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PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

Your country lacks the Financial muscle to buy and operate these fighters

Your military is too frightened to adopt a aggressive attack doctrine.

YOUR MILITARY IS DESIGNED AND GEARED TO FIGHT A DEFENSIVE WAR

You do not have resources or mindset to be anything else

Its not the finances, but sanctions and political constraints, that were prevailing around our forces to get their hands on lucrative gear. Then few blunders that were made when something good was offered. Overall to say there was clearly a lack of vision among those who were to procure. But Sadly ehh, your military now too suffering the same phobia (Rafale deal is one of those perfect examples).

Pakistan's military is designed and geared to stay peaceful until and unless someone try to hamper that peace then they break their shackles and lay sheer wrath. Its like flirting with the bee's nest and they come hard on you. 1965 war & operation against TTP are again examples of courage and aggressiveness. From Air force's perspective 90's era was different and long gone. Though I agree with Mastan's concerns, but I believe things are changing now.

You are talking about resources and mindset of a nation who possess nuclear weapons. The same was said by many of your kind before the nuclear tests were conducted.
 
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So as a fix - My thoughts on non-traditional options (things not relating to a bigger air-force, nuclear missiles, etc) to improve and update Pakistan's defense capabilities and posture.

Pakistan can't match India pound for pound, but it doesn't have to. What Pakistan needs is to make India hurt enough that war would be catastrophic for both sides - ultimately this is achieved through both sides nuclear arsenals, but on conventional terms Pakistan has options too. Let's explore them:

1. Spread critical infrastructure and C4I capabilities over a wide geographic area to prevent a "decapitation strike" from severing the entire command structure instantaneously. Perhaps utilize deep or hardened command structures:

2. Invest greater numbers in mobile counter-air and counter-missile defenses. HQ-9 provides both capabilities in a single platform, but like S-300 it's reported to be less suited for counter-missile duties.

HQ-9 is also resistant to electronic injections and attacks, and with India building up its electronic warfare capabilities, this is a plus for Pakistan.

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3. Speaking of electronic warfare, cyber defenses can be used for offensive and defense purposes too. No only do strong cyber defense protect one's own info, but they can be used to gather intel on a enemy nation - as the US, Russia and China have found out, there aren't any air-tight systems. Invest in cyber warfare to negatively effect Indian battle-planning, intercept their communications, steal sensitive info and if necessary affect civilian infrastructure too:

Few of the world's power grids are capable of withstanding a military-strength cyber attack.
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4. For naval defense Pakistan needs to invest greater assets in counter-submarine warfare - what better way to keep Indian ships honest then by investing in your own submarines?

Considering Pakistan is most concerned with the regional waters around its shores, nuclear submarines don't make too much sense, but SSKs do. Already Pakistan is addressing this concern via the acquisition of several S20 submarines, but a few more - 4 perhaps, would improve Pakistan's operational capabilities by allowing for more ships to be at sea at any one time.

India's counter submarine capabilities are good, but they aren't perfect.

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Negotiate with China for 2-3 Y-8Q - they would be Pakistan's P-8I.

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5. Forget about ICBMs:

Should we opt for the ICBM?

Invest in SLVs (Space Launch Vehicle). Not only does this open up space communications to Pakistan, but it also opens up intelligence gathering capabilities.

Does Pakistan know where India's naval assets are all the time? How about their command structures? Their mobile AA missiles? Tank formations? No it doesn't, but investing in space intel capabilities open this avenue up for Pakistan and allows Pakistan to monitor Indian military movement, communications and infrastructure .

*if anything nuclear deterrence actually increases the potential for conflict, just not directly. Instead, via the Stability-Instability Paradox, the potential for proxy conflict goes up:

The stability–instability paradox is an international relations theory regarding the effect of nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction. It states that when two countries each have nuclear weapons, the probability of a direct war between them greatly decreases, but the probability of minor or indirect conflicts between them increases. This occurs because rational actors want to avoid nuclear wars, and thus they neither start major conflicts nor allow minor conflicts to escalate into major conflicts—thus making it safe to engage in minor conflicts. For instance, during the Cold War the United States and the Soviet Union never engaged each other in warfare, but fought proxy wars in Korea,Vietnam, Angola, the Middle East, Nicaragua and Afghanistan and spent substantial amounts of money and manpower on gaining relative influence over the third world.

Stability–instability paradox

6. India is stepping up its own space capabilities and Pakistan needs a counter. Even if you can't destroy them via ASAT or electronic warfare, you can still negatively affect them using some ground-based methods. One such method is "blinding lasers" to interfere with electro-optical satellites or damage critical electronics on remote sensing satellites.

