to migrate to pakistan by all possible options.
The Bus / Train services were started to enable kashmiris to migrate to pakistan permanently. But most kashmiris dont want to join pakistan, they are firmly set on independence, which both countries wont agree.

pakistanis are struggling for kashmiri real estate not human rights. look what they did in bangladesh !

Well thanks for the narrow-minded approach. I'm sure there would be a few who would agree with you but unfortunately for you, the only part that the majority will agree with you on is that Kashmiris want independance as their first choice (second being to acceed to Pakistan). Now sadly, neither India, nor Pakistan would agree to that.

Taking the logic behind the arguement Pakistan asking Kashmiris to come to its side of the LoC or the I.B or both; I guess India being the self-claimed 'largest democracy', 'big brother of the South Asian region', etc should take the lead perhaps? Dont you think? I wonder what is keeping the Indian establishment from extending this invitation to the people of Azad Kashmir (as India claims Azad Kashmir as its 'atoot angg').

My friend, if geopolitics and strategic planning were to be done on such simplistic terms, I guess online forum enthusiasts like you and I wouldn't be much farther than a few steps from becoming leaders of our respected countries.

Kashmir dispute has multiple dimensions to it and its not just about the people living there or the land they're living on.

Kashmir 'real estate' being linked to what happened in Bangladesh (East Pakistan)? Hmm, I'm sure you would like to bring my attention to how you can draw these parallels.

 

[sigatoka]

Are Pakistanis interested in "kashmiris as a people" or "kashmiri land-real estate" ? choose one.

If they choose the first option, they simply should ask kashmiris to migrate to pakistan by all possible options.
The Bus / Train services were started to enable kashmiris to migrate to pakistan permanently. But most kashmiris dont want to join pakistan, they are firmly set on independence, which both countries wont agree.

pakistanis are struggling for kashmiri real estate not human rights. look what they did in bangladesh !

lol, your analysis only assumes that choices are like a light switch, either on or off when life presents choices across a continuum. Pak. is not interested in only the real estate, nor only in the people. It is a combination.

Secondly you are being quite cynical, you deny that the people can feel empathy. Why did you feel upset with what happened in Mumbai? Was it because the trains ran late that day; or was it because your taxes might go up to repair the damage?

 

[kashmirik]

dear Sid ,

Yes, I agree with u that kashmir issue/dispute is multidimensional.
people & land are just two aspects
the other aspects are
1. water (and its possible fallout on indus water treaty)
2. strategic position(pak will keep india separated from afghanistan(shared border),
3. chinese connection road to arabian sea via karachi/gwadar ports etc
4. ..........and may be some more !

But thanks for accepting that pakistan is interested in kashmiri land.
that was an open secret , so nothing great about it.

I brought the issue of bangladesh precisely because of pakistan's own human rights record. (You know it very well).

===================================================
dear sigatoka,

u wrote "Secondly you are being quite cynical, you deny that the people can feel empathy."

I accept that it is natural that for u to feel empathy for we kashmiris. But this empathy of yours is a cold calculated one. I mean, cost-benefit analysis. kashmiris constitutes only 4% of pakistan's total population , and it is hardly likely to affect pakistan's internal politics. kashmiris cannot dictate terms to the dominant punjabis.

we also have been observing the inter provincial conflicts in pakistan on many issues especially water sharing , land reforms etc.

You did not care a damn for the majority pakistanis (pakistan's 55% population was in the east wing in 1971) and your attitude towards the stateless biharis in dacca's slums is worthy of contempt ! absolutely amazing since you wish to be the leader of ummah ! is this your idea of great leadership ?

My point is , pakistanis can no longer cap(close) kashmiri minds for ever. globalisation of telecommunications has made people very aware. you cannot fool kashmiris for ever. we dont want your empty empathy .
Just leave us alone , we will deal with indians on our terms.

 

[sigatoka]

But thanks for accepting that pakistan is interested in kashmiri land.
that was an open secret , so nothing great about it.

I brought the issue of bangladesh precisely because of pakistan's own human rights record. (You know it very well).

===================================================
dear sigatoka,

u wrote "Secondly you are being quite cynical, you deny that the people can feel empathy."

I accept that it is natural that for u to feel empathy for we kashmiris. But this empathy of yours is a cold calculated one. I mean, cost-benefit analysis. kashmiris constitutes only 4% of pakistan's total population , and it is hardly likely to affect pakistan's internal politics.

Just leave us alone , we will deal with indians on our terms.

1. When i said Pak. is interested in Kashmiri land, what i meant was Pak. is no more interested in it than India is. My emphasis was that it forms only a small part of the equation, your problem is that you start off by accepting it as multi-dimensional but then try to simplify it to just this single point.

2. What happened in 1971 was ill handling of the situation by those in rule.

3. Empathy is not calculated, the cost that Pak. has endured for liberating Kashmir far exceeds the pathetic regions economic value. If Pak. was truely cold and calculating, Kashmir would have been abandoned long ago.

