Pak Army isn't capable of fighting and Bajwa's Kashmir deal with India

[SaadH]

Lets not dwell into that. There are multiple examples, many later rising to General officer ranks who continued fighting even after the ceasefire.

Only because they didn't know ceasefire/surrender had already taken place. Some escaped but there was no case of anyone fighting to the last bullet.

 

[SaadH]

You haven't "debunked" anything.



You do realize that your water supply runs through IOK, right? We have a treaty but they've been violating it for years. You think the Indians care about Tibet b/c they love the ppl? No, it's because Indian waters originate from there.

Also, Hindutvadis don't just claim IOK. They want ALL of Kashmir & GB. That's what peaceniks like you don't get. The moment you make a deal on IOK they're then going to demand more & more.

Lastly, religiocultural ties & our own ideology means that we can't abandon them.



No, you're not going to be declared a state sponsor of terrorism or be put on any list. There's a difference b/w supporting non-state insurgents & a GOV-IN-EXILE. See the Syria model. The lack of a referendum would justify supporting it. It's an internationally recognized right. Plus, as I said you'll be getting international support for it as well via OIC conferences, etc. Also, see point 7. You're not doing all these things in isolation.

If we weren't declared one when the US would accuse us daily of supporting Taliban, what makes you think they'll do it now? The disparity b/w Pak & India has never been higher & yet we've at most been put on FATF. Let's be real here, India isn't that important & the Chinese wouldn't allow it anyway.
The FATF also can't just put us back on the list w/o a vote & considering we already meet their requirements AND we're not supporting non-state insurgent groups, it would be very difficult. FYI, being put on the FATF is not the reason for our economic problems. FATF is not a sanctions regime. It's the misgovernance, corruption & lack of good economic policy that has got us to where we are now.

US financial hegemony is collapsing anyway. More & more countries are now trying to bypass the US financial system. Already, share of dollar reserves is only about 50%. Neither sanctions nor FATF will mean much in the near future (Ironically, it was sanctions & their threat that kickstarted our defence industry).

The only reason there's a disparity in diplomacy is b/c of economy. If the generals stick to their own jobs & let PTI handle economy the disparity would diminish.

Regarding Kashmiris, this isn't 1965. They have had an indigenous armed rebellion for 3 decades now.



Read the above points for what exactly. You don't have to outmatch Indian influence. However, India is the biggest security threat to Bangladesh. There will always be friendly elements that will be willing to help us.



The point is self-explanatory. Joint-ops in case of war.



Why would this piss of the Saudis if they're being invited to it? They & the GCC would most likely have even more influence than they have now.



Whatever works. A BMD will become more viable as technology becomes more advanced.



The purpose of IW is to uproot those "roots". You're obviously going to be working on your own soft power as well.



Maybe, maybe not. If you produce something they want then their business class wouldn't care. Hence, why their trade with China continues to increase. Not a huge deal if they don't. We've barely even tapped the rest of the world market so let's worry about that.

At the end of the day, India is going to bring war to your doorstep. They're not going to stop at IOK. Pakistanis need to come out of this delusion that we can have peace with India. So you need to decide whether it's on your terms or theirs. Making excuses without trying anything isn't a strategy.

Don't be so harsh on this poster, he's a true reflection of the obsequious mentality of the enslaved mindset of our people going back many millenia. Instead of improving their lot by being competitive on economic front by making short term sacrifices and enduring hardships, they just want to be left alone to do low level light tasks like tilling the fields for yet another invader. After serving their many a foreign overlords they are eager to be pressed into service for their newest hindutva overlords.

 

[Sayfullah]

Some Open source info to what you are alluding to, about Defective tank oil From Ukraine causing breakdown of Al-Khalid and T-80UD tanks.

Pakistan Army Victim to Faulty Ukrainian Oils - Lubes'N'Greases

Allegedly defective oil produced in Ukraine was blamed for the failure of 30 Pakistan Army tanks last month after similar cases were reported in Ukraine.

www.lubesngreases.com

How is Pakistan’s military equipment affected by the Russian invasion?

