PAF Chief in Washington

[CHI RULES]

Who told you that , then chief of army staff didn't tell the air chief about kargill ?
I guess , you just read lot of stories ?lolzz
Army chief of that time knew pretty well that , what will happen once we go for the kill & he knew well our hands were tied down by that stupid embargo ?
Plan was to bring IAF into Pakistan territory & use our stingers on them ?
It was done to some degree ?
We knew the details , but when your mirages came into night time targeted bombing that's was the moment where we , needed our dam F-16s on our side ?
& it wasn't there we knew it , but that's the way it was ?
Lesson to be learnt , costly showpieces like F-16s are enough , we should get , su-35s or any other plateform in use with our all weather allay like China & let's rumble another kargill , & let's see that any Indian PM has any ballllllls to press the red button or not ?lolzz

Dear Amy planners were of view that they will tackle Indian Jets by Manpads however modern Jets like Mirage2000 flying high were our of range of these Manpads. Further SA provided bofors guns and Ammos to India. The laser guided bombs were fired with accuracy by Mirage 2000. I never say that PAF not knew abt the operation, but thay were informed when operation was already going on. You need prior preparations for pre planned war sorties. I am totally assured that we are able to keep our vintage Mirages airworthy in same way we shall be able to keep our F16s airworthy even if embargoed in future. Just like Iran did with it's 70s era US jets.

But specially in case of Kargil war PAF was not involved in planning period , the may have had enough stockpile of spares for F16s at time of operation. Our soldiers were fighting within Indian territory so it was not possible to provide Air cover by remaining within our own boundaries. Further our F16 were also handicapped as they were having No bvr Missiles. (U may get whole written stuff by PAF officials easily nothing written as per my own fantasy) ( even I heard lon time back that Indians were provided with Satellite images of Pak soldiers/mujahdeens by USA).

To be honest still we have only one plat form which is capable enough to counter modern Indian jets leaving Su 30MKI apart, we have to counter Indian Mig29s and Mirage 2000 both are further upgraded by Indians, having IRST pods, Capable Radars and superior Jamming and Anti Jamming capabilities which were there even during Kargil issue.
Now we have some JF17s with some sort of capable radar and EW capabilities but still missing Irst pod as second tier defensive jet. But our Mirages are totally out of context. Further even F7Ps and F7PGs officially don't have any BVR capabilities our EW suits.

The Pro Windjammer may be consulted to get know how of capabilities of F16. Our F7PGs are nimble enough to be relevant in current scenario if theyt are armed with SD10BVR missile along with EW suit.

 

[Sine Nomine]

People don't seem to realise the true capabilities of the F-16.
It's one of the most reliable, battle tested and combat proven aircraft out there.
Presently our F-16D versions are the most capable platforms in the region.....the PAF is in love with F-16 because it has 30+ years experience on it and knows it's capabilities, if in doubt, just check the psychological effect even a dozen ex-Jordanian machines had on our neighbours.

Yup...those Jordanian Birds Arrival at once in PAF caused heart attack to IAF Intel Chief.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

To counter this argument; why US is contemplating a program to upgrade 200+ of their F-16's? If it were such an obsolete aircraft than why US is still flying 900 of such aircraft today with plans for phased upgrades to their structure to increase flying hours and mission capabilities and plans to re-engine them with more powerful engines?

And btw F-15 is still flying and so is the F/A-18 in USAF and USN/Marine Corps. respectively. Essentially, F-15 and F-16 were both fielded as contenders for a USAF fighter requirements in early 70's! F-18 later F/A-18 was put into service a little later than the F-16 n F-15. therefore essentially all three aircraft were designed in the 70's'.

All the three designs were at the time, in many respects, revolutionary; FBW, use of full duplex data buses, enhanced on-board modular flight computer and digital interfaces (Intro of glass cockpit), engine, air-frame design, thrust to power ratios, use of composites etc. And they were designed from the outset with a capacity to incorporate substantial upgrades.

By the seventies, after numerous failed aircraft designs behind them or with relatively short production runs (Voodo, Banshee, Super Saber, Thunder Chief's and even F-104 which was not a very successful fighter aircraft) realization was there among the manufactures and the users that number of types need to be cut down, multi-role platforms was the way forward. Multi-role required room for improvement in both the equipment and air-frame.

I'm sure are also aware of this -- the day an aircraft design leaves the drawing board for a production run, the design teams starts getting busy with a newer design!!!

Just to take the point made by CHI RULES further. India wanted to escalate the conflict -- we did not that is why they were using their front line fighters and we were not using our airforce.

Kargil was a badly thought out plan from a strategic perspective, a brilliant move on a tactical level carried out with immense gusto and bravery.

