Pakistan, India agree on Kashmir troop reduction, says Mirwaiz

[Adux]

Every Terrorist will be Hunted and Killed, No troop reduction is needed.

 

[Adux]

At the present moment the kashmir freedom fighters have stopped anti terrorist ops.This is also not good news for the people under occupation,who have to live with the fear of indian terrorist attacks against themselfs and there familys.
The pakistani government has taken a lot of steps towards finding a peaceful settlement to the kashmir issue but so far the indian government has not moved showing its real intent of keeping the kashmir people under indian occupation.

Hilariou statement by you, As far as I can see, No reputed agency have called the Indian Army terrorist, Not even by your country. Shows your hate and incapacity to see from otherside of the fence.

 

[Adux]

No but we are sincere for lasting peace and if we work hard to satisfy all parties the terrorists will be tamed.

Janbaz,

Thank you, finally some sense of maturity and understanding in this forum. I apperciate your sense of optimism and desire. I really hope Peace prevails.

 

[Contrarian]

This is the Most childish statement i have seen from YOU.

I apologise, it was an insensitive statement on my part.

EDIT:
Regards,
Malay

 

[waz]

BTW, how coolly you say generally the "people under occupation", i know of many kashmiris who hate Pakistan with a passion because of their support to terrorists. And they include Hindu's as well as Muslims.

The vast majority cannot stand India and I say that being a Kashmiri myself. In my daily contact with occupied Kashmiri’s through Blogs, forums and when I go back to Azad Kashmir and meet numerous Kashmiri;s from the occupied side I have never met anyone who wanted to be part of India. The debate my friend in Kashmiri circles is about whether to join Pakistan or to be independent India does not even come into the equation.

 

[Adux]

The vast majority cannot stand India and I say that being a Kashmiri myself. In my daily contact with occupied Kashmiri’s through Blogs, forums and when I go back to Azad Kashmir and meet numerous Kashmiri;s from the occupied side I have never met anyone who wanted to be part of India. The debate my friend in Kashmiri circles is about whether to join Pakistan or to be independent India does not even come into the equation.

Maybe those people from India should just move over to Pakistan, After all it was created for people who thought living in India among people of the other religions was an insult. Most Kashmiri's I know; muslims i mean dont like to be called Pakistani's or doesnt want anything to do with them; They rather not be affliated to them, Most of them talk about the poverty in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, and this is especially after Kashmiri's were not going to allowed an option of being independent by Mushraff

 

[waz]

Maybe those people from India should just move over to Pakistan, After all it was created for people who thought living in India among people of the other religions was an insult. Most Kashmiri's I know; muslims i mean dont like to be called Pakistani's or doesnt want anything to do with them; They rather not be affliated to them, Most of them talk about the poverty in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, and this is especially after Kashmiri's were not going to allowed an option of being independent by Mushraff

Lol move over to Pakistan! how about you move off our land? By the way bright spark Kashmir was signed over by a tyrannical king, it was never envisaged to part of India, you do know about the Muslim majority areas little thing right that came about during the partition? I'd like to add the Kashmiri's you speak to will tell you what you want to hear as we know of the incidents of people being picked up for "anti India" sentiments but when they are amongst their own people they realty let loose…. Poverty in Azad Kashmir right, the area has better literacy rates than most of India and is flushed by investment form wealthy expatriate families. If you want to compare living conditions I can do that as well.

Kashmiri's not being allowed to go independent? Firstly would India which holds the greater land mass? Oh shouldn’t really mention that seeing as you have strong of broken promises that date back to Nehru….

 

[waz]

Maybe those people from India should just move over to Pakistan, After all it was created for people who thought living in India among people of the other religions was an insult.

Sounds like your advocating ethnic cleansing here....

As for your insult towards Pakistan about it being created for people who saw it insulting to live with people of differing faiths no that’s not the reason. Here is the reason….



This, he says, is the life of a Muslim in India, And perhaps for the first time, this Hindu nation is beginning to believe him. For the past 60 years, Indian Muslims have more often been the subjects of blame - for terrorism and the 1947 partition with Pakistan - than sympathy

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0104/p01s04-wosc.html

 

[Contrarian]

Waz, i know of equal number of Kashmiri muslims who would prefer to stay with India. So the statement that all Kashmiris want out is not valid, i am sure you wil agree to that. The majority or minority maybe, but not all. Now the question comes, Pakistan is fighting for the Kashmiris who they say dont want to be part of India, and you can say India is fighting for those who dont want to be part of Pakistan or independent! Do you get me, this logic is not right.

