Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[Cookie Monster]

I doubt that you'll need a thousand MBT as tip of spear, just not cost wise viable.

The problem is a lot of the Pakistani Indian border is good terrain for tank engagements. Whoever holds the advantage in MBTs and artillery commands the land battles. It is different from China versus India, where large or even medium tank battles are simply impossible due to the extremely high altitudes and mountainous terrain. That is why 600 to 1000 VT-4s is in the sights ... the current order of 300 is just the very beginning. Neither side has the ability to completely win the aerial war and use air superiority to level ground targets so tank warfare is still extremely crucial.

One of the major factors is already pointed out above by Figaro regarding the terrain and the long border...
...secondly India has like ~3500 tanks IIRC. In order to counter Indian armor and to be able to make its own armored thrusts...Pak needs a sizable number of tanks.

Last but not least...there are a lot of old tanks that would need to be replaced. With that all in mind...planning for 1000 VT4 seems sensible.

 

[JohnWick]

In the Iran Iraq War, the Iraqis never maintained complete air superiortiy in the 8 years of war even though they had many times more modern aircraft than the Iranians. The Indian Pakistani disparity is a lot smaller than the Iranian Iraqi one and Pakistan has a much much better supply situation than Iran. What this means is the PAF will have to be tactically skilled as much as possible and conserve resources ... but maintaining balance with the IAF even in a long term conflict is definietely doable. War is not just fought on numbers. Besides, India's MIC capability is extremely weak, so they will have to rely mostly on imports to make up for their losses.

In World War II, the Luftwaffe was still able to dominate the skies or at least contest air superiority in the Eastern Front until 1944 even though the VVS (Soviet AF) had many times greater number of aircraft.

we are nuclear power remember there will be a nuke launched its a war goes more than a week.

 

[Tipu7]

That's right, my post should have had the / to distinguish between the S and M version.

As for numbers, it's confusing, here from sources;

and 1,000-1,100 T-90 MBTs of both the MS and Bhishma S variants in service,

India’s Defense Ministry Signs $2.8 Billion Deal For 464 T-90MS Main Battle Tanks

The defense ministry concluded an agreement with the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board to license-build 464 T-90S main battle tanks.

thediplomat.com

The Army currently operates 1,100 T-90S tanks, of which 300 were directly procured from Russia.

India pays Russia $1.2 billion in technology transfer fees for T-90S tanks

India has awarded a $3.12 billion contract for local production of 464 T-90S main battle tanks after paying a technology transfer fee to Russia.

www.defensenews.com

There are currently around 1,000-1,100 T-90 MBTs of both the MS and Bhishma S variants in service, although the operational readiness rate of the tanks remains unclear. According to one estimate, 850-900 are of the T-90S Bhishma variant. Of the two, the T-

Meet India's T-90M Bhishma Tank: Russian Tech, Indian Made

A good combo?

nationalinterest.org

In all, India plans to have 310 T-90S and 1,330 T-90M tanks in service by 2020 (total of 1,657 tanks by 2020).

T-90M Bhishma:- India's Main Battle Tank (MBT) — Indian Defence News

The T-90 is a Russian third generation main battle tank.It is the latest development in the T-series of Russian tanks and represents an increase in firepower, mobility and protection. It is manufactured by Uralvagonzavod...

defenceupdate.in

The T-90S Bhishma is the main battle tank for the Indian Army. According to the Military Balance 2019 handbook published by the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), over 1,025 T-90S tanks are operational in the Indian Army at present

T-90 Bhisma

www.globalsecurity.org

India currently operates 2011 T-90S which were procured in three separate orders. Two batches (124 Russian built tanks and 186 tanks to be built in India in 2001 and a further 124 Russian built tanks and 223 tanks to be built in India in 2007) were purchased from Russia.

India orders extra 464 T-90 tanks from Russia

This $1.9 billion purchase of 464 new T-90MS tanks for 8 tank regiments at the Chinese border was approved in early November 2019.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

At present Indian Army is estimated to have more than 1600 T-90 Bhishma tanks and these numbers will cross 2000 by the year 2022.

Exclusive: Meet T-90 Bhishma, deadliest Indian Tank fighting China

Guarding India explained why T-90 Bhishma Main Battle Tank (MBT) is one of the deadliest tanks in the world. Check out our article to know.

guardingindia.com

Most say what you say i.e. around 1,500 T-90's, mix of variants. I also to believe this to be accurate, the other sources seem to have got things mixed up, hence my original post (2011 tanks).
That's actually good news i.e. they won't have over 2,000.

These all are screwed up information.

For example.
T90M is the most advance T90 version and is recently developed for Russian forces only. It's not available for export. However it's export version, called T90MS is meant for export which India is eyeing in large numbers (464 units).

Indian T90 fleet comprise of T90S version only, with mixed fleet of Russian produced and domestically produced tanks. Slight differences exist between different batches, but overall they all belong to T90S cetagory.

