Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Tank131]

But the US apparently allowed the LHTEC turboshaft to slide through with the T129, and hasn't done anything to stop the GE gas turbines for the MILGEM.

To be honest, we don't know if Khawaja Asif's statements re: Jordan are correct, especially as the PAF hasn't commented to that effect, not even when the CAS explicitly called the US out for bailing on the CSF/FMF (you'd think he would say something of Jordan?)

The point re: the Gripen E/F wasn't the electronics, but the range and payload capabilities, which can benefit the PAF in some fronts (i.e. maritime ops) sooner.

Thats a fair assessment. But will the chinese want the swedes getting so up close and personal with their design. I grant its not used by PLAAF, but it is their design and their manufacturing standards. They may not be keen to letting Europeans near their designs.

 

[randomradio]

The Block-III will not have the same physical/airframe improvements as the Gripen E/F, i.e. no new engine, not many range/payload improvements (maybe 9 hardpoints, but the 2 new ones may be for special mission pods, not weapons), no major airframe changes.

Basically, the point of Block-III is to bring AESA and other new tech to the mainstay PAF fleet, but it's not there to drastically alter range coverage or weapon carrying capability.

So the Block 3 is no different from the LCA Mk1A then?

Thats a fair assessment. But will the chinese want the swedes getting so up close and personal with their design. I grant its not used by PLAAF, but it is their design and their manufacturing standards. They may not be keen to letting Europeans near their designs.

The Chinese have no problem with Europeans messing around with the JF-17. Italy and France were once prime candidates for the JF-17's avionics build. Italy still is an option. Leonardo's new AESA radar and Virgilius EW suite are available for export.

The point re: the Gripen E/F wasn't the electronics, but the range and payload capabilities, which can benefit the PAF in some fronts (i.e. maritime ops) sooner.

With the exception of the larger radar and payload, the Gripen E is significantly superior to the Su-30MKI. It can lug two cruise missiles for maritime strike and can perform air defence with 6 AAMs in the same sortie.

 

[Tank131]

So the Block 3 is no different from the LCA Mk1A then?



The Chinese have no problem with Europeans messing around with the JF-17. Italy and France were once prime candidates for the JF-17's avionics build. Italy still is an option. Leonardo's new AESA radar and Virgilius EW suite are available for export.

Providing electronics is not the same as re-engineering a design. PAFs JF-17 use a spanish Indra ALR-400 RWR but its Pakistan that installed it. Same would be for other electronics.

Also remember those electronics werent chosen because chinese didn't want Europeans accessing their weapons' source codes and vis a versa.

Indian usa citizens are way more influential educated and way more united than Pakistani .

Influential yes, more educated probably not (more likely on even footing). Outside of NYC most pakistanis in US are professionals (doctors, lawyers, businessmen, engineers etc). The Pakistani diaspora in the US is not the same as in western europe. They are the largest Muslim immigrant community and the Muslim community as a whole is the single most educated, highest financial and educationally attaining community in the US. It has no influence for 3 major reasons.

1. Muslims are insular in many foreign places, preferring to meet only their own people and not interact with the community at large (thats changing thank God).

2. Muslims, Pakistani in particular, are kanjuse as hell abd dont want to open their wallets, neither for causes or political purposes (he who contributes to the campaign has the influence).

3. Pakistanis go into to private sector and prefer to make $$$ whereas many Indians and Jews go into academics and public sector/service. In that way they bring up others from their communities (be it into schools or government posts) amd Pakistani have no presence in these positions. When they do only 50% help other Pakistanis while the other 50% will try to trash the other Pakistani or at best not help get him/her a leg up. When you go only into private sector jobs you may have money, but if you dont spend it wisely you still have no influence. Money buys power if you spend it for power If you spend it for a Mercedes, all you are left with is a nice car.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Thats a fair assessment. But will the chinese want the swedes getting so up close and personal with their design. I grant its not used by PLAAF, but it is their design and their manufacturing standards. They may not be keen to letting Europeans near their designs.

IMO this is manageable. E.g. an extended range fighter is needed most in SAC, the PAF can re-purpose Masroor or Bholari to just carry the specific asset (e.g. Gripen E/F) with compatibles (e.g. Erieye) and let the OEM conduct its regular assessments. Unlike the US, the Swedes aren't there for extra-curricular purposes, so having them reside at Bholari (and that too under safe watch by the PAF's SSW, who will guard the combat assets from other threats) is all workable.