Despite having acquired key defense equipment from Ukraine since the 1990s, Russia’s invasion of the country will not cause support issues for Pakistan, as this weaponry was already being phased out, an industry source has told Defense News.

www.defensenews.com

Lot of amateur comments here. We need to analyse dispassionately that Pakistan in 2015-2020 couldn't have sustained an all out conventional war with the equipment they have at that time. Lot of big item tickets were in pipeline or getting upgraded all across army, airforce and navy.

Let's begin with army. No HQ-9, no new pieces of artillery, No Army avaition or attack helicopters. High intenisty Zarb e azb ended around 2018. Artillery battles at LOC and WoT are putting a hugh strain on existing artillery equipment. No New assault rifles. No Army drones for pinpoint attacks like Azerbaijan did on Armenian forces. Tanks are breaking down due to faulty lube oil from Ukraine

NAVY: Our submarines were under upgradation. We only had 4 F-22P back in 2018-2019 and you wanted navy to fight a war with Indian navy with 4 F-22P and 2 old Submarines?

Airforce was in a better shape. But what we had was, we could only sustain a 1 week campaign with them

Bajwa was right, Pakistan army back then was not in shape to fight a war of more than 1 week with Indian Army. Why people are getting offended?

So if india launched a war in 2015-2020 period you would have surrendered cuz army isn’t capable to fight india?
Pakistan will NEVER be able to match india conventionally. Pakistan will NEVER be “capable” of fighting india in a fair conventional war.
Does that mean Pakistan should let india bully it and illegally annex Kashmir? No!
If army can’t fight conventionally it just improvise. That’s what army’s are suppose to do. There’s always going to be a conventional imbalance between the two. Bajwa’s job was to identify ways to even out the battlefield both for a non nuclear and nuclear war. Army chiefs job isn’t bickering about not being able to fight wars. What’s the point of all the budget going to army when its own army chief says it can’t fight india? We have nukes, why do we need an army? Why not disband it if we aren’t capable of fighting india.
Despite the conventional imbalance Pakistan can be at the advantage in Kashmir and would have been at the advantage in Kashmir if it wasn’t for the bipolar generals and their policies. Why the harsh crackdowns by establishment on Kashmiri mujahideen when they give Pakistan the advantage in Kashmir and India isn’t shying away from hurting us through proxies? And no, it’s not just a mere 400 mujahideen that will give us an upper hand, rather the tens of thousands of mujahideen pak army is preventing from entering Kashmir and ISI trying to put every Kashmiri org on a leash. Look at Iran they are fighting whole Middle East, usa and Israel but they have the upper hand. What’s the role of ISI? Maybe tell ISI to stop filming bedroom videos and actually do what an intel agency is suppose to do.
Do you think a bjp/rss india will ever be peaceful to Pakistan? No! Maybe in our life they won’t have the guts to start a war but they definitely will in our kids time. Then your kids will curse you for your shortsightedness and cowardice. The gap between Pakistan and india will grow larger as time goes. This is the issue with Pakistani y’all only think to survive today not about the future. A hindutva india will always be our enemy and a threat to us no matter how much you bend over for them.
Pakistan’s defensive mentality will bring it to its end. Never has a smaller country ever won against a much larger enemy by staying on the defensive. India has its networks expanded in every province of Pakistan and they’re already breaking away AJK and GB from Pakistan as we speak with various methods. Y’all will only wake up when another 1971 happens. Indians have successfully got you distracted with their proxies in the western front while they chip away Pakistani territory inch by inch with their propaganda and traitors inside Pakistan.
Where is Bajwa now? In UAE working with Indian companies and his son hanging out with dovals son. You expect a shameless man without honour who allows his son to set next to Dovals son, to have led Pakistan in a war with india? Indians fill his pockets rn in dubai.

Keep cheering your selves on fighting rag tag proxies while the real enemy chips away Pakistani territory inch by inch.

 

[SaadH]

Since Kargil Conflict, Pakistanis in the West have been saying that Kashmir is a lost cause. Regardless of Nawaz's politics, the Army also backed down from outside threats. Once you are in that position, you've lost.

Actually Army was the one that made that strategic retreat on Kashmir under Mushy circa Sept. 12th 2001. Whatever the strategic calculus was at that time, overtime it has proven to be one of disaster, a huge once in a century concession and no compensation/offset to show for, unless of course you count the burgeoning real estate empire and overseas investments of our generals, bureaucrats and politicians.