Similar misconception exist about Arjun fleet. There are numerous sources out there which claim India operate around 248 Arjun tanks. But in reality it operate 124 Arjun Mk1 tank and is yet to place order for 124 Arjun Mk2 tanks. Some clever/idiot added up the numbers of Arjun which exist and the numbers of Arjun which are planned, and created the confusion.

Same is problem with T90 numbers data. As far as I remember, by mid 2016, there were around 950 T90 tanks in Indian arsenal, and target was 1650 tanks in total. Now there are two possibilities

1: India has produced 1200 T90S and has placed order for 464 T90MS totalling 1650+ T90S/MS tanks in Indian arsenal in future.

2: India has achieved the production target of 1650 T90 tanks by secretly producing T90S tanks. It now has placed order for 464 T90MS which once delivered will reach the total of 2100+ T90 tanks in total.

The first case is more believable

 

[Vapour]

numbers mentioned by Tipu are correct, MS are on order, no MS as of now in IA...they only have S or Bhishma models.

Still better to overestimate rather than underestimate?

 

[Ghost 125]

Still better to overestimate rather than underestimate?

both will negatively impact planning. but we are not planners so no harm done

 

[Figaro]

both will negatively impact planning. but we are not planners so no harm done

Overestimation can also be very negative ... it can impede offensive planning and therefore strategic initiative. I would highly read up the story of General George B. McClellan of the Union Army in the United States Civil War, who is one of the best examples of how consistently overestimating the enemy can lead to very poor consequences.

George B. McClellan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Cuirassier]

These all are screwed up information.

For example.
T90M is the most advance T90 version and is recently developed for Russian forces only. It's not available for export. However it's export version, called T90MS is meant for export which India is eyeing in large numbers (464 units).

Indian T90 fleet comprise of T90S version only, with mixed fleet of Russian produced and domestically produced tanks. Slight differences exist between different batches, but overall they all belong to T90S cetagory.

Similar misconception exist about Arjun fleet. There are numerous sources out there which claim India operate around 248 Arjun tanks. But in reality it operate 124 Arjun Mk1 tank and is yet to place order for 124 Arjun Mk2 tanks. Some clever/idiot added up the numbers of Arjun which exist and the numbers of Arjun which are planned, and created the confusion.

Same is problem with T90 numbers data. As far as I remember, by mid 2016, there were around 950 T90 tanks in Indian arsenal, and target was 1650 tanks in total. Now there are two possibilities

1: India has produced 1200 T90S and has placed order for 464 T90MS totalling 1650+ T90S/MS tanks in Indian arsenal in future.

2: India has achieved the production target of 1650 T90 tanks by secretly producing T90S tanks. It now has placed order for 464 T90MS which once delivered will reach the total of 2100+ T90 tanks in total.

The first case is more believable

What are the T72 numbers? If we go by Wiki then at least 39 of their 66 tank regiments are equipped with them. 2 with the Arjun and the rest with T90s?

 

[Tipu7]

What are the T72 numbers? If we go by Wiki then at least 39 of their 66 tank regiments are equipped with them. 2 with the Arjun and the rest with T90s?

Around 1900. (Reserves are separate)

 

[Vapour]

both will negatively impact planning. but we are not planners so no harm done

Even if you overestimate by 2-3%? Given they already have superior numbers, isn't it better to consider that they have a few more than what is actually thought?

 

[Goenitz]

Overestimation can also be very negative

though intelligence failure but deadly consequences.. on response to few Soviets bombers, US made thousands to counter them

Bomber gap - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ghost 125]

Even if you overestimate by 2-3%? Given they already have superior numbers, isn't it better to consider that they have a few more than what is actually thought?

overestimation of 400 tanks means overestimating almost 9 extra regiments armed with T 90 MS... 9 regiments means 1 full armd division and one independent armd brigade....now think about it again and how it can change everything.

 

[Vapour]

overestimation of 400 tanks means overestimating almost 9 extra regiments armed with T 90 MS... 9 regiments means 1 full armd division and one independent armd brigade....now think about it again and how it can change everything.

I don't know how many T 90s they have, but let's assume it's 1,800 (as I've seen estimates ranging from 1,600 to 2,000 here), 3% of that is 54 tanks. Is that too much to overestimate?

 

[Ghost 125]

I don't know how many T 90s they have, but let's assume it's 1,800 (as I've seen estimates ranging from 1,600 to 2,000 here), 3% of that is 54 tanks. Is that too much to overestimate?

my earlier cmnt was regarding difference of 400 tanks. as waz and tipu7 were discussing

 

[Dazzler]

Around 1900. (Reserves are separate)

Less than 1700

 

[Cuirassier]

Less than 1700

don't add up with 66 tank regiments considering each has 45 tanks + a squadron of reserve.