This is a satellite spotting laser. Larger, more powerful lasers can damage satellites.

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7. Cost is going to be a problem for any large military facing a large foe that is gaining in sophistication. One recourse is to opt for unmanned areal and naval assets. Pakistan already has its Burraq drone for counter-land duties, and perhaps a sea-surveillance/counter-shipping version can be worked out too, but Pakistan - facing an increasing submarine threat from India, can offset the cost of improving its own submarine capability (should that be too costly) by opting for UUVs to patrol and monitor Pakistani waters.

Suicide UUVs can be used as cost-effective anti-submarine weapons should they detect a target.

These are easily deploy-able from existing ships and are a cost effective solution.

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8. I know, I know, "how's Pakistan going to pay for it?"

  • that wasn't really the point of this post. These are real world options, but a hypothetical set of impact recommendations that would make a difference.
  • But that doesn't mean Pakistan is left stranded either. It has options.
Pakistan's defense doctrine right now is predicated on maintaining a nuclear deterrence to deter Indian aggression or retaliatory action. Keep this! Maintain a minimum credible deterrence, and once the economy improves, shift military spending into high gear. It takes work, the world is ill right now, but Pakistan is making progress. Reforms such as revising the tax code and tax enforcement must be mandated. Reform helps an economy grow and be more resilient to future shocks.

CPEC and China provide Pakistan with an important life-line.

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These are my thoughts on defense options. I understand they might not all be feasible or affordable, they aren't for most nations, but these option can provide Pakistan with an updated deterrence that brings it into the 21st century and positions Pakistan for future success.

Space, cyber warfare, sub-surface warfare, drones, these are option Pakistan can't afford not to invest in!

@Armstrong @Oscar @MastanKhan @Gufi @Indus Falcon - thoughts? Counter proposals?
I dont knw icud be 100 pc wrong but 80 pc suggestions u are giving are thoroughly defensive in nature,we will protect ourselves but how will we inflict such massive damages on them to stop the war.
I dont know ur proposal made me feel like we are some meekly mice.
Hi,

As I stated in the other thread---we cannot keep on making nuc threats against our sovereignty all the time. This threat was well and good in 199---2002---after that it started eating up on every sympathetic ear that we had.

When the seriousness of Fukushima reactor became obvious----the business slowed down to a crawl on the west coast cities in the united states---and Fukushima reactor incident was not expected to be that bad.

The world had turned a corner after the stock market crash in 2008----people lost their life savings and many have built them up----and no one wants to lose them again----. So when Pakistan talks about the nuc option----it is creating animosity amongst the public that it did not need to.

The problem here is that it does not understand of the consequences---it does not want to understand that the problem is its own doing----the problem has been created because one wing of the military did not buy the right item when given multiple opportunities.

That is what it is all about----we are alienating the world slowly but surely because of the screw-ups of the PAF.

If Paf had bought the Rafales after 2002 and had 5 sqdrn's of them in stock----things would have been running smoothly.

Even now---if Pakistan has aircraft that can cut open the indian belly on the Mumbai coastline---we will see a difference in the attitude thatindia has----.

4 Sqdrn strength of JH7B's with aesa---totally changes the of the strike capabilities of the air force again---.

Just reaching into Maharashtra changes the picture completely---and you cannot do that on JF 17's alone----.

Pakistan needs to find around 5 billion dollars to upgrade its air force on a fastrak----in a very short time.

That would reduce the continuous standoffs and tension across the border----we will stop making these childish nuc threats that we do all the time---.

Without a powerful air force---Pakistan is doomed into failure at india's whim.

Because every time india raises the level of threat---it effects our forward progression immensely---.

JF 17 is not the answer to Pakistan's prayers.



No I did not-----. It is in a totally different context to that of the air force.

In last decade we had two stand offs and its india who suffered badly each time. How can aircraft purchases prevent the standoff situation and mainly border tensions, if by border tensions u mean the every now n then loc violations.

Oh cud jh 7b really go that deep into maharashtra without getting detected n shot down? Then we shud go for it cuz ithink that doppelsh guy lives there.
 
I dont knw icud be 100 pc wrong but 80 pc suggestions u are giving are thoroughly defensive in nature,we will protect ourselves but how will we inflict such massive damages on them to stop the war.
I dont know ur proposal made me feel like we are some meekly mice.