 

[batmannow]

Dear Amy planners were of view that they will tackle Indian Jets by Manpads however modern Jets like Mirage2000 flying high were our of range of these Manpads. Further SA provided bofors guns and Ammos to India. The laser guided bombs were fired with accuracy by Mirage 2000. I never say that PAF not knew abt the operation, but thay were informed when operation was already going on. You need prior preparations for pre planned war sorties. I am totally assured that we are able to keep our vintage Mirages airworthy in same way we shall be able to keep our F16s airworthy even if embargoed in future. Just like Iran did with it's 70s era US jets.

But specially in case of Kargil war PAF was not involved in planning period , the may have had enough stockpile of spares for F16s at time of operation. Our soldiers were fighting within Indian territory so it was not possible to provide Air cover by remaining within our own boundaries. Further our F16 were also handicapped as they were having No bvr Missiles. (U may get whole written stuff by PAF officials easily nothing written as per my own fantasy) ( even I heard lon time back that Indians were provided with Satellite images of Pak soldiers/mujahdeens by USA).

To be honest still we have only one plat form which is capable enough to counter modern Indian jets leaving Su 30MKI apart, we have to counter Indian Mig29s and Mirage 2000 both are further upgraded by Indians, having IRST pods, Capable Radars and superior Jamming and Anti Jamming capabilities which were there even during Kargil issue.
Now we have some JF17s with some sort of capable radar and EW capabilities but still missing Irst pod as second tier defensive jet. But our Mirages are totally out of context. Further even F7Ps and F7PGs officially don't have any BVR capabilities our EW suits.

The Pro Windjammer may be consulted to get know how of capabilities of F16. Our F7PGs are nimble enough to be relevant in current scenario if theyt are armed with SD10BVR missile along with EW suit.

Dear ,
I don't need to know what happened in kargill , as still many of mission details are still classified , but as a part of that executiinary force , I was there myself so??
Our higher command wanted to keep few of our F-16s flyble assests to counter any misadventure by IAF anywhere else in the rest of Pakistan , just not in kargill ?
But if we would have our whole fleet bueng able to flyable then we could have secured our supplies , which were well within our borders ?
No matter how many times mirrages would have attacked us , or how many GPS images been provided to IAF , if our F-16s secured us of our supplies , kargill would never been fight able to Indians as our positions were mobile & were on the top of Indians troops .
our military command just kept the, flyable F-16s to counter any attack of IAF on other strategic positions , that's what they could have done best !
& they did it ?
But for F-16s we , can't say anything surly still that they wouldn't be jammed if we go to defend ourselfes at our will ?
&that's the bottom line ?
Thanks god , kargill has brought us THUNDER !.
Kargill has showen the world that with very limited resources we can attack 3 times bigger enemy any time we want ?

 

[Mani2020]

there is no doubt about having some lovers or beneficiaries of F-16s in our military establishment & they were the ones keeping our higher command tied down with F-16s deals ?
Even putting stupid fear of USA , which can be very angry if we go for other high end aircrafts from other countries ?
We have oppoutunities , even few of our high command were interested for them , like you said , su -27s & then mirrage 2000s , but strangly they were stopped at last ?
This whole story of F-16s needs to be investigated

Look there is a possibility of everything.... these people are as much prone to corruption as any of our politicians are... at the end of the day they are just like us and them... normal people... brought up in a Pakistani society which is full of corruption and my share your share mentality... they are not people from mars who can't be corrupt or are not concerned about their share in every deal as many fanboys claim here....... like our politicians they too can have a tendency to bear a pro US stance which can influence their decision making... bottom line is everyone should be held accountable for anything harmful he has done to this country and no one should be above law... not me not you not political leadership not military people...

 

[Aamir Hussain]

My friend you mean to say our F-7's and Mirages were just show pieces????

And was PAF fully on board at the time of Kargil -- and if our fighters were not in a condition to fly then why the hell did we go on this adventure???????

If it was a surgical operation and was restricted to limited area why was there a need for air assets to be brought in and raise the ante??

Some highly ambitious flag officer in FCNA got us in to this mess. If we were not prepared to follow-up this operation with sustained resupply operations and air-cover then we should have waited for a better opportunity. Specially when we were facing essentially a world wide political isolation and embargoes!!!!

I'm an ardent Mushi supporter but here I must say so that as Army Chief, he made the biggest blunder of his military career.

My hats off to those who laid down their lives ( Some of whom I knew !!) and fought bravely against immense odds and gave their lives and performed above the call of duty by any count. This nations owes a debt of immense gratitude to those who participated in it, fought, got injured, and ultimately died there on the cold heights of Drass N Kargil, a lonely death!!!!! The biggest testament to the bravery of those who fought there is when ur enemy acknowledges -- and that they did!!!

But sadly, was an aircraft to be blamed for bad strategic planning, poor vision, and next to none understanding of our enemy and a complete grasp of what was at stake for us and our "Friendly" neighbor???

