PAF and the JXX Fifth Gen Fighter

[Storm Force]

India, Russia ink biggest-ever military deal

The above news will no doubt have rippled into Pakistans military head quarters.

The official signing of the joint development of a 5th gen fighter (a sPin off from PAK FA).

With so much talk about FC20 in 2015 & possiblly more F16s from Norway or Europe post 2016 should the PAF not start to really push china on joining their JXX fifth gen fighter programme.

Some PDF members are claiming the chinease are neck and neck with Russia on their own programme and will enter IOC at the same time around 2018 time frame.

IF THIS IS TRUE ????????

Rather than comitt $2 BILLION ON FC20 or $1 billion more on used early F16s wud it not be bet better use of limited resources to go to

THUNDER ONLY as the main project

And spend $1 billion or $2 billion on joining JXX

Surely one sqd of JXX in 2020 COSTING $2 billion will be better than 5 sdqs F16s or 3 of FC20 COSTING THE SAME...

 

[Storm Force]

Realistically by the the time the First FC20 enter PAF in 2015 THE fgfa COULD be only 2 -3 years away from IOC with IAF.

Once PAF comits the $1.5 billion to buy 40+ fighters that money has gone on what will be PAFs frontline state of the ART FIGHTER FOR NEXT 20 YEARS..IE 2015-2035 AND i assume they will want more than just 40....

For this reason i would go Thunder 200+

Then striAght to JXX and Give FC20 A MISS esp if the gap between Thunder and FC20 is not large in tech terms. afterall both are essentially single engined multi role platforms.

JXX will be a twin engined super stealth multi role fighter with vast range TVC and very small RCS and complete new senso fusion work.

They will eat the IAF SU30MKI fleet and even scare the MMRCA TYPHOONS if IAF buys those too.

FC20 will not give the numerically inferior PAF fleet a tech edge over mki or mmrca that it needs as the smaller air power.

 

[Storm Force]

Many people believe the below image to be a protrotype of the china JXX effort.

Chinese Stealth Fighter | Defence Aviation

Any nation with a $2 trillion FOREX and already building FC20 class fighters can surely move into a FIFTH gen project sooner or later.

THE BIG QUESTION will PAF try to join the project as india has done with RUSSIA ON PAK FA

 

[SEAL]

T-50 Pak-fa is 10 years away, currently PAF is worried about LCA threat.
Regarding inductions PAF goal is to induct 200 new fighter jets in the period of 2010-2015, after 2015 talks for 5th generation will start.

 

[Storm Force]

Raptor read the thread again.

The point is cyrstal clear let me highlight the point

Should could PAF go striaght to JXX project and miss the FC20 induction completley as the FC20 is 5 years away and has the same role as the Thunder. ie single engined Multi role fighter

Esp in light of india,s massive comitment now formalised with Russia today for PAK FA project.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is extremely unlikely that the PAF will change its acquisition plans from purchasing the FC-20 and/or more F-16 Block 52's or a comparable existing Fighter, in favor of a yet to be operational J-XX.

 

[Pfpilot]

It makes no sense for Pakistan to go straight for 5th generation fighters, because Pakistan still has too many 3rd generation fighters. If Pakistan skipped the f-16s and j-10s, we'd have a squadron or two of j-xx and another couple of hundred mirage and f-7 fighters. The jf-17s can't be are be all and end all, they are great as a point defensive fighter at this point,, but in a strike role and an air superiority role, the j-10 and f-16s are far superior At this time it is far more logical to complete an overhaul of an aging PAF fleet instead of patching things up just to stand toe to toe with a free spending neighbor. Once Pakistan has replaced the older fighters and the j-10 and jf-17s are in service, then the PAF can take the next logical step and move ahead to the next generation.

 

[Hulk]

Pakistan and India follow entierly different way of purchasing the equipment. While India plans ahead in time and thinks for years ahead. Pakistan on the other hand looks more at current threat or recent future threat like 3 to 5 years. They have been very smart as well, we bought AWACS after years of lobbying planning etc. The moment the deal was made Pakistan got something similar from SWEDEN, pretty much in the same time as India.

So I guess when they will see in coming 3 to 5 years when PAK-FA will be possible, they will then start thinking about their options and buy something off the shelf.

I guess right now they are banking on China and trust me China will give them JXX when they make it.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan and India follow entierly different way of purchasing the equipment. While India plans ahead in time and thinks for years ahead. Pakistan on the other hand looks more at current threat or recent future threat like 3 to 5 years. They have been very smart as well, we bought AWACS after years of lobbying planning etc. The moment the deal was made Pakistan got something similar from SWEDEN, pretty much in the same time as India.

So I guess when they will see in coming 3 to 5 years when PAK-FA will be possible, they will then start thinking about their options and buy something off the shelf.