Seriously, I think we Pakistanis have forgotten (or not learned) how to "push" when there's space available to do so. Sure, India can dangle a giant bid to lure the Swedes, but if we were shrewd enough we'd have our negotiators tell the Swedes that we can guarantee a sale right now because we see alignment, whereas the Indians (and we should be able to argue this convincingly) are likely to favour the US or Russia for geo-strategic reasons, all the while Saab wastes time and money in a marketing risk. It may not be an inherently true argument on our end, but it's a skill I think other countries engage in so well while we simply let others shape reality for us...

 

[ziaulislam]

There's the new Grifo-E available.



India's practically given up on Saab. The focus has moved back to Rafale.



The Gripen E has 10 hardpoints and its wing and fuselage have been redesigned to hold a lot more.

You won't find an equivalent weapons loadout for either JF-17 blocks.



The entire Gripen airframe has seen redesign. Just look at the pic above and tell me whether that's just 33% more.

LCA Mk1 and JF-17 are very similar when it comes to range and payload, even the weapons layout. Gripen E is a generation ahead in terms of design.

As for Block 3, even with a new engine, you will still have to redesign the airframe if you want to achieve Gripen E's capabilities.

Ofcourse...
I don't know what block 3 holds ..if rd 93 ma is truely the engine than it does bring 15% more thrust..if B version is the basis of block3 it does bring more wing area ..this would mean block3 might see a major change , enough to improve its payload and range by 20%-30... This may also mean additional points under the wing..definitively 1 more under the airtake

We akready know it has an AESA ...

So only time will tell whther block3 will be a gripen like evolution or just a simple update or something inbetween

My personal guess is that wait time is too much for it to be a simple update

Providing electronics is not the same as re-engineering a design. PAFs JF-17 use a spanish Indra ALR-400 RWR but its Pakistan that installed it. Same would be for other electronics.

Also remember those electronics werent chosen because chinese didn't want Europeans accessing their weapons' source codes and vis a versa.



Influential yes, more educated probably not (more likely on even footing). Outside of NYC most pakistanis in US are professionals (doctors, lawyers, businessmen, engineers etc). The Pakistani diaspora in the US is not the same as in western europe. They are the largest Muslim immigrant community and the Muslim community as a whole is the single most educated, highest financial and educationally attaining community in the US. It has no influence for 3 major reasons.

1. Muslims are insular in many foreign places, preferring to meet only their own people and not interact with the community at large (thats changing thank God).

2. Muslims, Pakistani in particular, are kanjuse as hell abd dont want to open their wallets, neither for causes or political purposes (he who contributes to the campaign has the influence).

3. Pakistanis go into to private sector and prefer to make $$$ whereas many Indians and Jews go into academics and public sector/service. In that way they bring up others from their communities (be it into schools or government posts) amd Pakistani have no presence in these positions. When they do only 50% help other Pakistanis while the other 50% will try to trash the other Pakistani or at best not help get him/her a leg up. When you go only into private sector jobs you may have money, but if you dont spend it wisely you still have no influence. Money buys power if you spend it for power If you spend it for a Mercedes, all you are left with is a nice car.

Nope no... Indians are far far more educated than Pakistanis..especially the second generation

 

[randomradio]

Ofcourse...
I don't know what block 3 holds ..if rd 93 ma is truely the engine than it does bring 15% more thrust..if B version is the basis of block3 it does bring more wing area ..this would mean block3 might see a major change , enough to improve its payload and range by 20%-30... This may also mean additional points under the wing..definitively 1 more under the airtake

We akready know it has an AESA ...

So only time will tell whther block3 will be a gripen like evolution or just a simple update or something inbetween

My personal guess is that wait time is too much for it to be a simple update

I think the Block 3 design was frozen in early 2018. And production is to begin in 2019-20. So that's not a lot of time for extensive upgrades to the airframe.

 

[ziaulislam]

I think the Block 3 design was frozen in early 2018. And production is to begin in 2019-20. So that's not a lot of time for extensive upgrades to the airframe.

And was started on 2015..this is 3 years ..more than ample time..

 

[randomradio]

And was started on 2015..this is 3 years ..more than ample time..

That was the time it took to make a paper design.

I have my doubts because this is what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) pointed out in the previous page and makes sense based on the time frame:
The Block-III will not have the same physical/airframe improvements as the Gripen E/F, i.e. no new engine, not many range/payload improvements (maybe 9 hardpoints, but the 2 new ones may be for special mission pods, not weapons), no major airframe changes.

