PAF and The Case for Eurofighter Typhoon

[Ultima Thule]

Although i would love to see J10c in PAF colours,they are formidable aircraft but their airframes,engines,radars and avionics are decades behind any nearest Western counterpart.

EFT extremely expensive jet 150 million of $$$, and how do you know that J-10C legged decades behind any western jets, you're speculate ceaselessly without knowing capabilities of Chinese Aviation industries, and IF we buy EFT from EU most probably it will have strings with it, Just like our F-16

 

[SABRE]

Interesting post. I am thinking that a peer-on-peer war between India and Pakistan will start of with skirmishes, and then lead to a sudden expansion of aggressive assaults.

The one key glaring weakness for Pak would be close air support. While India has attack helicopters and a large number of ground attack aircraft, PAF does not have the numbers to give out valuable strike and air superiority assets to close air support.

Compounding this problem is that the Mirages aren't suitable for close air support at all, and Pak would largely have to rely on a handful of tired and dilapidated AH-1s.

This means that PAF will largely be fighting a separate air war while PA's largely infantry dominated forces duke it out against a much larger and better equiped force.

I am again going to approach this subject theoretically. Wars are too unpredictable to bet on a set of skirmishes. For smaller forces like PAF, it makes little sense to hope for such tactics against a bigger and better-equipped opponent. Probability of achieving limited gains might be low while probabilities of gradual attrition and depletion of resource could be relatively higher. For instance, India lost 2 to 3 aerial assets on 27th Feb 2019 and wasted a perfectly good bomb on 26th Feb 2019 (though this is a bad example as it took place during a limited conflict). It appears that the PAF & PN have always realized this fact all to well and have fully utilized their assets against the enemy in the wars they have fought, and that too to the best of their ability. In the end, whatever type/scale of conflict is, Pakistan needs to ensure that it dictates the rules of escalation and dominates the escalation ladder.

Keeping things constant, I do not see how the PAAC would be able to sustain air operations against Indian forces, given its meagre resources. All we can hope for is a miracle from Allah SWT - that's true in all case. The attack helicopter thing needs to be sorted out quickly. But even then so, PA will always require CAS from PAF. PAF is the only force that complements the other two wings of the Pakistani military. Yet while the PN until recently has been continuously thrown under the bus PAF has been forced to depend on 2nd hand, cheap, or free stuff - which are in fact not free at all (some have been paid for by blood). I would say again, carry out austerity within institutions for force modernization. Equip PAF with a quality fighter aircraft that would serve in the lead role for the next 20-25 years and begin complementing AZM as it replaces it in the lead role, provided AZM is successful. It appears that PAC is prioritising improving JF-17's A2G capability. I would stick to that instead of looking into dedicated fighter-bomber like JH-7 as some members have suggested.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

EFT extremely expensive jet 150 million of $$$

The second hand EFs are much much cheaper.

how do you know that J-10C legged decades behind any western jets

The Chinese airframes have a very short shelf life maybe 3 times less as goes with the Russian/Chinese engines again they dont have the right mix of alloys to bring them at par with any Western aircraft.

we buy EFT from EU most probably it will have strings with it

Maybe and Maybe not depending on which country you are buying from. Italians seem to be very generous with us and so are the Brits and others.

you're speculate ceaselessly without knowing capabilities of Chinese Aviation industries,

China have made great strides in Radars and avionics i give them credit for that. But are they battle worthy and not prone to jamming is another issue!!
If PAF gets J10C instead of EFs i will still be happy.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The second hand EFs are much much cheaper.

And Pakistan/PAF loves Multi-role jets rather than single mission EFT tranche-1/2

The Chinese airframes have a very short shelf life maybe 3 times less as goes with the Russian/Chinese engines again they dont have the right mix of alloys to bring them at par with any Western aircraft.

And then why We develop JF-17 and other aviation project if air frame life is so low, and Chinese pouring 20 billion $$$ to develop a decent engine, and they are relatively new in engine development Field from scratch and by the way they develop WS-10 which has better service life than Russian engines and quite near to western standards, they have 500+ of these,

Maybe and Maybe not depending on which country you are buying from. Italians seem to be very generous with us and so are the Brits and others.

And there is no way that you can confirm that EFT coming without strings

China have made great strides in Radars and avionics i give them credit for that. But are they battle worthy and not prone to jamming is another issue!!
If PAF gets J10C instead of EFs i will still be happy.

you're just speculating, at best you could say western countries have decades of experience to design/develop electronic subsystems for its jets, but don't underestimate China They have both (western/Eastern (Russian)) technologies/concepts to develops it subsystems for its latest fighter jets

 

[Invicta]

On another note there is news coming out that the Luftwaffe has declined to take on the F-35 to replace their Tornadoes. They instead want to go with new Typhoons and F-18/F-18 growler combination. So there could be an opportunity for Pakistan to get involved if the terms were right. If the germans want to place a substantial order with Pakistan included they can share the production line by using cheaper labour in Pakistan. PAC is already building airframe for JF-17 so it has some knowhow.