I guess right now they are banking on China and trust me China will give them JXX when they make it.

You are correct that, in this case at least, the PAF and IAF have different strategies. India is looking to be a partner in the FGFA program and therefore acquire technology and know-how related to manufacturing a 5th Gen. Fighter. In order to accomplish that there is no option but to commit to the program years (perhaps decades, only time will tell) in advance.

The PAF on the other hand, if one is to go by the recent statement issued by the PAF ACM, is not looking to invest in China's 5th Gen. program since, to paraphrase his words, Pakistan does not have anything to offer in terms of fifth generation fighter know-how or technology.

Obviously the other unsaid reason is related to financial issues - in the absence of providing technological input, one must put up a fair amount of money to fund or co-fund the R&D in order to become a partner, as India is doing. Pakistan is at the moment unable to do that, though it may change depending on how things develop WRT to the J-XX and the Pakistani economy in the next decade or so.

But just because the PAF has not announced a plan to invest in the development of the J-XX or something similar does not mean that it will not purchase the aircraft (or a comparable one) when it does become operational and if/when it is offered for export. So the PAF is not necessarily at a major disadvantage at this point WRT 5th Gen. technology just because India and Russia announced a partnership to develop one.

 

[graphican]

@Storm Force,

Your point doesn't even have a half logic in it. You could surly have disagreed to yourself if you had thought about and calculated the possible consequences of adopting the way you are suggesting.

Our old fighters are living up their life and no matter how many JXX we procure, (which is by the way a hypothetical scenario), we wouldn't be able to defend against piling Indian squadrons until unless we do exactly what we are doing.

I don't have clear understanding of what PAF is upto, but I know one thing that whatever they are upto, they are upto for good!

 

[conworldus]

Don't worry guys. If the Russian 5th gen fighter enters service on time I will literally eat my own pants. Remember that Russia first invited China to join the program (way before India was even in the equation), but China declined. A deep reason is that China understands that a real 5th gen Russian fighter is in fact decades away and Russia has little to offer technologically to the 5th gen fighter program. Put the PAK-FA time frame around 2030 is more realistic. F-16 and FC-20 will be enough for Pakistan for the next 20 years.

 

[Speeder 2]

Raptor read the thread again.

The point is cyrstal clear let me highlight the point

Should could PAF go striaght to JXX project and miss the FC20 induction completley as the FC20 is 5 years away and has the same role as the Thunder. ie single engined Multi role fighter

Esp in light of india,s massive comitment now formalised with Russia today for PAK FA project.

PAF Shouldn't and couldn't IMO.

It is because there will be a significant time gap and corresponding risks involved if it does so:

(assuming Indian 5th gen inducted about 10y from now), with whatever MMRC fighter IAF will get , EF or Rafale , together with its already inducted MKI, it can give consistent and real pressure on PAF´s JF-17s in the next 10 year since they are at least 0,5 gen ahead.

10 years (this is assuming that PAF will get J-XX right after 10years) or longer! This is the time gap and risk that PAF must cover .

With FC20 and F16 advanced blocks, the gap and risk are more or less mitigated.

And don´t get carried away by India´s FGFA contract. A lot of things can happen during 10 years...

But you see IAF at least hedged its bet - if something goes wrong with FGFA, it still has MKI and MMCA. Therefore, again , PAF should do the same going for the equivalents (FC20, F-16) meantime.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Doesnt this guy has better things to do then bring back same topics that were discussed before. You think PAF had no idea of this news ahead of time? Mods kindly block this thread. Pointless and same old bickering.

 

[monitor]

current and near future threat for Paf is su-30mki mrca after 2020 fgfa .pakistan should start thinking about this threat .current threat like su-30mki/mrca may counter with combination of f-16 fc-20 and jf-17 but how could the fgfa ? only realistic option is j-xx.some kind of negotiation is necessary so that china can provide j-xx as soon as serial production started .

 

[PAFAce]

A fifth generation air force capability is one of four key areas that India has a head-start on Pakistan in, and in which Pakistan seems to be dragging its feet. The others are: space technology (both civilian and defensive), nuclear reactor technology (civilian and defensive) and a missile shield. We are currently doing a decent job of narrowing the gap India had managed on in the later 1990s and early 2000s in the defense field, but we must also look ahead.

As much as I don't appreciate the connotations of the thread starter, he has, nevertheless, identified a key issue. We are so content and happy with the JF-17s and FC-20s that we've failed to realize that, whatever the expected time frame of the PAK-FA is, India still has a significant jump on us. I would wholeheartedly support any move by Pakistan to divert funds from our F-16 and JF-17 procurement plans towards the famous (or infamous) J-XX. If not, at least we should try and lobby the US for the F-35.