I can understand your frustrations if you were part of that operation........Persons who have not served will and can not imagine the sense of camaraderie and esprit de corp of men in uniform with each other and the parent organization.

But my friend and comrade, war is not an end by itself but a means to a political end. We were militarily in a weak position with embargoes, politically isolated. Our Arab friends were pissed off over our support to various dissident groups that were operating out of Afghanistan and Pakistan, Chinese were advising us to wait another ten to fifteen years (And they were proved right -- and now see what is happening around us) Was it a good time to do what we ended up doing? Our position only got better because of 9/11 otherwise things were going from bad to worse.

I apologize before hand if any of my above remarks hurt you in any way @batmannow

P.S. Thank God someone had the foresight to keep the air assets intact -- otherwise I can only imagine how things would have turned out for us.

 

[New World]

SU is a real threat to Pakistan not from the east but from the south west!!!

if real thread of Su is not from east(india) than how real thread came from south west(Iran,UAE,Oman)??

explain please..

 

[Windjammer]

Guys, without going too much in detail, the above image is during the 2002 stand off with India, i have the privilege to often speak to one of these officers in the picture who was very much in the thick of it during the Kargil conflict. In his own words, that during peace time, both air forces may test waters by brief air violations which sometimes also happen inadvertently.
Albeit,. localised, Kargil was a full blown conflict, had either air force crossed over to harass the other side, it would have meant a declaration of war which neither side wanted, the IAF carried out strikes within it's own side of the border, the few times the Indian planes violated, apparently by error, they paid the price. Indian MiG gains a lock on a PAF F-16 from within it's own air space and IAF awards it's pilot, on the contrary, couple of F-16s trail a flight of 5 MiG-29s for about 20 minutes, the Indian pilots oblivious to the presence of the F-16 until informed by their GCI, causing Indians to panic that they almost crash into each nother, but PAF remains professional about it with hardly any mention of this incident.

 

[xperia]

Let's break your argument then , that if F-16S WERE SO GREAT ,then why USA needs to build other aircrafts ?
& why to spend so much money on experiments ?
Answer is simple , F-16s were great fighting machines from its decade . but it doesn't belong to times of now & future ?

USA has entirely different defence requirements then pakistan. They have an aim to have the best air power which can strike any where on the globe.We on the other hand have one aim to defend ourselves against india. We have no cold or hot conflict with russia. With this aim and very limited funds F-16 is the only option left for pakistan

 

[Mani2020]

USA has entirely different defence requirements then pakistan. They have an aim to have the best air power which can strike any where on the globe.We on the other hand have one aim to defend ourselves against india. We have no cold or hot conflict with russia. With this aim and very limited funds F-16 is the only option left for pakistan

Don't bring funds into it as in early 2000's paf had funds as they didn't carry out any major purchase after embargo so that give them good time to save for the future ....and do you even know Ukraine was offering paf su-27s at a price of approx 8million dollars per piece back then with very low flying hours on them ....they had approx 70 su-27s with them along with more than 150 mig29s...

 

[xperia]

So you think that the second hand su 27s in the early 2000s are better then block 52s and MLUs?Funds became an issue in the mid 2000s after the devastating earth quake in 2005

 

[Mani2020]

So you think that the second hand su 27s in the early 2000s are better then block 52s and MLUs?Funds became an issue in the mid 2000s after the devastating earth quake in 2005

We are talking about pre 2005 scenario way before earthquake hit us ....here you are considering 70 su27s against 18 f-16s ask yourself ....besides it wouldnt have to be a trade off ...we would have acquired both as $8 million for a plane of su27 class was just a bargain ....we would have later upgraded them with the help of Ukraine and China as China was working on j-11 series at that time ...just imagine you would have 70 odd upgraded su27s in paf along with other jets ..what message it would have sent to india ...besides as we see improving relations with Russia we would have acquired a lot of direct and indirect assistance now...that acquisition would have given paf a lot of lift

 

[aliyusuf]

So you think that the second hand su 27s in the early 2000s are better then block 52s and MLUs?Funds became an issue in the mid 2000s after the devastating earth quake in 2005

Actually no ... that was just a guise used to begin the plundering of the nations resources. This plundering didn't stop when a regime change occurred in 2008. It grew worse by 100 fold. It is estimated that between 2008 and 2013 Rs.8.5 Trillion i.e. USD 85 Billion was looted from the economy. What the current government has done is to borrow more money than that had been borrowed since independence till 2013. We will know after they are replaced by somebody else ... about what they have been able to do with that money?

@Mani2020, Sir, the issue with the Su-27s back in the 90s was that Ukraine was not in any position to guarantee unhindered supply of spares and maintenance support. Russia on the other hand, when contacted in this context, was asking too much for spares and maintenance and was not willing to provide any guarantees either for depot level support. In the end the deal fizzled out.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

if real thread of Su is not from east(india) than how real thread came from south west(Iran,UAE,Oman)??

explain please..

