Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[Inception-06]

 

[Zulfiqar]

Forget Ah-1z.

Let's go for this (yes it is a wish with no basis in reality as it is not yet in production and not in same weight class probably as well. Just throwing it out about future of attack recon helicopters a decade later).

Latest program of Bell.

http://news.bellflight.com/en-US/18...m=social&utm_campaign=FARA&utm_source=twitter

 

[python-000]

Forget Ah-1z.

Let's go for this (yes it is a wish with no basis in reality as it is not yet in production and not in same weight class probably as well. Just throwing it out about future of attack recon helicopters a decade later).

Latest program of Bell.

View attachment 582169

http://news.bellflight.com/en-US/18...m=social&utm_campaign=FARA&utm_source=twitter

China can convert its Z-10 series into this with limited changes...

 

[fatman17]

A recent image (September 2018) indicated an export variant (Z-10ME) is being developed possibly with better electronics (including MAWS, new IFF), a bigger ammunition magazine in the nose, redesigned engine air intakes with particle separating mesh and more powerful engines (WZ-9G?). The latest video (September 2018) suggested that some Z-10s and Z-10Hs (S/N LH9621xx, 9531xx, 9631xx, 9511xx) have been further upgraded. It features external armor plates outside the forward and back cockpits as well as the engine compartment to provide a better protection against small AAA fire. MAWS sensors were installed on both sides of the nose. The gunner also wears the new HMD.

- Last Updated 10/12/19

Will the Z10ME make a comeback with the Pakistan Army Aviation?
With the supply of the American Super Cobra suspended indefinitely by the Trump Administration and the resolution of the NOC for the Turkish T129 power plant by the US now nearly a impossibility as US -Turkey relationship getting worse by the day, it now seems that Pakistan may not have any other choice, in the near term to once again reevaluate the performance of the new and improved Z10ME to complement the existing fleet of 35 odd AH1F Cobra attack helicopters in service with the air arm since 1984, some 35 years.

 

[fatman17]

A recent image (September 2018) indicated an export variant (Z-10ME) is being developed possibly with better electronics (including MAWS, new IFF), a bigger ammunition magazine in the nose, redesigned engine air intakes with particle separating mesh and more powerful engines (WZ-9G?). The latest video (September 2018) suggested that some Z-10s and Z-10Hs (S/N LH9621xx, 9531xx, 9631xx, 9511xx) have been further upgraded. It features external armor plates outside the forward and back cockpits as well as the engine compartment to provide a better protection against small AAA fire. MAWS sensors were installed on both sides of the nose. The gunner also wears the new HMD.

- Last Updated 10/12/19

Will the Z10ME make a comeback with the Pakistan Army Aviation?
With the supply of the American Super Cobra suspended indefinitely by the Trump Administration and the resolution of the NOC for the Turkish T129 power plant by the US now nearly a impossibility as US -Turkey relationship getting worse by the day, it now seems that Pakistan may not have any other choice, in the near term to once again reevaluate the performance of the new and improved Z10ME to complement the existing fleet of 35 odd AH1F Cobra attack helicopters in service with the air arm since 1984, some 35 years.

 

[Quwa]

IMO we should upgrade the existing Cobras and try a SLEP to the airframes where possible. But aside from that, co-develop and manufacture a 10 ton attack helicopter like the Rooivalk Mk2, ATAK 2 or the next gen Chinese one. Procure those bigger ones in numbers, better suited for CAS in the Eastern theatre. The T129 and Z-10ME are more or less LCH class. But one in between option is get TAI to develop a 7-8 ton ATAK (more rugged) on the TEI engine, and then license build 100+ of those in Pakistan

 

[python-000]

IMO we should upgrade the existing Cobras and try a SLEP to the airframes where possible. But aside from that, co-develop and manufacture a 10 ton attack helicopter like the Rooivalk Mk2, ATAK 2 or the next gen Chinese one. Procure those bigger ones in numbers, better suited for CAS in the Eastern theatre. The T129 and Z-10ME are more or less LCH class. But one in between option is get TAI to develop a 7-8 ton ATAK (more rugged) on the TEI engine, and then license build 100+ of those in Pakistan

you are absolutely right but point is the what our ARMY thinking about this issue the army also evaluated Mi-28 in Russia some years ago but come is 0/0...

 

[nomi007]

IMO we should upgrade the existing Cobras and try a SLEP to the airframes where possible. But aside from that, co-develop and manufacture a 10 ton attack helicopter like the Rooivalk Mk2, ATAK 2 or the next gen Chinese one. Procure those bigger ones in numbers, better suited for CAS in the Eastern theatre. The T129 and Z-10ME are more or less LCH class. But one in between option is get TAI to develop a 7-8 ton ATAK (more rugged) on the TEI engine, and then license build 100+ of those in Pakistan

what are alternative engines for TAI-129 helo?

 

[Affanakad0t.]

what are alternative engines for TAI-129 helo?