In last decade we had two stand offs and its india who suffered badly each time. How can aircraft purchases prevent the standoff situation and mainly border tensions, if by border tensions u mean the every now n then loc violations.

Oh cud jh 7b really go that deep into maharashtra without getting detected n shot down? Then we shud go for it cuz ithink that doppelsh guy lives there.

H,

Off course they will get detected and some will get shot down---that is what happens to planes that fly into combat----but the thing is that they can reach the state of Maharashtra and come back----.

Let e explain it in layperson's term----.

If a guest comes to your house and you can only serve them with Daal Chawal or vegetables and roti---tht is wht the F 16 and JF 16 are like.

JH7B is like Murghi karahi and naan----and J11D is like Lamb karahi and Kulchay-----. So which one is better.
 
H,

Off course they will get detected and some will get shot down---that is what happens to planes that fly into combat----but the thing is that they can reach the state of Maharashtra and come back----.

Let e explain it in layperson's term----.

If a guest comes to your house and you can only serve them with Daal Chawal or vegetables and roti---tht is wht the F 16 and JF 16 are like.

JH7B is like Murghi karahi and naan----and J11D is like Lamb karahi and Kulchay-----. So which one is better.

Ummmm u made me feel more hungry. I wud want everything daal, veges,karahi,kulchay as long as its not nihari and paeyyy ,eekkksss they arent cool.
 
Hi,

Pakistanis need to look at their map in relation to India-----. Their ability to strike back at india is over the Arabian sea / indian ocean-----which gives them a vast opportunity of multiple targets.

Unlike the land across border---where there would be multiple surface to air batteries operating---and extremely difficult to penetrate.

The vast ocean gives limitless opportunities to an aircraft that can fly long distances with standoff weapons----.

The purpose of the war needs to create panic in southern india---the state of Gujrat---maharashtra---the first sorties out of the bases on Arabian sea would be basically one way sorties----to take out the electronic hubs of india and the cities along the coastline---create hysteria amongst the foreign community---make them leave in a panic----.

This act needs to be committed by the aircraft and not by surface to surface missiles primarily----..

Drop a million dollar missiles on a 50 dollar hut---you have done minus one million dollar damage plus the fuel and maintenance cost-----.

Drop a million dollar missile on a 10 million dollar facility and you done a 50 million dollar damage----. Destroy the industrial centers of south india----.

We know that india is going to destroy us---destroy our cities---but we have to hurt them where it hurts the most----.

You have been repeating the same thing over and over for quite some time now.The poster @Cry me a river raised some valid points (i'm pasting his post below).You have still not addressed the obstacles to your grand scheme that he put forward.I'm looking forward to the post where you do?

''
Both on this thread and another similar thread, you have been advocating induction of JH-7B instead of JF-17 for maritime strikes and deep strike role. When doing so, you are bound to provide reason as to what benefits a JH-7B would bring in term of survivability over JF-17. Assume you order JH-7B on fast track basis, by the time it would be delivered India would have two Aircraft carriers capable of carrying mix of 60 carrier borne Mig-29Ks and N-LCA between them (India finished construction work on its second Aircraft carrier in April this year and that carrier is undergoing weapons fit and would be ready by 2016 end/2017 beginning).

Any strike package of Pakistan Airforce via sea route would be facing at least 30 Mig-29K today (India has total of 45 Mig 29K but Vikramaditya could carry only 30 Mig-29.Rest 15 seem to be ordered to keep availability at 30 all time), and a mix of 70 Mig-29Ks and N-LCA in half a decade time. And if it is able to dodge them, that strike package would have to contend with two Squadrons of Su-30MKI based in Lohegaon just 80 Km away from Mumbai (Charged with job of defending Mumbai from Cruise missile and Air attacks) and a battery of S-300.

Faced with such an opponent, you need to justify as to how a dedicated BOMBER with limited self defence capability will survive a gauntlet of close to 100 Air-superiority fighters, destroyers (Kolkata class with 32 Barak-8) of Indian Navy, and one of the best SAM battery in existence and still deliver its bomb load. If anything, Indian carrier borne fighters and MKI's would receive a lumbering overloaded bomber with a "thank you PAF" note.

Just because you could load JH-7B with much more AShCMs and bombs that JF-17 does not mean anything, if it is flying into a turkey shoot. Faced with such an adversary as PAF would be facing, a multi role Aircraft like JF-17 would have better chance of survival, even if its range and payload are limited.

