Pakistan Army Infantry - Support from other Arms

[Armchair]

One solution could be to boost the JF-17 Block-III orders to 100+ and, in turn, re-work the 50 JF-17 Block-Is into dedicated close air support and ground attack aircraft. If anything, the A2A capabilities should be OK for guarding armoured formations from Jaguars, Apaches and LCHs. The A2G aspect may be more limited (I don't know, it will depend on what the internal limitations of the Block-I are when it comes to updating the electronics), but if they could make it compatible with the GB6 (Sino-JSOW), SALH YJ-9E, mmW YJ-9E, LGBs, LD-10 ARMs, laser-guided rockets, etc, it could be a respectable solution.

Two problems with that:
1. It is not possible to make CAS planes out of them - adding armour plating alone will upset the balance and spacing measures. CAS aircraft need to be built from the ground up
2. Too expensive for what you and I want - numbers that matter, not a handful of show horses. At 15 million a pop, the JFT was meant as a multirole aircraft that can do BVR and WVR.
Would be much cheaper to build a simple CAS platform. As I noted before, there are tech solutions the west did not take that can reduce the price of such a solution to 1 to 2 million dollars per aircraft. Think about it. Even if it is double that, it is a proposition almost impossible to ignore.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Pal, the nature of warfare has changed and the role of armed forces, particularly ground forces, has reduced significantly in comparison. The next generation of warfare is amalgam of cyber warfare, electronic warfare, psychological warfare and information warfare. The element of "kinetic action" has been undermined due to introduction of less lethal yet more effective and flexible forms of power projection. Therefore, I don't see the "future warfare" as an "modernized" form of transitional warfare. Its the case with Modern World and will be the case of South Asia too in near future.

True, but this is just a phase of war.

No matter how many infantry we will add up, we will remain in disadvantage as we are smaller in size and cannot win against India in attrition. At the same time, we don't have economic means to raise sufficient support assets to back up our existing massive ground forces. Thus a compromise is bound to exists, i.e. large size forces with little mechanical support. However, if we reduce our size, and increase the mechanization and quality of equipment, then its possible to outclass Indian armed forces by utilizing the idea of mass fire power instead of mass manpower.

There is method to this madness. There is math and matrix for doctrines and capabilities. PA is already operating on the lower end. Reducing number is a suicide, increasing quality and quantity of equipment is a requirement. WoT was an eye opener for many General, in term of modern training, tactics and equipment for an average soldier.

Compare US and Indian army for example, their combat manpower size is roughly same but US army is far far superior than Indian army that's because its relying on technological means instead of manpower to achieve its power projection objectives.

During surge in Iraq and Afghanistan. US Army and Marine corps repeatedly increased size in phases and for past few years, they are slowly shedding troops by tightening re-enlistment criteria. . Right now US is operation on it's peacetime numbers. US do not have an Enemy of million soldier on it border.

For war that will probably never happen?

War will happen the day you will reduce your number and capability. It's your deterrence that is keeping the war from not happening.

Good analysis, just look at the UK's defence cuts, the warfare has changed dramatically in the last 10-20 years. Gone are the days where you had defined battle lines and enemies. You need highly trained specialised soldiers. In this day and age you can occupy a country without firing a single shot thanks to social media and cyber technologies.

That's the future but in the sub-continent there will be a greater emphasis on numbers in the armed forces due to the population level and threat level. Truly dominated by infantry.

Totally different geopolitical situation and ground realities. Place UK in Pakistan's neighbourhood, and you guys most probably surrender just looking the odds and enemy numerical advantage. You can destroy a country (from distance) but can never conquer a country without warfight on the ground. Afghanistan is the modern day example. Neither Navy, nor Air Force. No Cyber or Space force will be able to win a war for you. You need boots on the ground. That's where you need number, lot of them. Depending upon size of the country, size and numbers of population center and so on.

 

[Armchair]

True, but this is just a phase of war.


There is method to this madness. There is math and matrix for doctrines and capabilities. PA is already operating on the lower end. Reducing number is a suicide, increasing quality and quantity of equipment is a requirement. WoT was an eye opener for many General, in term of modern training, tactics and equipment for an average soldier.


During surge in Iraq and Afghanistan. US Army and Marine corps repeatedly increased size in phases and for past few years, they are slowly shedding troops by tightening re-enlistment criteria. . Right now US is operation on it's peacetime numbers. US do not have an Enemy of million soldier on it border.

War will happen the day you will reduce your number and capability. It's your deterrence that is keeping the war from not happening.



Totally different geopolitical situation and ground realities. Place UK in Pakistan's neighbourhood, and you guys most probably surrender just looking the odds and enemy numerical advantage. You can destroy a country (from distance) but can never conquer a country without warfight on the ground. Afghanistan is the modern day example. Neither Navy, nor Air Force. No Cyber or Space force will be able to win a war for you. You need boots on the ground. That's where you need number, lot of them. Depending upon size of the country, size and numbers of population center and so on.

So happy to see members understanding the importance of numbers, whether of boots or of tanks or CAS, or ...

This is what allowed the Soviet Union to destroy 80% of the German army. As Stalin put it "quantity has a quality all its own".