 

[Sayfullah]

Bjp/rss in india will ensure Muslims will be enemies with the hindutva regime in india. This includes the Muslims of Pakistan. Even Bangladesh isn’t spared.
This means there will always be the need for a group to fight these hindutva terrorists in india.
Naturally people turn their eyes to Pakistan. If Pakistan fails then it will fall with india. If Pakistan fails there will be a gap and some other group will fill it.
Pakistan will be the first casualty in all this if another group fills the gap.

 

[Tornado23]

The West sided with Pakistan and continues to support it over India. One can see this by looking at the inventories of the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in 1971. Around 60-70% of the IAF's imported jets were of Russian origin, while the PAF's jets were top-of-the-line American jets. The West created Pakistan and nurtured it to be used against India, the Soviet Union, Iran, and sometimes even China. Few people know that China did not help Pakistan in 1971 because Pakistan allowed the USA to conduct espionage on China using its territory in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh).

The reason why India has always defeated Pakistan is due to the sheer will and tenacity of the Indian state. Contrary to popular opinion, India is actually a very hard state when it comes to territorial matters. Since 1947, whenever the borders have changed in South Asia, India has always expanded its territory while Pakistan has shrunk.

Both Pakistan and India used western equipment.

Pakistan used US made F86 sabres, F104 starfighters, B57, M48 and M47 Pattons, M24 Chaffee, different small arms and AT weaponry and so on.

India literally used the British Hawker Hunter F1, EEC Canberra, Folland Gnat, Centurion mk7, Vijayanta which is a licensed Vickers mk7 MBT, and an array of small arms/AT weapons. Your point is dumb.

As for China....what the hell are you talking about? Pakistan was using Chinese J6 Farmers against the IAF which shot down multiple IAF aircraft and knocked some Indian tanks. Alongside the Type59 MBT which was in use as well.

You gained a victory in EP because you massively outnumbered and outgunned Pakistan. On the western front however, your gain was overshadowed by Pakistans gain against you. Other than that it just went back to pre war times.

 

[Imran Khan]

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Try googling around.

Regarding your remark of PAF top of the line US fighters....
F86 Sabre made it's first flight in 1947 while Mig 21 was operationalized in 1959. Shows who was having top of the line fighters.

Instead of few, MANY People, of whom you are not included of course, know that China helped us greatly after 1965 war. Giving equipment of almost 5 whole infantry divisions, 750 type 59 tanks before 1971, 950 tanks after 1971, anti aircraft guns for almost two whole air defence divisions...

Also, try qualifying your statement about india defeating Pakistan.... If yes, why do we all see Pakistan still on the face of world map, that too as a nuclear power.... Or leaving Pakistan intact, not taking it over and allowing it to become a nuclear power and a constant thorn in your side was all part of your magnificent strategic plan.


Regarding Pakistan helping US for espionage against China.... Well it's laughable. Try Google for Nanda Devi, and it's associated CIA program... And you'll come to know how India helped US for espionage against China.

Pakistan was wiped off the map of the world in 1971 alone India has proven that a country with strong political will can change neighbours.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Both Pakistan and India used western equipment.

Pakistan used US made F86 sabres, F104 starfighters, B57, M48 and M47 Pattons, M24 Chaffee, different small arms and AT weaponry and so on.

India literally used the British Hawker Hunter F1, EEC Canberra, Folland Gnat, Centurion mk7, Vijayanta which is a licensed Vickers mk7 MBT, and an array of small arms/AT weapons. Your point is dumb.

As for China....what the hell are you talking about? Pakistan was using Chinese J6 Farmers against the IAF which shot down multiple IAF aircraft and knocked some Indian tanks. Alongside the Type59 MBT which was in use as well.

You gained a victory in EP because you massively outnumbered and outgunned Pakistan. On the western front however, your gain was overshadowed by Pakistans gain against you. Other than that it just went back to pre war times.

In 1971, India had access to some British and French weapons, but not American ones. Pakistan, on the other hand, extensively used American weapons during the conflict. India relied heavily on Russian weapons. Contrary to your belief that Pakistan was heavily outnumbered and outgunned in East Pakistan, around 90,000 armed Pakistani soldiers surrendered to about 30,000 Indian soldiers.