You cannot wiggle out of these questions by throwing lame lines that "This thread is to discuss Pakistan's capabilities and shortcomings----. So---please if you keep your remarks out of it-", because PAF bomber would be facing both IAF fighters and IN carrier borne fighters, thus making discussion of India's capability relevant to this and your other JH-7B thread. If you are willing to ignore Indian capabilities ,and are bent on evaluating Aircrafts only on basis of their Payload and range, then why not buy B-29 Bombers from junkyard. They have higher payload and Range than any modern day tactical bomber.''


You have not addressed in any manner how you intend to deal with the mig-29ks,MKis at Lohegaon,S-300 battery,Barak-8s when campaigning for heavy bomber.I would like you to address these points which i think will validate your view more than repeating every 2 pages we need to go over arabian sea and destroy stuff.
 
You have been repeating the same thing over and over for quite some time now.The poster @Cry me a river raised some valid points (i'm pasting his post below).You have still not addressed the obstacles to your grand scheme that he put forward.I'm looking forward to the post where you do?

''
Both on this thread and another similar thread, you have been advocating induction of JH-7B instead of JF-17 for maritime strikes and deep strike role. When doing so, you are bound to provide reason as to what benefits a JH-7B would bring in term of survivability over JF-17. Assume you order JH-7B on fast track basis, by the time it would be delivered India would have two Aircraft carriers capable of carrying mix of 60 carrier borne Mig-29Ks and N-LCA between them (India finished construction work on its second Aircraft carrier in April this year and that carrier is undergoing weapons fit and would be ready by 2016 end/2017 beginning).

Any strike package of Pakistan Airforce via sea route would be facing at least 30 Mig-29K today (India has total of 45 Mig 29K but Vikramaditya could carry only 30 Mig-29.Rest 15 seem to be ordered to keep availability at 30 all time), and a mix of 70 Mig-29Ks and N-LCA in half a decade time. And if it is able to dodge them, that strike package would have to contend with two Squadrons of Su-30MKI based in Lohegaon just 80 Km away from Mumbai (Charged with job of defending Mumbai from Cruise missile and Air attacks) and a battery of S-300.

Faced with such an opponent, you need to justify as to how a dedicated BOMBER with limited self defence capability will survive a gauntlet of close to 100 Air-superiority fighters, destroyers (Kolkata class with 32 Barak-8) of Indian Navy, and one of the best SAM battery in existence and still deliver its bomb load. If anything, Indian carrier borne fighters and MKI's would receive a lumbering overloaded bomber with a "thank you PAF" note.

Just because you could load JH-7B with much more AShCMs and bombs that JF-17 does not mean anything, if it is flying into a turkey shoot. Faced with such an adversary as PAF would be facing, a multi role Aircraft like JF-17 would have better chance of survival, even if its range and payload are limited.

You cannot wiggle out of these questions by throwing lame lines that "This thread is to discuss Pakistan's capabilities and shortcomings----. So---please if you keep your remarks out of it-", because PAF bomber would be facing both IAF fighters and IN carrier borne fighters, thus making discussion of India's capability relevant to this and your other JH-7B thread. If you are willing to ignore Indian capabilities ,and are bent on evaluating Aircrafts only on basis of their Payload and range, then why not buy B-29 Bombers from junkyard. They have higher payload and Range than any modern day tactical bomber.''


You have not addressed in any manner how you intend to deal with the mig-29ks,MKis at Lohegaon,S-300 battery,Barak-8s when campaigning for heavy bomber.I would like you to address these points which i think will validate your view more than repeating every 2 pages we need to go over arabian sea and destroy stuff.

Son,

Do you think this is my first Dog & Pony show?

You want me to discuss the tactical strike plan---what the ---- do you think I am---some little kid who wants to brag about the information that he heard between his dad and his uncle.

Ummmm u made me feel more hungry. I wud want everything daal, veges,karahi,kulchay as long as its not nihari and paeyyy ,eekkksss they arent cool.


Hi,

That is why I have been saying----it about the total package that gives you the edge.
 
Hi,

If someone has heard Air Commodre Nosy Haider's interview a couple of days ago----you will realize how important it is to have heavy strike aircraft and heavy air superiority aircraft base at Gwadar / pasni / dalbandin.
 
Hi,

If someone has heard Air Commodre Nosy Haider's interview a couple of days ago----you will realize how important it is to have heavy strike aircraft and heavy air superiority aircraft base at Gwadar / pasni / dalbandin.

Woh sab toh theek hai, but did he really call himself 'Nosy' Haider?

'Haider' itself should be pretty sufficient for the enemy.
 
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