EFT extremely expensive jet 150 million of $$$, and how do you know that J-10C legged decades behind any western jets, you're speculate ceaselessly without knowing capabilities of Chinese Aviation industries, and IF we buy EFT from EU most probably it will have strings with it, Just like our F-16

With the current economic scenario, firms will be looking to cut their losses and defence cuts will be pretty uniform across the board in Europe. This is the best time to get involved and try and get a deal because the respective industries would like to keep their assembly lines open and project free of internal defence cuts. So there is a good chance you can get EFT without any strings attached. This will depend on PAF and Pakistan Government ministers/departments who will be negotiating the deal, if they are any good they can use the current scenario to their advantage.

 

[mingle]

On another note there is news coming out that the Luftwaffe has declined to take on the F-35 to replace their Tornadoes. They instead want to go with new Typhoons and F-18/F-18 growler combination. So there could be an opportunity for Pakistan to get involved if the terms were right. If the germans want to place a substantial order with Pakistan included they can share the production line by using cheaper labour in Pakistan. PAC is already building airframe for JF-17 so it has some knowhow.



With the current economic scenario, firms will be looking to cut their losses and defence cuts will be pretty uniform across the board in Europe. This is the best time to get involved and try and get a deal because the respective industries would like to keep their assembly lines open and project free of internal defence cuts. So there is a good chance you can get EFT without any strings attached. This will depend on PAF and Pakistan Government ministers/departments who will be negotiating the deal, if they are any good they can use the current scenario to their advantage.

If Trump got info Pak going to buy EF he will kidnap Pak like masks for F15 E which has same engine like F16s same weapon package like F16 easy to integrate than any European platform

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

you're just speculating, at best you could say western countries have decades of experience to design/develop electronic subsystems for its jets, but don't underestimate China They have both (western/Eastern (Russian)) technologies/concepts to develops it subsystems for its latest fighter jets

Good and comprehensive reply. I have some mature Chinese friends in UK with whom i discuss in length Pak/China and strategic matters. They are the ones that admitted regarding Engine core technology China still lags behind Western Engines by 20 years. The US and the West have a monopoly on certain metals and alloys and guard them with their life. South Africa is one of their primary source and no other nation has access to them.
We have seen in Operation Retort that F16s were at the forefront in interception rather than the Jf17s in a high net centric jamming environment. And the missiles that were used were Amraans rather than the Sd10s. It also demonstrates that PAF was more confident in US/Western hardware!!!

 

[Invicta]

If Trump got info Pak going to buy EF he will kidnap Pak like masks for F15 E which has same engine like F16s same weapon package like F16 easy to integrate than any European platform

Yes fine but how will he get congress to approve the sale, US congress is in bed with Indian lobby. He can say all he want Pakistan needs to get out of US camp as quickly as it can. EU is the next best step. The only country that you might think will try the sanction route on EFT is UK. Considering the state the defence industry is in, no UK government in their right mind would sanction any of their defence clients.

Good and comprehensive reply. I have some mature Chinese friends in UK with whom i discuss in length Pak/China and strategic matters. They are the ones that admitted regarding Engine core technology China still lags behind Western Engines by 20 years. The US and the West have a monopoly on certain metals and alloys and guard them with their life. South Africa is one of their primary source and no other nation has access to them.
We have seen in Operation Retort that F16s were at the forefront in interception rather than the Jf17s in a high net centric jamming environment. And the missiles that were used were Amraans rather than the Sd10s. It also demonstrates that PAF was more confident in US/Western hardware!!!

You are spot on, metallurgy in Asian countries is so far behind its laughable. The only material strides China has made so far are whats been handed to them on a plate. They need to refine and develop their engines first with same performance as the EU/USA engines then you feel free to buy chinese stuff whenever you want.

That could take decades, metallurgy is complex and nations have spent decades researching different alloys and testing them in different applications so China has a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Good and comprehensive reply. I have some mature Chinese friends in UK with whom i discuss in length Pak/China and strategic matters. They are the ones that admitted regarding Engine core technology China still lags behind Western Engines by 20 years. The US and the West have a monopoly on certain metals and alloys and guard them with their life. South Africa is one of their primary source and no other nation has access to them.
We have seen in Operation Retort that F16s were at the forefront in interception rather than the Jf17s in a high net centric jamming environment. And the missiles that were used were Amraans rather than the Sd10s. It also demonstrates that PAF was more confident in US/Western hardware!!!