4. If Pak. were to totally withdraw support for Kashmiri independance, Kashmiri's would be again licking the boots of Indian troops. You will indeed deal with the indians.............on their terms without Pak. support.

 

[RAPTOR]

Kashmir is an Integral part of Pakistan and hindoostan is occupying it illegally. If hindoostan claims to be a "dimocracy" then it shouldnt have a problem letting the Kashmiri people have a voice in deciding their own destiny.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

By stating that Kashmir is an integral part of Paksitan on a forum is not going to make the issue any more authentic.

Are you suggesting that because Pakistan is not giving a voice to the Kashmiris in deciding their future, it is not a democracy?

I believe Pakistan claims it is a democracy, even if headed by a General, who took power through, what is termed, as non democratic means. However, this fact is of no concern in the issue of Kashmir except that it is required highlighting since the issue of democracy was raised.

 

[kashmirik]

sigatoka

u wrote" Empathy is not calculated, the cost that Pak. has endured for liberating Kashmir far exceeds the pathetic regions economic value. If Pak. was truely cold and calculating, Kashmir would have been abandoned long ago"

Ask any Pakistani general as to the ECONOMIC VALUE OF KASHMIR for pakistan.

kashmir has a hydroelectricity potential of over 40000 MW
a rich tourism potential for tourists from all over the world
a good potential for horticulture
but the crux of the matter is WATER MANAGEMENT !

Practically pakistan's 90% water comes from kashmir
so its indirect value is much higher.

Raptor.
========================================
u wrote"
If hindoostan claims to be a "dimocracy" then it shouldnt have a problem letting the Kashmiri people have a voice in deciding their own destiny."

I think kashmiris have only following options
1. pro-pakistani kashmiris can migrate to pakistan using the
present bus-train services(only after negotiating with
indian authorities)
2. pro-independence kashmiris can demand autonomy
with some demilitarization
3. pro-indian kashmiris will prefer to carve out a separate
state of jammu/union territory out of kashmir but remain in
india

and most important , pakistan should forget kashmir for ever!

It allready has 1/3rd Kashmir !

1/3 rd kashmir is pakistan's share of kashmir (although pakistan was carved out of india for muslims of whole india , now only 1/3rd muslims in south asia reside in pakistan.

I think pakistan has got a very FAIR share of kashmir)

 

[sigatoka]

Ask any Pakistani general as to the ECONOMIC VALUE OF KASHMIR for pakistan.

kashmir has a hydroelectricity potential of over 40000 MW
a rich tourism potential for tourists from all over the world
a good potential for horticulture
but the crux of the matter is WATER MANAGEMENT !

Practically pakistan's 90% water comes from kashmir
so its indirect value is much higher.

I think economists would be better placed to give the economic value of Kashmir rather than military people.

Russia has few times the hydro potential than U.S., the russian economy is not several times that of the U.S. (its vice versa)

Two potentials....

Water can be made by recycling peoples sewerage and by desalination of sea water. Water is quite a cheap commodity, sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Water can be made by recycling peoples sewerage and by desalination of sea water. Water is quite a cheap commodity, sorry to burst your bubble.

I think they are rather expensive propositions.

If it were cheap and viable, then all countries would have adopted the same.

I would not be too sure; a check would be more appropriate since it is an interesting point raised.

 

[Arrow]

By stating that Kashmir is an integral part of Paksitan on a forum is not going to make the issue any more authentic.

Are you suggesting that because Pakistan is not giving a voice to the Kashmiris in deciding their future, it is not a democracy?

I believe Pakistan claims it is a democracy, even if headed by a General, who took power through, what is termed, as non democratic means. However, this fact is of no concern in the issue of Kashmir except that it is required highlighting since the issue of democracy was raised.

But it sures makes the one who said it feel better (and thats all there is to it)!

 

[sigatoka]

I think they are rather expensive propositions.

If it were cheap and viable, then all countries would have adopted the same.

Yeah, your right. But my point on water being a cheap commodity stands. (desalination and recycling poo water is only viable if there are no other sources for drinking. They have desal. plants in kuwait, saudi and they want to build one in aust.)

 

[kashmirik]

please read my post carefully

I used the word "potential" not "actual"
how u manage the resource depends on the rulers of pakistan(pakistani generals) not pakistani economists !

It is the Pak army that makes the final decision on every matter

sigatoka,

Although Water is a cheap resource , its processing is not cheap ! have u visited any gulf country ?

 

[Arrow]

I think economists would be better placed to give the economic value of Kashmir rather than military people.

Russia has few times the hydro potential than U.S., the russian economy is not several times that of the U.S. (its vice versa)

Two potentials....

Water can be made by recycling peoples sewerage and by desalination of sea water. Water is quite a cheap commodity, sorry to burst your bubble.

If that was the case, why is your Govt making such a hue and cry over the dam issue?

Come on...