Pakistan: Christian women are considered the booty of war

[Jackdaws]

How long after the American Civil war did racist and segregationist policies and public sentiment continue?

In terms of public sentiment, racism in the US still exists, and one only has to interact with people in the proper manner to have them display racism and prejudice, even when conversing with a 'colored Pakistani' like myself.

The point being that social change does not come about quickly and easily, but what is necessary is sustained public discourse using whatever platform is available so that such change may be affected, through parliament or the judiciary or civil society protests.

USA is probably the worst example of a society granting equal rights. Either way, this is 2010 and the rulers and upper crust of Pakistani society which pretty much runs that country have been educated and move in liberal, western circles. I am not saying that discrimination will end anytime soon at the societal level - even today you would be discriminated against in the USA if you are a Muslim or if you are an African American but the constitution and the state does not discriminate, let alone facilitate discrimination through a blasphemy law. That should be repealed everywhere.

 

[rameez ahmed]

The Hadith are not infallible or perfect in Islam, only the Quran is believed to be so as the word of Allah.

Where in the Quran does it say that Blasphemy should be punished by death and that Ahmadi's cannot call themselves what they please and practice their religion as they please?

And how does the Quran define Blasphemy?

Firstly,Just because of some hadiths being unreliable, you have no right to say that all hadith and sunnah are not perfect..... This Fitna was created by non muslims just to destroy the Wonderful Sunnah of our Holy Prophet (SA) . Please don't be a part of it...

Secondly Brother you should be clear that we have two sources of Law, not one.. they are Quran and Sunnah... Sunnah is also a law because Holy Prophet (SA) did only what was told to him by Allah.. there is a famous Ayat in Quran. i don't exactly know its source. if any one knows then please contribute here. that Ayat says:

"He (Muhammad SA) Doesn't speaks in vain. He speaks in Revelations"​

Every conduct and every saying of Holy Prophet (SA) is the Law of Islam as it was ordered by Allah to Holy Prophet (SA) to be done... Holy Prophet (SA) NEVER did anything that was against the Orders of Allah .. So if He ordered to kill the non Muslims who did such Blasphemy to Our Holy Prophet (SA) , it was according to the Will of Allah and so it is a Law of Islam...

Once Hazrat Maaz (RA) was declared Governor of Yemen by Holy Prophet (SA). Holy Prophet (SA) asked him "How will you govern Yemen?" He replied "By Quran."..... Holy Prophet (SA) further said; "what will you do if you are not able to find the guidance in Quran?" he Replied "I will consult Sunnah", Holy Prophet (SA) further enquired "What will you do if you are not able to find the solution in Sunnah" Hazrat Maaz (RA) replied "I will do Ijtihaad".. Holy Prophet (SA) was very Pleased with his reply and sent him to Yemen...

So the above Hadith proves that if we can't find any solution to the issue in Quran, then Shariah says us to Obey Hadith and Sunnah..

Thirdly, you enquired about Ahmedis in Quran..

By name, Ahmedis are not mentioned in Quran, because this Fitna didn't existed at the time of Prophet (SA)....

But when Quran and Holy Prophet (SA) declares, that Prophet Muhammad (SA) is the last Prophet of Allah and their will be no Prophet after him, then those who claims Prophethood after Prophet (SA) are all Kafir and their followers are also Kafir , because they destroyed their believe in the Finality of Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (SA).....

If they claim themselves to be Muslims and calls their places of Worship as Masjid, it will Damage Islam Severely because it will create another false Sect in Islam that will have A highly Significant difference in Belief...

Sunni-Shia mainly have differences about the Companions of Prophet (SA). But this Kafir sect have a difference in one of the Most Important Belief of Islam i.e Finality of Prophethood...

If this Sect is declared as Muslims, then We will be considering Holy Prophet (SA) as the Last Prophet , and these people will be considering the maniac Qadyani to be their Prophet, and still they will be calling themsleves Muslims .. ... And we should recognise that "This is not small issue. this Fitna is one of the Biggest Fitnahs of Islam"

And still if we allow them to say that they are Muslims , Then really SHAME ON US, that we were not able to stop them from calling themselves muslims...

As far as your last question is concerned, The Holy Quran may contain such ayat, but I have no Ayat of Quran in my knowledge that defines Blasphemy... .... If any one can contribute here it will be really beneficial.

 

[T-Faz]

Pakistan will remain an intolerant and backward state till such laws exist and people such as the poster above are around with their vague ideas of scripture to defend them.

