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PAK FA vs F22 Raptor : A Detailed Analasis

A question was asked about the possibility of a moving-target-indicator (MTI) radar to detect F-117 class bodies. The answer is 'Yes' but with serious caveats.

First...There is a misleading argument bandied about that goes: Since the F-22 has the RCS of a bird and no bird flies at several hundreds km/h, the US wasted a lot of money for nothing.

The argument is flawed in the fact that all radar systems have what is called the 'clutter rejection threshold', meaning stuff that are detected but whose electrical characteristics are known and filtered out. These stuff include cosmic background radiation, music radio, or TV signals. The classical concave dish just make their detection directional. All radars detect these things and installed filters raises that 'clutter rejection threshold'. Birds are usually filtered out so even if the 'bird' flies at Mach 10, it will be filtered out from the start.

Which lead up to the next point...

radar_pulse_example.jpg


The above is an illustration of a typical radar signal.

There are four main very important characteristics:

- Amplitude
- Freq
- Pulse duration (or width)
- Pulse Repetition Interval

A series of pulses interrupted is called a 'pulse train'. We can change the above four characteristics from train to train but that is for another discussion.

From these four items we receive vital target 'resolutions' such as speed, altitude, heading, Doppler, and aspect angle. The last meaning how is the target facing us.

For an MTI radar, it is the Doppler component that is of interest. What an MTI radar does is to focus its data processing only on the Doppler shifts of a moving target. It does not care of heading, altitude, or aspect angle...

Doppler radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This variation of frequency also depends on the direction the wave source is moving with respect to the observer; it is maximum when the source is moving directly toward or away from the observer, and diminishes with increasing angle between the direction of motion and the direction of the waves, until when the source is moving at right angles to the observer, there is no shift.
The highlighted is a serious drawback when a radar system is purposely designed to process only the Doppler component of a moving body.

So for an MTI radar to be used against an F-117 class body, we would have to lower that 'clutter rejection threshold' to detect bodies smaller than birds then process EVERY SINGLE Doppler components of EVERY SINGLE moving bodies within the beam. Even with data processing of only one component out of many, the processing demand of so many objects is a serious technical hurdle. We can reduce this burden by narrowing the beam but this would increase coverage time over any given airspace volume. Then if some birds or a flight of F-35s just happened to be across our radar view instead of approaching or receding, the MTI system would not process them at all.

For the defender, there is another serious tactical disadvantage when facing a radar low observable adversary...

b-52_b-2_1433-719.jpg


The B-52's RCS and its Doppler component will dominate the search volume and will mask the far smaller B-2's RCS and its Doppler component. Not completely but just enough to make an effective distraction and draw vital airborne resources to investigate. What if a flight of real birds take flight? The MTI radar could process different birds at different locations to be the one that flies at several hundreds km/h. More vital resources to investigate real birds instead of the one that matter.

So is an MTI radar an effective detector of an F-117 class body? Only if the conditions are 'just right'. But a knowledgeable adversary will do his best to create as 'wrong' the battlefield conditions as possible to maximize his technical advantage.
 
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RCS varies with wavelength.

Rayleigh scattering regios is region where wavelength is larger than shaping features of target or target itself. In that region, only thing that matters for RCS is actual physical size of target itself.
Resonance occurs where shaping features are comparable in wavelength to radar, resulting in induced electrical charges over the skin of target, vastly increasing RCS.

VHF radars have wavelengths of 1-3 meters; as such, key shapings of F22 (stabilizers and some other parts of airframe) fall into one or another of two regions. Also, its stealth coating is ineffective against long-wavelength radars for reasons of physics.
 
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RCS varies with wavelength.

Rayleigh scattering regios is region where wavelength is larger than shaping features of target or target itself. In that region, only thing that matters for RCS is actual physical size of target itself.
Resonance occurs where shaping features are comparable in wavelength to radar, resulting in induced electrical charges over the skin of target, vastly increasing RCS.

VHF radars have wavelengths of 1-3 meters; as such, key shapings of F22 (stabilizers and some other parts of airframe) fall into one or another of two regions. Also, its stealth coating is ineffective against long-wavelength radars for reasons of physics.
And do you really think what you just said is anything new to us here? No.