What i will however say is that it is true most of the population in Kashmir in the 1940's and onwards did not want to be part of India, but be independent or join Pakistan or whatever. BUT now as time has progressed, many have realised that staying in India is better for them for whatever reasons they may be. And as time further progresses, this percentage of people will only increase, as the quality of their life increases, as there is more development in Kashmir, as there is more literacy in Kashmir. This is a universal fact. Even China which occupied Tibet, had a lot of opposition in the begning, but faces comparatively less now, and China's estimation is that in another 40-50 years, this will also dissolve.

The same thing happened in Punjab, do you know after the resistence of Punjab, that is after the storming of the Golden Temple,when the movement was crushed, time took its course, Punjab prospered and when the second in command came to India to incite the Sikhs again after his stint in UK/Canada for some time, he got beat up by the Punjabis themselves that they wanted no part in this and they were happy.

The same way, time is on India's side, the more time, Kashmir remains with India, the significantly greater percentage of population will want to remain in India and give opposition to terrorrism. Infact this has been one of the MOST cruicial reasons why terroists no longer enjoy the MASS support they used to. Because of their own habits of killing kashmiris along with IA, as well as greater time and development in India.

And please, dont call Muslims in India as being subjugated. Its an insult to all my muslim friends if you say that. They live equally, for India, is not for Hindu's to claim, but Muslims as well as any other religion that resides in her. If you ever come to India, i challenge you to say your name anywhere, and there would be no second thoughts or change in attitudes(just dont say you come from Pakistan). Its a daily part of life. If muslims were there in extreme minority, this would have been even thinkable, but the vast number of muslims means that they are as much a part of everyday lives of every person.

 

[Adux]

Sounds like your advocating ethnic cleansing here....

As for your insult towards Pakistan about it being created for people who saw it insulting to live with people of differing faiths no that’s not the reason. Here is the reason….



This, he says, is the life of a Muslim in India, And perhaps for the first time, this Hindu nation is beginning to believe him. For the past 60 years, Indian Muslims have more often been the subjects of blame - for terrorism and the 1947 partition with Pakistan - than sympathy

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0104/p01s04-wosc.html

Partition was ethnic cleansing, I never implied, Dont twist my words for your little propaganda. It doesnt matter what kind of King he was; According to Declaration of Independence of India and Pakistan with the Britsh, The Kings would choose; thats the end of it. Not an inch of Indian land would be given, Simple.

 

[waz]

Waz, i know of equal number of Kashmiri muslims who would prefer to stay with India. So the statement that all Kashmiris want out is not valid, i am sure you wil agree to that. The majority or minority maybe, but not all.

With the utmost respect are you trying to tell me that you an ethnically non Kashmiri Indian knows an equal amount of Muslim Kashmiri's than I do? I am a Kashmiri as are my family and we have lived in the region always and do so now. I am firmly in contact with people on our side and on the other side of the LOC and they do not share the opinion above. If that was so you wouldn’t be seeing the thousands coming on the streets in demonstrations, you wouldn’t see the high level of rebel attacks and activity, which obviously needs a support base to operate form within the valley due the area being highly concentrated by military personal.

Now the question comes, Pakistan is fighting for the Kashmiris who they say dont want to be part of India, and you can say India is fighting for those who dont want to be part of Pakistan or independent! Do you get me, this logic is not right.

The Kashmiri's themselves are fighting for this right [either of the two options], sorry but those who want to side with India are a tiny minority at best.

What i will however say is that it is true most of the population in Kashmir in the 1940's and onwards did not want to be part of India, but be independent or join Pakistan or whatever. BUT now as time has progressed, many have realised that staying in India is better for them for whatever reasons they may be.

No and this shows me that your conversations with Kashmiri's have been quite short or you don't know many. These are the grandchildren of the folk whose dream was to join Pakistan and these traditions have been handed down to the younger generations. Nothing has changed apart from a slight majority favours total independence form both states.

And as time further progresses, this percentage of people will only increase, as the quality of their life increases, as there is more development in Kashmir, as there is more literacy in Kashmir.

See you are wrong here, that percentage wont increase and hasn't and I have had these debates with other Indian folk many years ago now and if anything the pro Independence parties have the majority support. The simple fact is you can make a prison cell as comfortable as you like with satellite TV, nice furniture etc but it still remains a prison and you are being supervised/occupied whatever people may want to call it. Until and only until you give the freedom to choose will things change.

This is a universal fact. Even China which occupied Tibet, had a lot of opposition in the begning, but faces comparatively less now, and China's estimation is that in another 40-50 years, this will also dissolve.