Basically, the point of Block-III is to bring AESA and other new tech to the mainstay PAF fleet, but it's not there to drastically alter range coverage or weapon carrying capability.

 

[ziaulislam]

That was the time it took to make a paper design.

I have my doubts because this is what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) pointed out in the previous page and makes sense based on the time frame:
The Block-III will not have the same physical/airframe improvements as the Gripen E/F, i.e. no new engine, not many range/payload improvements (maybe 9 hardpoints, but the 2 new ones may be for special mission pods, not weapons), no major airframe changes.

Basically, the point of Block-III is to bring AESA and other new tech to the mainstay PAF fleet, but it's not there to drastically alter range coverage or weapon carrying capability.

We don't know lets wait and see...key is engine ...whether rd93 gets mature or not

 

[Tank131]

IMO this is manageable. E.g. an extended range fighter is needed most in SAC, the PAF can re-purpose Masroor or Bholari to just carry the specific asset (e.g. Gripen E/F) with compatibles (e.g. Erieye) and let the OEM conduct its regular assessments. Unlike the US, the Swedes aren't there for extra-curricular purposes, so having them reside at Bholari (and that too under safe watch by the PAF's SSW, who will guard the combat assets from other threats) is all workable.

Seriously, I think we Pakistanis have forgotten (or not learned) how to "push" when there's space available to do so. Sure, India can dangle a giant bid to lure the Swedes, but if we were shrewd enough we'd have our negotiators tell the Swedes that we can guarantee a sale right now because we see alignment, whereas the Indians (and we should be able to argue this convincingly) are likely to favour the US or Russia for geo-strategic reasons, all the while Saab wastes time and money in a marketing risk. It may not be an inherently true argument on our end, but it's a skill I think other countries engage in so well while we simply let others shape reality for us...

Very well said

Ofcourse...
I don't know what block 3 holds ..if rd 93 ma is truely the engine than it does bring 15% more thrust..if B version is the basis of block3 it does bring more wing area ..this would mean block3 might see a major change , enough to improve its payload and range by 20%-30... This may also mean additional points under the wing..definitively 1 more under the airtake

We akready know it has an AESA ...

So only time will tell whther block3 will be a gripen like evolution or just a simple update or something inbetween

My personal guess is that wait time is too much for it to be a simple update


Nope no... Indians are far far more educated than Pakistanis..especially the second generation

Bro, im a second generation American Pakistani and you have no idea what you are talking about. The demographics speak foe themselves. Pakistanis and Muslims in US in general have the highest academic attainment, the highest percentages (ie per person) of graduate degrees (higher than bachelors) and lowest unemployment in the country.

While he is speaking about Muslims in general, Pakistanis make up 39% of American Muslims, the largest group outside of native African Americans who are 40%.

 

[MastanKhan]

IMO this is manageable. E.g. an extended range fighter is needed most in SAC, the PAF can re-purpose Masroor or Bholari to just carry the specific asset (e.g. Gripen E/F) with compatibles (e.g. Erieye) and let the OEM conduct its regular assessments. Unlike the US, the Swedes aren't there for extra-curricular purposes, so having them reside at Bholari (and that too under safe watch by the PAF's SSW, who will guard the combat assets from other threats) is all workable.

Seriously, I think we Pakistanis have forgotten (or not learned) how to "push" when there's space available to do so. Sure, India can dangle a giant bid to lure the Swedes, but if we were shrewd enough we'd have our negotiators tell the Swedes that we can guarantee a sale right now because we see alignment, whereas the Indians (and we should be able to argue this convincingly) are likely to favour the US or Russia for geo-strategic reasons, all the while Saab wastes time and money in a marketing risk. It may not be an inherently true argument on our end, but it's a skill I think other countries engage in so well while we simply let others shape reality for us...

Hi,

Both the bases are too close to the border for a extended range aircraft---.

Your extended range aircraft must never be close to the enemy borders---.

To place them in a position of vulnerability from day minus 1---totally defeats the purpose of this type of aircraft---.

 

[ziaulislam]

Very well said



Bro, im a second generation American Pakistani and you have no idea what you are talking about. The demographics speak foe themselves. Pakistanis and Muslims in US in general have the highest academic attainment, the highest percentages (ie per person) of graduate degrees (higher than bachelors) and lowest unemployment in the country.