The extended range of SU-30 MKI with in-flight refueling will enable it to come from seaward side (Baluchistan) completely bypassing our traditional radar coverage.

This scenario has been played out number of times in war college.

 

[zebra7]

Nor , does F-16s ?
Dam pice of shyt , can't fly the time we needed , doesnt matters , blk 52 ,53 , 54 or 84 , NASA will jam it anytime they want ?

Janab Salam Walekum. One Question Does NASA have such capablility to jam blk 52 ,53 , 54 and 84

I don't understand when people say F-16 is an 80's aircraft designed in 70's and is now obsolete or about to be obsolete. I breakdown a fighter's capabilities in three categories, hard power, soft power, and killing power.

Hard Power (the visible jet): Lets leave the stealth designs out for the moment. Comparing F-16's aerodynamically unstable but sleek design, low RCS, agility, maneuverability; combat load, range, endurance, G rating, etc. with other "modern" fighters of the same class like Typhon, Rafael, Grippen, MIG29, and J10, I don't see any thing missing or severely lacking to consider it "obsolete or about to become obsolete" in hard power. Subject to driver skills, It can still match / outclass any of the mentioned and some ... platforms any day of the year.

Soft Power: According to my classification, net working, avionics, detection, targeting, ECM, and computing power etc., fall in this category. Evolution in this area (barring stealth tech sensor fusion) has nothing to do with the airframe design of 60's or 70's, which itself has evolved per requirements.

Even in this area, F-16 has not been stagnant, in fact it has been at the forefront of receiving most upgrades in almost every aspect be it radar upgrades, networking, jamming, targeting or whatever. no other platform comes close to vipers in number of upgrades and today despite being a four decade old fighter it is still very potent, battle proven beyond any doubts and has on many occasions outclassed other contemporary fighters in exercises. Any one who says F-16 is 80's technology, is misinformed.

Killing/destructive Power: This depends on he armament and the flexibility in the soft systems to integrate. With todays advancement in computer tech, integration of western weapons on western jets is not an issue. Vipers have a wide variety of options to suit almost every mission profile. Almost all of the latest US weapons find their place on one of the hard points on vipers and they have been used very successfully in recent conflicts. I am not sure about the numbers, but I believe Vipers are the biggest singly fighter force in USAF, and because of that almost every new weapon gets integrated on them, making them ever more lethal and up to date in killing as well as soft power.

New advancements in military technology are very expensive and because the military spending across the world (specially the western world) has gone down significantly since the end of cold war, new tech is not going to be widely affordable and the fourth gen fighter would remain relevant for another two decades, I doubt that even US would be able to retire all of its F-16's (the low end fighter in 15/16 mix) in the next 10 years. I think Eagles and Falcons would remain the bulk of US air fighting machine for another decade with 22 and 35 filling the air dominance / Awe / fear factor role.

copied from F-16.net and it is for the USAF to retire F-16 or not. Question here is whether F-16 is getting the upgrades or not. F-16 have been modified/upgraded continously and from the fighter plane which was designed with the guns only dogfighter it has become multirole fighter, and with sucessful history upto block 60/70. @batmannow is correct to one extent that its era have ended , not because of its capability but due to USAF shift of the f-16/f-15 to f-35/f-22. Though Pakistan did enjoy an edge over IAF when she acquired f16, but somehow pakistan inherited some restriction with the same, by the US. Not only it was restricted to use it against Indians in war, which will cause the ban for the spares, but ironically pakistan was not allowed the top of the tech. like AIM 129c7, IRST, aim9x, Programable DRFM(rumor its only done by US technitians). So the problem for Paf could be that not new technologies or upgrades will be available, but that time is far far away because PAF f-16 still lack certain edge like Aesa Radar, DRFM.IRST.

Now there are rumor for F-35 and some of my Pakistani member would like it to be in pakisani color, but does Pakistans PAF really have such requirement, I don't think it so. It is only meant for the countries like Russia and China where the fighter planes need to cross long country and distance. Now the people who wants it for the naval role, then does Pakistan is facing the threat which is coming from thousands of miles away to support Pakistani CBG and the distroyers who are enganged with the PN, to do the strike. Attacking the naval warship does not need a dogfighter, and for defensive naval operation a simple plane is required which could fire AsHM supported with AEW and costal radars all along the sea border.

Search for the best fighter plane is not easy and there are various factors to be seen and decided not on the basis of the money and requirement of today but with the foreseen future in the mind.

Let's break your argument then , that if F-16S WERE SO GREAT ,then why USA needs to build other aircrafts ?
& why to spend so much money on experiments ?
Answer is simple , F-16s were great fighting machines from its decade . but it doesn't belong to times of now & future ?

So which fighter plane do you suggest excluding Su-35. which is better than F-16 blk 60