The similitude is flawed for a number of reasons firstly the Tibetans do not have a sizable population of their kin divided by a line/border so the support for independence is small. With Kashmir you have on our side 3 million who call for a unified state and in many case have carried the banner for Kashmir internationally. Secondly by and large the Tibetans are not as different compared to the Chinese as the Kashmiri Muslim folk are to the rest of the India and their closet relatives and kin are on the Pakistan side so they will always feel a sense of isolation and resentment that their people are not allowed to be one again. Thirdly the whole issue involves two sovereign nations [India and Pakistan] where as Tibet was by itself with the China situation.

The same way, time is on India's side, the more time, Kashmir remains with India, the significantly greater percentage of population will want to remain in India and give opposition to terrorrism. Infact this has been one of the MOST cruicial reasons why terroists no longer enjoy the MASS support they used to. Because of their own habits of killing kashmiris along with IA, as well as greater time and development in India.

Again you are raising the same point and if we look at history that is not simply true. The Kashmiri people are one nation and you can't keep them divided look at the Berlin wall. Would you say that time dampened the spirits of the Germans to be one people again? Or more wanted to say with the soviets or stay with the western nations as a divided nation? The answer is no. What about the two Koreas? The southern Koreans are longing for the day the North joins them and feelings in the North are the same once their dictatorship finishes. It's not a case of economics but love for your fellow kin to be united.

And please, dont call Muslims in India as being subjugated. Its an insult to all my muslim friends if you say that. They live equally, for India, is not for Hindu's to claim, but Muslims as well as any other religion that resides in her. If you ever come to India, i challenge you to say your name anywhere, and there would be no second thoughts or change in attitudes(just dont say you come from Pakistan). Its a daily part of life. If muslims were there in extreme minority, this would have been even thinkable, but the vast number of muslims means that they are as much a part of everyday lives of every person.

Malaymishra it’s not me who is saying that but international renowned journals and experts. The Indian government itself complied such a report. Ok let's leave out the word subjugated as that is a tad bit strong but there is real discrimination there and my reply was only to Adux who insulted Pakistan. Some areas are better than others much better in fact like Southern India but there are serious problems in the North, this however is another topic.

 

[waz]

Partition was ethnic cleansing, I never implied, Dont twist my words for your little propaganda. It doesnt matter what kind of King he was; According to Declaration of Independence of India and Pakistan with the Britsh, The Kings would choose; thats the end of it. Not an inch of Indian land would be given, Simple.

I don't need to twist your words dear boy they are already full of venom ....Telling the native people to leave their land tut tut. Nope actually the people were to choose with a plebiscite and as for your macho bravado about not an inch of land will be given, that’s fine the independence movement just gets stronger and likewise we won't tolerate your occupation…..

 

[Bull]

No but we are sincere for lasting peace and if we work hard to satisfy all parties the terrorists will be tamed.

janbaz you speak for yourself and i do appreciate that. But I dont trust the people who runs your govt nor the PA nor the ISI.

 

[Contrarian]

Waz,
Do you deny that terrorist struggle has gone down in the valley? Do you know that now more people support staying in India than before. The values of freedom as such maybe being handed down from father to son, but integration of India is much faster, there are kashmiris who are going elsewhere in the country for jobs, education, going in IIT and IIM's. They are getting money and things are changing. They see Pakistan, and they see no economic growth, they see bad reports in all newspapers related to even more terrorism, they see US forcing this or that on Pakistan and thus they decide that the better option would be to stay here. I have seen that, and i know many kashmiris, probably not as much as you do, but i know probably more kashmris on this side of the border than you do.

The values of freedom of which you speak, of rebeliion would only stay, if Kashmir would have stayed as isolated as it always was, that however is not the case.

Do you know, nowadays how many tip offs and info the army recieves in teh valley from Kashmiris, who run to the army at the mention of terrorists? Do you know that the support base that terrorists had at one point, is diminished by a good margin? Though still there, but has been reduced and will continue to be reduced. This is because of their own policy of killing civilians to force the GoI. This is the reason for shooting down of more terrorists now.

The longing is there to join Kashmir, but the solution is to stop terrorists , so that any Kashmiri from any side of the border can cross to the other side. Borders thus become irrelevant. For this to happen, terrorists have to be reigned in by Pakistan.

 

[Janbaz]

janbaz you speak for yourself and i do appreciate that. But I dont trust the people who runs your govt nor the PA nor the ISI.

I believe that we have to let go of some things and look beyond the obvious. Many might not trust the PA or our leader but live with him. Just hope for the best on your part, strive for peace and God will help, if all parties are sincere.

Janbaz,

Thank you, finally some sense of maturity and understanding in this forum. I apperciate your sense of optimism and desire. I really hope Peace prevails.

Same here, i hope for the same and am sure many more do to. I serously think that with sincere dialogue and hard efforts all issues can be settled. If there is a will there is a way.