But there is a catch in using meters long wavelengths...Antenna size. Now see if you can figure out why.
 
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You think I don't know that? Fighters have IRST and RWR; radars are, in combat, primarly used by ground defences, where antenna size is not as big of a problem.
 
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Well, there is an obvious disadvantage for the F-22 Raptor: older technology. remember what year the Raptor is first made? still around 1990s. compared to the PAK FA: just this decade. but i have only 1 wish the america would do: make the YF-23 a reality. i wish they would just upgrade it (to be able to go against the PAK FA and Raptor) and update it to the technology they currently have. And that wouldn't be bad at all (i think). besides, the YF-23 is MORE STEALTH and FASTER than the F-22, right? ok, end of my opinion.
 
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Well, there is an obvious disadvantage for the F-22 Raptor: older technology. remember what year the Raptor is first made? still around 1990s. compared to the PAK FA: just this decade. but i have only 1 wish the america would do: make the YF-23 a reality. i wish they would just upgrade it (to be able to go against the PAK FA and Raptor) and update it to the technology they currently have. And that wouldn't be bad at all (i think). besides, the YF-23 is MORE STEALTH and FASTER than the F-22, right? ok, end of my opinion.

They did:
USAF debates major upgrade for F-22 Raptors
USAF fields first upgraded F-22 Raptors

The PAK FA is still in development stages anyways.
 
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Well, there is an obvious disadvantage for the F-22 Raptor: older technology. remember what year the Raptor is first made? still around 1990s. compared to the PAK FA: just this decade. but i have only 1 wish the america would do: make the YF-23 a reality. i wish they would just upgrade it (to be able to go against the PAK FA and Raptor) and update it to the technology they currently have. And that wouldn't be bad at all (i think). besides, the YF-23 is MORE STEALTH and FASTER than the F-22, right? ok, end of my opinion.

F22 is older technology? I got to save that. Geez buddy, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. YF23...sure...
 
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US is developing stealth aircrafts from long time be it F-117, B-2 or something like SR-71. So it is foolish to assume that F-22 will be having old technology in it. I can safely say that after the induction of PAK-FA and J-20, F-22 will still be superior.
 
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While the rest of the world is getting their band together and trying to roll out a Tactical 5th Gen (or 4th Gen if yo uare in China) fighter that can deal with the US F-22A fighter, the USAF is getting their hand on the sixth- generation (6th Gen) fighter

According to a publication from fbo.gov (For those of you who don't know FBO is the place where US government look for Contractor when they need anything developed.) The sixth Generation fighter should have retained the 5th Generation technilogy but more emphasis on reach, persistence, survivability, net-centricity, situational awareness, human-system integration(So no unmanned fighter for sci-fi fan), and weapons effects. With the projection service period from 2030-2050.

Currently all tender are made confidential but source in the Air Force and Aviation Technology company reviewed chance of a Self-Healing frame were made to adapt to the 6th generation fighters

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...0c9c983f85e7952c2adc426b189&tab=core&_cview=1

The question is, while the Russian and Chinese put their head together and get out a 5th generation, they will e no way as good as current F-22 in the first place, remember how the F-22 fail when they roll the out in 1998, there is a period of 2-3 year to find the problem on 5th gen and fix it. By then The American should have moved on to 6th Gen already.......
 
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Well, I wont go by looks but the Amount of Money being poured in the Raptor Programme and Given that Western Fighters do seem to be better than Russian or Chinese.

I have always wondered if there is some credible evidence to support that argument !
 
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First lets roll out PAK FA only then we can compare with F-22 and till then F-22 will be king of Air.
 
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Well, I wont go by looks but the Amount of Money being poured in the Raptor Programme and Given that Western Fighters do seem to be better than Russian or Chinese.. F22 Raptor is Way advanced than any Fighter at least , NOW.
I have always wondered if there is some credible evidence to support that argument !
The best credible evidence -- after a war.
 
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I have always wondered if there is some credible evidence to support that argument !

They Have Had the Best Fighters .. F14s F15s and Your Own F16s
They Have "The Only" Operational Stealth Fighters/Bombers...

You Stilkl Need Evidence ?
 
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