They compromised on quality to build equipment of reasonable quality but with the ability to be produced with mass production.

This ability to produce using mass production requires systems to have minimal of parts and complexity.

So the talent then is in designing systems in such a way that they can be mass produced or mass recruited.

Mass recruitment is possible through conscription / volunteer forces supplementing the professional force (and NOT an all professional army). Pak has an advantage over India in this.

India can never conscript effectively due to internal strife and loss of internal unity. Pak can because the average Pakistani is fiercely loyal, brave and willing to fight India.

A simple tank / apc is possible, taking the concept of the T-34 tank and reinventing it in the contemporary setting.

Being able to manufacture tanks rapidly allows one to hold less reserves as production can be started at any point and numbers made up. Why Russia won and Germany didn't.

CAS aircraft can also be mass produced - as the British Hurricane was. The British used metal from cooking utensils to build these planes during the supposed "Battle of Britain". A simple piston engined aircraft that has armour, flies in, drops PGMs, gets out. I will never understand why so many people don't understand the power and effectiveness of air power.

Imagine this. If you had a 1000 CAS aircraft, what would happen to India? Technology exists to allow this to happen. A simple cast aluminum 2-stroke engine and a pulsejet combo allows you to make aircraft (and drones) cheap and easy to manufacture. If one could make drones for 10,000 USD and CAS aircraft for 1 million USD, 100% inhouse, and churn out such weapons in the 1000s if necessary, all calculations and projections change.

When you combine a larger conscript supported army with such tech, you can essentially become a world power, with the caveat of air defence and nuclear weapons (Both of which Pak has).

Think about it.

The world cannot defeat Taliban. What is being envisioned here is something 1000x scarier than the Taliban. Something that can win world wars.

 

[MastanKhan]

So happy to see members understanding the importance of numbers, whether of boots or of tanks or CAS, or ...

This is what allowed the Soviet Union to destroy 80% of the German army. As Stalin put it "quantity has a quality all its own".

They compromised on quality to build equipment of reasonable quality but with the ability to be produced with mass production.

This ability to produce using mass production requires systems to have minimal of parts and complexity.

So the talent then is in designing systems in such a way that they can be mass produced or mass recruited.

Mass recruitment is possible through conscription / volunteer forces supplementing the professional force (and NOT an all professional army). Pak has an advantage over India in this.

India can never conscript effectively due to internal strife and loss of internal unity. Pak can because the average Pakistani is fiercely loyal, brave and willing to fight India.

A simple tank / apc is possible, taking the concept of the T-34 tank and reinventing it in the contemporary setting.

Being able to manufacture tanks rapidly allows one to hold less reserves as production can be started at any point and numbers made up. Why Russia won and Germany didn't.

CAS aircraft can also be mass produced - as the British Hurricane was. The British used metal from cooking utensils to build these planes during the supposed "Battle of Britain". A simple piston engined aircraft that has armour, flies in, drops PGMs, gets out. I will never understand why so many people don't understand the power and effectiveness of air power.

Imagine this. If you had a 1000 CAS aircraft, what would happen to India? Technology exists to allow this to happen. A simple cast aluminum 2-stroke engine and a pulsejet combo allows you to make aircraft (and drones) cheap and easy to manufacture. If one could make drones for 10,000 USD and CAS aircraft for 1 million USD, 100% inhouse, and churn out such weapons in the 1000s if necessary, all calculations and projections change.

When you combine a larger conscript supported army with such tech, you can essentially become a world power, with the caveat of air defence and nuclear weapons (Both of which Pak has).

Think about it.

The world cannot defeat Taliban. What is being envisioned here is something 1000x scarier than the Taliban. Something that can win world wars.

Hi,

Well---it is a NO---. Weapons at that time were of similar quality and range except for the german tanks---.

Modern technology has changed the face of warfare---you avoid the merge and destroy the enemy from a distance---.

Whomsoever has more powerful weapons that can shoot correct and true from a distance has the advantage---.

 

[Old School]

The actual answer to address this problem is to establish a 'Joint Fire Support command and control' structure. It will deal with joint fire support planning, execution and co-ordination with the component commanders from Army, Navy, Air Force and the intelligence directorates. This is not an easy task as it requires massive reorganization of the C2 and significant budgetary allocations.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

Well---it is a NO---. Weapons at that time were of similar quality and range except for the german tanks---.

Modern technology has changed the face of warfare---you avoid the merge and destroy the enemy from a distance---.

Whomsoever has more powerful weapons that can shoot correct and true from a distance has the advantage---.

To get any weapon to a position to fire that smart weapon requires good old platforms that have changed incrementally since WW2, with a few exceptions such as UAVs, even then, these UAVs are doing was Stuck Dive bombers used to.

War has not changed completely, it still follows the basic rules it has. Just as cars have not. The day you teleport yourself or fly around in quadcopters, then you can claim all this.

If anything, war today has shown that age old weapons such as the AK-47, SKS, 0.5 cal, mortar, RPG-7, etc are so deadly that even with the latest tech, gizmo, satellite the US Empire is unable to beat those that can use these proficiently.