 

[rameez ahmed]

Pakistan will remain an intolerant and backward state till such laws exist and people such as the poster above are around with their vague ideas of scripture to defend them.

Damage Islam severely, your Ameer Bin Laden with your brothers the Taliban have damaged Islam severely for decades to come.

What a ******* nut job.

First of all brother, you have no right to make me a follower of terrorist like Laden... Secondly if I am wrong then guide me and tell me what Quran and Sunnah really says if you are claiming that I am wrong.....

If you have no proof from Islamic Law to prove me wrong, then you have no right to say that I am wrong.....

If you have references that prove me wrong, then please contribute here, but don't make any personal comments about me... i have said what is in Quran and hadith..

Prove me wrong and I will correct myself...

 

[T-Faz]

First of all brother, you have no right to make me a follower of terrorist like Laden... Secondly if I am wrong then guide me and tell me what Quran and Sunnah really says if you are claiming that I am wrong.....

If you have no proof from Islamic Law to prove me wrong, then you have no right to say that I am wrong.....

If you have references that prove me wrong, then please contribute here, but don't make any personal comments about me... i have said what is in Quran and hadith..

Prove me wrong and I will correct myself...

Prove you wrong with what exactly, a few vaguely posted verses that do not allude to what you are defending and proclaiming here.

Islam as an ideology will continue to live as it has because of Allah, not because of some followers who failed to grasp the message of Islam itself and have become self appointed defenders of it. The Quran and Sunnah have different interpretations according to sects, a case in matter would be the ideological point of views of sects like deobandis and wahabis who promote a violent version of the said scriptures.

As it is Allah to whom everything returns, we should let him be the judge in ideological matters because what you might consider to be the right stance will be refuted by another. In such occasions, a concrete answer cannot be reached and it is Allah alone who can decide.

Hadith are infallible, the first complete account was written hundred of years after the Prophet (PBUH) passed away and thus they cannot be used as means of manufacturing laws or undertaking actions. Quran being the word of Allah is complete and thus the only text that can be used to develop a way of life but certain things remain out of the grasp for humans.

The Quran says and I quote:

"To you be your religion and to me my religion "

If Allah as so wills a new religion, sect or blasphemous person to be a corruptive influence onto his religion, then Allah can and will deal with it himself by creating the means of such.

However if something continues to grow, prosper or live, then it is the will of Allah that makes it happen.

Btw, the only real damage to Islam is not some blasphemy or Kafir sects but Muslims themselves.

 

[T-Faz]

One more thing that Pakistanis need to learn is that according to Islam, the perverse and corrupt societies will suffer from great calamities until they correct their behaviour and themselves.

The Quran states that the people who are on the wrong path will be like followers in the dark who will suffer from one disaster after another. Man made or natural, the disasters will move the people to their knees and they will ask for forgiveness but no one will be there to answer.

Pakistan, Afghanistan and a host of other nations within the Ummah fit this profile very well, wouldn't you agree.

Time to ponder what has gone so wrong.

 

[Vassnti]

Prove me wrong and I will correct myself...

A good start however seeing you are claiming the right to kill people perhaps you should be providing the proof.

I will however provide a few points to ponder.

We did not leave anything out of this book, then all will be gathered before their Lord (for judgment). Those who do not believe our verses are deaf and dumb; in total darkness. God sends astray whomever He wills, and directs whomever He wills in the right path." (6:38-39)

As far as your last question is concerned, The Holy Quran may contain such ayat, but I have no Ayat of Quran in my knowledge that defines Blasphemy...

Well if you cant find one then i would suggest you either start looking or do not accuse others of a sin when you have no proof the Quran says such a thing.

 

[rameez ahmed]

Prove you wrong with what exactly, a few vaguely posted verses that do not allude to what you are defending and proclaiming here.

Islam as an ideology will continue to live as it has because of Allah, not because of some followers who failed to grasp the message of Islam itself and have become self appointed defenders of it. The Quran and Sunnah have different interpretations according to sects, a case in matter would be the ideological point of views of sects like deobandis and wahabis who promote a violent version of the said scriptures.

As it is Allah to whom everything returns, we should let him be the judge in ideological matters because what you might consider to be the right stance will be refuted by another. In such occasions, a concrete answer cannot be reached and it is Allah alone who can decide.

Hadith are infallible, the first complete account was written hundred of years after the Prophet (PBUH) passed away and thus they cannot be used as means of manufacturing laws or undertaking actions. Quran being the word of Allah is complete and thus the only text that can be used to develop a way of life but certain things remain out of the grasp for humans.