While he is speaking about Muslims in general, Pakistanis make up 39% of American Muslims, the largest group outside of native African Americans who are 40%.

Just Google it...its not true

 

[Tank131]

Just Google it...its not true

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Americans

Stop talking about things you dont know anything about. If i googled to find out about Pakistan it would show me that everyone is a west hating terrorist who subjugates women and lives in a mud hut.

Infact its so much to the point in this country that on the MCAT (med school acceptance test) , There are separate boxes in ethnicity question on personal info, that is marked for Pakistani (when typically we are lumped in as Asian/Pacific islander). Beyond that being Indian or Pakistani counts against you in college/graduate applications because we are "over represented minority". And after India (as there are far more of them than Pakistanis, Pakistan has contributed tye 2nd most physicians to the US Healthcare system, folkowed by Phillipines.So please...stop your BS.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Ofcourse...
I don't know what block 3 holds ..if rd 93 ma is truely the engine than it does bring 15% more thrust..if B version is the basis of block3 it does bring more wing area ..this would mean block3 might see a major change , enough to improve its payload and range by 20%-30... This may also mean additional points under the wing..definitively 1 more under the airtake

We akready know it has an AESA ...

So only time will tell whther block3 will be a gripen like evolution or just a simple update or something inbetween

My personal guess is that wait time is too much for it to be a simple update


Nope no... Indians are far far more educated than Pakistanis..especially the second generation

Saab itself is saying the Gripen E/F is basically a different fighter to the Gripen C/D, and we can see it both in terms of the specifications and the time it took to develop, test and certify this aircraft (almost 10 years, end-to-end).

The Block-III's design was frozen in 2015 and is to enter production in 2019-2020, so there's no way we're talking about a significant re-design or re-engine. Such changes require a lot more time (just see the Gripen E/F).

That said, the Gripen E/F does provide a good template of what can be done for Project Azm. In this case, you have an engine which is an upgraded derivative of the GE F404, but is capable of lifting 1.5x more payload and providing more range than the current C/D. It also provides supercruise.

In other words (@MastanKhan @CriticalThought) the PAF can approach Project Azm in a similar way, i.e. achieve it a 1.5x range and payload increase over the Block-III, but with a low radar RCS airframe, all the while still benefiting from a relatively low-cost turbofan platform. This also fits with @messiach's statements about Project Azm 'not being a significant departure from the JF-17' while still respecting the idea of a next-generation fighter.

The only question is the engine. Naturally, the RD-93MA would have made sense initially as it's a relative of the RD-93 (much like the Gripen E/F's F414 is a relative of the C/D's F404), but a rumoured ~90kN afterburn thrust wouldn't cut it for a next-gen fighter with clear range and payload improvements. Rather, you'd need to reach the 98~100 kN thrust of the F414, which also respects @messiach's point that the engine for Azm will be new.

 

[Avicenna]

Saab itself is saying the Gripen E/F is basically a different fighter to the Gripen C/D, and we can see it both in terms of the specifications and the time it took to develop, test and certify this aircraft (almost 10 years, end-to-end).

The Block-III's design was frozen in 2015 and is to enter production in 2019-2020, so there's no way we're talking about a significant re-design or re-engine. Such changes require a lot more time (just see the Gripen E/F).

That said, the Gripen E/F does provide a good template of what can be done for Project Azm. In this case, you have an engine which is an upgraded derivative of the GE F404, but is capable of lifting 1.5x more payload and providing more range than the current C/D. It also provides supercruise.

In other words (@MastanKhan @CriticalThought) the PAF can approach Project Azm in a similar way, i.e. achieve it a 1.5x range and payload increase over the Block-III, but with a sharp emphasis on low radar RCS, all the while still benefiting from a relatively low-cost turbofan platform. This also fits with @messiach's statements about Project Azm 'not being a significant departure from the JF-17' while still respecting the idea of a next-generation fighter.

The only question is the engine. Naturally, the RD-93MA would have made sense initially as it's a relative of the RD-93 (much like the Gripen E/F's F414 is a relative of the C/D's F404), but a rumoured ~90kN afterburn thrust wouldn't cut it for a next-gen fighter with clear range and payload improvements. Rather, you'd need to reach the 98~100 kN thrust of the F414, which also respects @messiach's point that the engine for Azm will be new.

If that’s the case, then Azm represents the eventual supplement and then replacement for the JF-17?

What about the top end; replacement of the F-16s?