 

[Tornado23]

In 1971, India had access to some British and French weapons, but not American ones. Pakistan, on the other hand, extensively used American weapons during the conflict. India relied heavily on Russian weapons. Contrary to your belief that Pakistan was heavily outnumbered and outgunned in East Pakistan, around 90,000 armed Pakistani soldiers surrendered to about 30,000 Indian soldiers.

The US weaponry Pakistan had access to was dated. As Panzerkiel said, F86 sabres from the late 40s, F104 from the 50s, M48 and M47 from the early 50s, and ex ww2 ships. On top of that, Pakistan was under an arms embargo from the US. So it couldn't source more US weapons.

Also did you seriously swap around the numbers for armed forces personnel between Pakistan and India in East Pakistan? Wtf...

 

[Imran Khan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1650913618920194068

 

[Kaniska]

All I am saying is that perhaps Bajwa tried to explain the reality that Pakistan is in no position to go to war against India, especially on account of Kashmir, as such an offensive war would immediately result in imposition of global sanctions on Pakistan including on supply of arms and weapons to Pakistan after which our Jets will eventually be grounded after running out of armaments and spares amongst other West centric equipment.

I would like to extend your discussion to say, the same logic is even applicable to India wrt Pakistan...Even if Indian media blabbers so much of nonsense about Pakistan, India can not win any decisive war against Pakistan for the Kashmir region.
Basically, the Kashmir situation is in a stalemate situation. Unless Pakistan attacks and initiate the war, India would not do anything to disturb the status quo of the current situation.Or the other situation may happen that should be watched closely by India...Pakistan army may initiate war with some kind of fancy promise to your public by reclaiming Kashmir from India to win hearts and popularity amongst your people in the same way Musharaf did for Kargil.

 

[Kaniska]

The day Pakistan cannot go to war with india, is the day india invades Pakistan. That is the ultimate dream and desire of rss, bjp and indian government. If you do not understand this, it means there is something wrong with your IQ and CATs score.

Can you STOP paddling your foolish narratives? Guys, you are all educated and from a higher echelon of Pakistan society...Do you the figment of your imagination believe on this fairy tell stories that India will invade Pakistan or even Pakistan invade India that would question the existence of your nation..
Why do you want to associate the existence of your beautiful nation with some silly and nonexistent reason that outlived its utility for long time?

At max, we may fight kill a few thousand soldiers across the border and make a cease-fire...Neither India has any appetite to increate its Non-Hindu population by adding any territory and same goes for Pakistan too...

If you also know it then why not attack Pakistan and take what you claim?

Because claiming in front of a crazy and illiterate crowd is easy than actually doing things....Indian public nor political parties do not believe that India would really initiate any war to take back Pakistan's part of Kashmir...

 

[Mav3rick]

I would like to extend your discussion to say, the same logic is even applicable to India wrt Pakistan...Even if Indian media blabbers so much of nonsense about Pakistan, India can not win any decisive war against Pakistan for the Kashmir region.
Basically, the Kashmir situation is in a stalemate situation. Unless Pakistan attacks and initiate the war, India would not do anything to disturb the status quo of the current situation.Or the other situation may happen that should be watched closely by India...Pakistan army may initiate war with some kind of fancy promise to your public by reclaiming Kashmir from India to win hearts and popularity amongst your people in the same way Musharaf did for Kargil.

I agree; and I have written as such in many a post. Neither country is in a position to take/retake Kashmir being held by the other so why bother to fight at all? Why not turn the LoC into an IB and start building confidence with CBM's. In 10-15-25 years we could be like the countries in Europe who may not really have a fruity past but co-exist peacefully for their own interests.

 

[AlKardai]

I agree; and I have written as such in many a post. Neither country is in a position to take/retake Kashmir being held by the other so why bother to fight at all? Why not turn the LoC into an IB and start building confidence with CBM's. In 10-15-25 years we could be like the countries in Europe who may not really have a fruity past but co-exist peacefully for their own interests.

But the question is whether we should abandon our ideals for a western model of capitalist-driven peace