The Quran says and I quote:

"To you be your religion and to me my religion "

If Allah as so wills a new religion, sect or blasphemous person to be a corruptive influence onto his religion, then Allah can and will deal with it himself by creating the means of such.

However if something continues to grow, prosper or live, then it is the will of Allah that makes it happen.

Btw, the only real damage to Islam is not some blasphemy or Kafir sects but Muslims themselves.

The Ayat and Hadith I have quoted are not vague. If you are claiming so, then please prove it rather than just claiming it….

Secondly, Islam as an Ideology will live undoubtedly forever because of Allah’s Will and Allah is alone its Defender as you said. But Quran declares man as Khalifah of Allah in Surah Al Baqarah. Khalifah means the one who is representative of Allah and his Religion. As a Khalifah of Allah it is Obligatory on us to struggle for Islam and to defend the right Islam when any Fitna arrises , rather than just sitting and claiming that Allah will come and solve our problems on Earth. Allah has given us Quran and Sunnah as guidance and every answer to our problem is contained in these two…

There is no conflict between various Muslims sects on the Issue of Finality of Prophethood. So who ever claims to be Prophet is indeed not a muslim. This is agreed by every sect. So why are you willing to Give Ahmedis right to call themselves a Muslim?????

Thirdly, I will say you again that, some Hadiths are unreliable and not every Hadith. This is agreed by Islamic Scholars of every age. Many Islamic Scholars have devoted their life to separate the Unreliable Hadith and Reliable Hadith. And Many Hadiths identified by them as unreliable
.
There are many matters on which Quran has just stated one Ayah, but that matter is further described in Hadith and Sunnah of Prophet (SA)…

Those Hadith that are declared reliable by Islamic Scholars, gives us the true sayings of Prophet (SA) and reflects the true Sunnah that we have to follow…. So it is Obligatory on us to follow the reliable Hadith... You are no one to say that all Hadith are unreliable……. Where we are unable to find the guidance in Quran, then we have to follow Hadith and Sunnah….

The Ayat you have here that says “To you be your religion and to me my religion” it is Taken for Surah Al Kafiroon (Surah no. 109), that relates specifically to Kuffaar . So by quoting yourself this Ayat for Qadiaynis, you yourself have declared them kafir. That is what I wanted to prove, that Qadiyanis are kafir and not Muslims. so they have no right to call themsleves Muslims...

Brother Allah doesn’t wishes any new religion to come, as you have said here.. If He had wished so, then Allah wouldn’t had declared Islam as the final Religion and Holy Prophet (SA) as the Final Prophet of Allah…. Any new religion that comes now is fake and it is the duty of Muslim to struggle against it , rather than just sitting in their houses and enemies of Islam like Qadiyanis destroying the True Islam ….

Finally, In your last line you said that “Btw, the only real damage to Islam is not some blasphemy or Kafir sects but Muslims themselves”.I truly agree with you that that we suffered a lot from our own Brothers. But I want to ask you that then why are you supporting these Qadiyanis to be called Muslims, when they claim to be Muslims, and instead they don’t Believe that Prophet (SA) was the Last Prophet of Allah?. Are they not destroying the Fundamental Belief of Islam that Prophet Muhammad (SA) is the Last Messanger of Allah?

 

[roach]

The Ayat and Hadith I have quoted are not vague. If you are claiming so, then please prove it rather than just claiming it….

Secondly, Islam as an Ideology will live undoubtedly forever because of Allah’s Will and Allah is alone its Defender as you said. But Quran declares man as Khalifah of Allah in Surah Al Baqarah. Khalifah means the one who is representative of Allah and his Religion. As a Khalifah of Allah it is Obligatory on us to struggle for Islam and to defend the right Islam when any Fitna arrises , rather than just sitting and claiming that Allah will come and solve our problems on Earth. Allah has given us Quran and Sunnah as guidance and every answer to our problem is contained in these two…

There is no conflict between various Muslims sects on the Issue of Finality of Prophethood. So who ever claims to be Prophet is indeed not a muslim. This is agreed by every sect. So why are you willing to Give Ahmedis right to call themselves a Muslim?????

Thirdly, I will say you again that, some Hadiths are unreliable and not every Hadith. This is agreed by Islamic Scholars of every age. Many Islamic Scholars have devoted their life to separate the Unreliable Hadith and Reliable Hadith. And Many Hadiths identified by them as unreliable
.
There are many matters on which Quran has just stated one Ayah, but that matter is further described in Hadith and Sunnah of Prophet (SA)…

Those Hadith that are declared reliable by Islamic Scholars, gives us the true sayings of Prophet (SA) and reflects the true Sunnah that we have to follow…. So it is Obligatory on us to follow the reliable Hadith... You are no one to say that all Hadith are unreliable……. Where we are unable to find the guidance in Quran, then we have to follow Hadith and Sunnah….