Their locally manufactured engine

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Pakistani Army Aviation have light category fully cover , PAA have Airbus H125/H125m for light transport and light attack heli , this will also mean PAA will soon retire or reassign Bell 206B (light heli) to Para-Forces ..
In light to medium (medium light) category PAA have BELL-412EP and I am sure PAA will go for more of them and in same category PAA bought AW-139 my take on this purchase PAA will going to buy them in numbers not only for SAR but for general purpose utility heli (Just like Mi-17 and Puma combo) … Bell-412 and AW-139 best combo for medium-light category ..
Now for heavy medium PAA have Mi17 (this heli not going anywhere , we may see more of them) and PUMA ,, PAA may replace PUMA with Eurocopter EC725 Caracal, now called Airbus Helicopters H225M (more logical because we already have airbus helis) ..
If we look at heavy category , I see Mil Mi-38 making into PAA in 10+ years , maybe 10 to 15 helis but they will surly come …..
In attack heli category there is A mass ,,,,,,,,, T-129 stope (because of US) , Super Cobra again stopped by US , Z-10 not ready …….. Time will tell what PAA will do in this category ..

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

you are absolutely right but point is the what our ARMY thinking about this issue the army also evaluated Mi-28 in Russia some years ago but come is 0/0...

The only heavyweight attack helicopter semi-available to us is the Rooivalk. However, we'd need to co-fund its upgrade (Rooivalk Mk2), which will probably mean securing and integrating a new engine, transmission, avionics, and weapons. However, Denel said that whoever helps fund it, will get to manufacture the helicopter (and I think take over most of the production work). So, it's a win-win, assuming you can take the risk.

That said, if it were me, I'd actually go for it. Of course, that'll mean finding a SLEP for our existing Cobras, but it's time to re-apply the PAF's thinking along the whole military.

Our leadership isn't going to pick fights, and where it can, it'll try avoiding a fight as much as possible.

Whatever one may think of this fact, at least from the standpoint of defence development, it buys us time. And the good thing about the Rooivalk Mk2, it's halfway there since Denel is re-using the same airframe.

Anyways, the reason why Denel had trouble exporting the Rooivalk in the past was because Airbus DS was trying to push its Tiger platform. That is not an issue today as Airbus DS has taken its foot off the Tiger program, and just as importantly, Pakistan is an Airbus DS customer via the H125/H125m program. Airbus also said it'll support the new Rooivalk program, so some kind of licensing fee element is involved. We can deal.

Alternatively, we can leverage some strings at Leonardo (having bought their AW139 and, potentially, another type for the PN) to get the transmission and other critical parts.

Besides that, the question of the engine is interesting. We can stick to the existing one (Malika), or talk to them re: the new Aneto-series. We can also take a two-phase approach, e.g., a Block 1 with the Malika, and then a Block 2 with the Aneto (and other improvements).

Imagine roadmapping a 120~180 aircraft requirement over 20 years and, in turn, manufacturing them gradually for local and export (we can market this solution to Brazil, Ukraine, etc).

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Why not make a family of helos and stop sending forex to foreign countries??
Like bell has done, Leonardo and Mil in russia has done

The only heavyweight attack helicopter semi-available to us is the Rooivalk. However, we'd need to co-fund its upgrade (Rooivalk Mk2), which will probably mean securing and integrating a new engine, transmission, avionics, and weapons. However, Denel said that whoever helps fund it, will get to manufacture the helicopter (and I think take over most of the production work). So, it's a win-win, assuming you can take the risk.

That said, if it were me, I'd actually go for it. Of course, that'll mean finding a SLEP for our existing Cobras, but it's time to re-apply the PAF's thinking along the whole military.

Our leadership isn't going to pick fights, and where it can, it'll try avoiding a fight as much as possible.

Whatever one may think of this fact, at least from the standpoint of defence development, it buys us time. And the good thing about the Rooivalk Mk2, it's halfway there since Denel is re-using the same airframe.

Anyways, the reason why Denel had trouble exporting the Rooivalk in the past was because Airbus DS was trying to push its Tiger platform. That is not an issue today as Airbus DS has taken its foot off the Tiger program, and just as importantly, Pakistan is an Airbus DS customer via the H125/H125m program. Airbus also said it'll support the new Rooivalk program, so some kind of licensing fee element is involved. We can deal.

Alternatively, we can leverage some strings at Leonardo (having bought their AW139 and, potentially, another type for the PN) to get the transmission and other critical parts.

Besides that, the question of the engine is interesting. We can stick to the existing one (Malika), or talk to them re: the new Aneto-series. We can also take a two-phase approach, e.g., a Block 1 with the Malika, and then a Block 2 with the Aneto (and other improvements).

Imagine roadmapping a 120~180 aircraft requirement over 20 years and, in turn, manufacturing them gradually for local and export (we can market this solution to Brazil, Ukraine, etc).

 

[Haris Ali2140]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1186289334921641986

https://twitter.com/x/status/1186317407314497536

@Quwa @GriffinsRule @Signalian your input in this discussion!

 

[GriffinsRule]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1186289334921641986

https://twitter.com/x/status/1186317407314497536

@Quwa @GriffinsRule @Signalian your input in this discussion!

Both are capable helicopters but AW139 has twice the power, speed, range, endurance and payload advantage. Its basically a better helicopter in every regard at a slight higher cost.
In service, PA operates the basic 412EP version, and a few examples have been upgraded with a FLIR turret and can be fitted with a winch. However, they don't have a glass cockpit and if the rescue was to be done behind enemy lines, the speed and range advantage of the AW139 as well its defensive suite (PAF's version) would give it an edge. Both can be have machine guns mounted as well, so its a draw there.
In PAA, the AW139s are not as well equipped and are clearly more for VIP transport it seems then the PAF versions, which are suitably equipped for CSAR.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

AW139 has a very good reputation in naval sar and csar. It is widely used for rescue from freighters and oil tankers. In a documentary they said it has some special hovering capabilities that's why.