The Ayat you have here that says “To you be your religion and to me my religion” it is Taken for Surah Al Kafiroon (Surah no. 109), that relates specifically to Kuffaar . So by quoting yourself this Ayat for Qadiaynis, you yourself have declared them kafir. That is what I wanted to prove, that Qadiyanis are kafir and not Muslims. so they have no right to call themsleves Muslims...

Brother Allah doesn’t wishes any new religion to come, as you have said here.. If He had wished so, then Allah wouldn’t had declared Islam as the final Religion and Holy Prophet (SA) as the Final Prophet of Allah…. Any new religion that comes now is fake and it is the duty of Muslim to struggle against it , rather than just sitting in their houses and enemies of Islam like Qadiyanis destroying the True Islam ….

Finally, In your last line you said that “Btw, the only real damage to Islam is not some blasphemy or Kafir sects but Muslims themselves”.I truly agree with you that that we suffered a lot from our own Brothers. But I want to ask you that then why are you supporting these Qadiyanis to be called Muslims, when they claim to be Muslims, and instead they don’t Believe that Prophet (SA) was the Last Prophet of Allah?. Are they not destroying the Fundamental Belief of Islam that Prophet Muhammad (SA) is the Last Messanger of Allah?

DUDE you just don't get it do you???????

Follow something too literally, without questioning it......that's called fanaticism.
Getting too technical while passing judgment is what God does, leave it to him! Calling someone a non-believer implies that you are PERRRRFECT. Are you????

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Refute them?


How many times should these accusations be refuted? You act as if this is something new, the threads/propaganda criticizing Pakistani treatment of minorities haven't been debated before. If you had experience with such threads before, I should know because I've been around long enough, these threads lead to ad nauseum. Pakistanis in the past have refuted many allegations with sources, with their own opinions, with contradicting information, and have condemned wrongful treatment of minorities before.


Yet here you come along and say "refute them" how many times? Hundred? These threads are the same type of propaganda that get delivered in different packaging. I think the thread should be closed, because it leads to only flame and nowhere (you've already had to delete posts), and as I mentioned before Pakistanis shouldn't be trialed for the same thing twice. It is only fair and just.

I spent my youth in Pakistan and was brought up in a convent in PAKISTAN, because both my parents were professionals and seldom spent time in Pakistan i would often spend the summer visiting my Christian friend who became my extended family.

During my time i have seen a degree of injustice committed against minorities, but in general Christians the most tolerated minority in Pakistan.

A perfect example is the commercial shire of Lalkurti ( Named Lal Kurti after the Red Coated Soldiers of the Royal Lancer's Regiment stationed here).

It is host to a sizeable Christian community and houses many convents, Christian missionary schools and churches. Mashallah to this day there has never been a incident involving terrorism or prejudice towards Christians living in this area.

Another example is Gora Gali in Murree, this remote location houses a small yet thriving Christian community and the local hilltops are doted with chapels and churches which further add to it's old worldly charm.

Again, despite all the violence and terrorism having griped the nation this area is largely un-effected, apart from one incident in 2008.

In addition there are thousands of iconic churches dotted around capital and provincial cities where Christians practice their faith without let or hindrance...

So yes whilst there is injustice and prejudice it is unfair to say it in unique to Pakistan alone:

^ This is a picture in Greece where posters stating MUSLIMS out, no more mosques were slammed on mosques around greece, where worshippers going to celebrate eid were pelted with eggs.

Bigots are everywhere. If you judge a nation by it's bigots then we live in a very small world.

BTW:
Minister backs new probe in case of arrested Christian DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

 

[Icarus]

I think this Nasir Saeed guy doesn't get out much, sure our people can be a little annoying, asking non-muslims to convert to Islam over and over again but it's not as bad as the guy says it is..........I know loads of christians and a Hindu, they are all living quite happily. My hindu friend is a millionaire..........he's living the life, no one hates him for his success......this article is a case of "Criminal Exaggeration".

 

[rameez ahmed]

DUDE you just don't get it do you???????

Follow something too literally, without questioning it......that's called fanaticism.
Getting too technical while passing judgment is what God does, leave it to him! Calling someone a non-believer implies that you are PERRRRFECT. Are you????

Muslims have to follow Islam literally without questioning that whether the order of Allah and Prophet (SA) is right or wrong... Because everything stated in Quran and done by Holy Prophet (SA) is true and is the Law of Islam.....

It can be in other religions that their followers may questioned whether the order of their so called God is correct or not.. In Islam Muslims have to follow Islamic Laws without questioning.

We call someone unbeliever if he doesn't follow the Fundamental Beliefs and Laws of Islam.. If it is done by someone, then he is non believer. their is question about it...

Finally no one is perfect in this world.. The only perfect Human on Earth, who never committed a single mistake was Prophet Muhammad (SA) and after him are all the other Prophets of Allah (that includes Jesus, Moses, David and all others) who were free from all sins and never committed one...

the Islamic Scholars declares Qadiyanis as non Muslims because they don't believe in the Finality of Prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad (SA).. Believing in Finality of Prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad (SA) is the Funadamental Believe, and those who differs with that are non Muslims...

so I am saying them as Non Muslims, not because I am perfect. I am saying them Non Muslims because they don't believe in one the Fundamental belief of Islam....

 

[Spring Onion]

I spent my youth in Pakistan and was brought up in a convent in PAKISTAN, because both my parents were professionals and seldom spent time in Pakistan i would often spend the summer visiting my Christian friend who became my extended family.

During my time i have seen a degree of injustice committed against minorities, but in general Christians the most tolerated minority in Pakistan.

A perfect example is the commercial shire of Lalkurti ( Named Lal Kurti after the Red Coated Soldiers of the Royal Lancer's Regiment stationed here).

It is host to a sizeable Christian community and houses many convents, Christian missionary schools and churches. Mashallah to this day there has never been a incident involving terrorism or prejudice towards Christians living in this area.

Another example is Gora Gali in Murree, this remote location houses a small yet thriving Christian community and the local hilltops are doted with chapels and churches which further add to it's old worldly charm.

Again, despite all the violence and terrorism having griped the nation this area is largely un-effected, apart from one incident in 2008.

In addition there are thousands of iconic churches dotted around capital and provincial cities where Christians practice their faith without let or hindrance...

So yes whilst there is injustice and prejudice it is unfair to say it in unique to Pakistan alone:

^ This is a picture in Greece where posters stating MUSLIMS out, no more mosques were slammed on mosques around greece, where worshippers going to celebrate eid were pelted with eggs.

Bigots are everywhere. If you judge a nation by it's bigots then we live in a very small world.

BTW:
Minister backs new probe in case of arrested Christian DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia

Thank you Paladin. It reminds me that we here in Khyber Pukhtunkhwa/NWFP have large number of Christians and if anyone knows cantonment Peshawar we have a Mosque and Church along side adjacent to each other here its such a fine example you will not find anywhere else.

And on every Christmas Peshawar PTV center prepares programs which are broadcast round Pakistan on all centers of PTV.

we have a large number of Christian singers and artists who are respected alot besides a large number of nurses from this community.

 

[Spring Onion]

Pakistan will remain an intolerant and backward state till such laws exist and people such as the poster above are around with their vague ideas of scripture to defend them.

Damage Islam severely, your Ameer Bin Laden with your brothers the Taliban have damaged Islam severely for decades to come.

What a ******* nut job.

you are violating rules of this forum despite being a mod. You should not resort to personal attacks.

You have the right to express your views as well as other members have the right to express their opinion. You have NO right to call someone militant or OBL as his or her ameer.

None of us have called you kafir or non-Muslim despite the clear declaration according to constitution of Pakistan and Basics of Islam.

So fairness call for unbiased and fair treatment of members by you as well.


We are sick of free hands given to mods and some members calling all others as talibani who disagree with some people for their speeches against Islam.

 

[Bangalorean]

you are violating rules of this forum despite being a mod. You should not resort to personal attacks.

You have the right to express your views as well as other members have the right to express their opinion. You have NO right to call someone militant or OBL as his or her ameer.

None of us have called you kafir or non-Muslim despite the clear declaration according to constitution of Pakistan and Basics of Islam.

So fairness call for unbiased and fair treatment of members by you as well.


We are sick of free hands given to mods and some members calling all others as talibani who disagree with some people for their speeches against Islam.

The poster kept saying Kaafir, Kuffar, several times. What if T-Faz is Ahmadi (suppose)?

I agree with T-Faz, the point is simple: stop judging people based on how pure or how strictly "Islamic" they are, according to individual whims and fancies. Let god judge, you don't have to come in between.