And PAF also used JF-17 in strike Package on 27/2/2019, which is more dangerous mission than F-16 doing CAPs deep inside Pakistani airspace,
and as for Chinese Engines, they catching fast within 20/25 year Chinese are on par with USA in engine development fields and may surpassed EU in engine development fields

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I am again going to approach this subject theoretically. Wars are too unpredictable to bet on a set of skirmishes. For smaller forces like PAF, it makes little sense to hope for such tactics against a bigger and better-equipped opponent. Probability of achieving limited gains might be low while probabilities of gradual attrition and depletion of resource could be relatively higher. For instance, India lost 2 to 3 aerial assets on 27th Feb 2019 and wasted a perfectly good bomb on 26th Feb 2019 (though this is a bad example as it took place during a limited conflict). It appears that the PAF & PN have always realized this fact all to well and have fully utilized their assets against the enemy in the wars they have fought, and that too to the best of their ability. In the end, whatever type/scale of conflict is, Pakistan needs to ensure that it dictates the rules of escalation and dominates the escalation ladder.

Keeping things constant, I do not see how the PAAC would be able to sustain air operations against Indian forces, given its meagre resources. All we can hope for is a miracle from Allah SWT - that's true in all case. The attack helicopter thing needs to be sorted out quickly. But even then so, PA will always require CAS from PAF. PAF is the only force that complements the other two wings of the Pakistani military. Yet while the PN until recently has been continuously thrown under the bus PAF has been forced to depend on 2nd hand, cheap, or free stuff - which are in fact not free at all (some have been paid for by blood). I would say again, carry out austerity within institutions for force modernization. Equip PAF with a quality fighter aircraft that would serve in the lead role for the next 20-25 years and begin complementing AZM as it replaces it in the lead role, provided AZM is successful. It appears that PAC is prioritising improving JF-17's A2G capability. I would stick to that instead of looking into dedicated fighter-bomber like JH-7 as some members have suggested.

The austerity question is serious. Not to detract too much, but at some point, someone needs to ask about military-run enterprises, housing schemes, salary/pensions, etc. In foreign currency terms it may not matter as much, but the use of local resources can have an impact on Pakistanis (e.g., folks in Karachi were complaining about everything from DHA to how the Rangers/Army took over plots in the city, causing housing prices to go up). Those impacts can translate into macro-economic issues, especially if stuff like rent seeking, resource appropriation, bad or poor incentives, opportunity costs (esp. with generals who don't have solid business acumen spend time running HIT, POF, etc) and so many other cost issues are involved. Thousands of little things can add up.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

engine development fields and may surpassed EU in engine development fields

Never going to happen not this century.

metallurgy in Asian countries is so far behind its laughable. The only material strides China has made so far are whats been handed to them on a plate.

Exactly,all Russian and Chinese Engines of the past were copies of redundant Western Engines.

hat could take decades, metallurgy is complex and nations have spent decades researching different alloys and testing them in different applications so China has a lot of catching up to do.

100% correct

 

[mingle]

Yes fine but how will he get congress to approve the sale, US congress is in bed with Indian lobby. He can say all he want Pakistan needs to get out of US camp as quickly as it can. EU is the next best step. The only country that you might think will try the sanction route on EFT is UK. Considering the state the defence industry is in, no UK government in their right mind would sanction any of their defence clients.



You are spot on, metallurgy in Asian countries is so far behind its laughable. The only material strides China has made so far are whats been handed to them on a plate. They need to refine and develop their engines first with same performance as the EU/USA engines then you feel free to buy chinese stuff whenever you want.

That could take decades, metallurgy is complex and nations have spent decades researching different alloys and testing them in different applications so China has a lot of catching up to do.

Americans are pure businessmen when it comes to money they all the same congress shouldn't be problem Boeing is desperate last time they approved F16 s many times including 8 which Trump stopped

 

[Invicta]

Americans are pure businessmen when it comes to money they all the same congress shouldn't be problem Boeing is desperate last time they approved F16 s many times including 8 which Trump stopped

They are pure businessmen, but by screwing Pakistan they get a bigger slice in the Indian arms market. So use it to get something that will surely send shivers down the IAF. I am a big fan of EFT so maybe thats why I am biased but I think now more than ever is the best opportunity for PAF to go for these. They fit in nicely and PAF will for once have a platform where it can genuinely back PN in operations.

 

[mingle]

They are pure businessmen, but by screwing Pakistan they get a bigger slice in the Indian arms market. So use it to get something that will surely send shivers down the IAF. I am a big fan of EFT so maybe thats why I am biased but I think now more than ever is the best opportunity for PAF to go for these. They fit in nicely and PAF will for once have a platform where it can genuinely back PN in operations.

True with COVID crisis I believe Pak should look into EF option too if loans are available we add them in small badges.
Americans were hoping bigger pie of slice in Indian market but India don't buy any offensive platform they were hoping F16s india didn't buy except few Helis and transport yes P8s reason Americans treatment with Pak India don't trust them in critical techs that why they buy expensive French

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I am again going to approach this subject theoretically. Wars are too unpredictable to bet on a set of skirmishes. For smaller forces like PAF, it makes little sense to hope for such tactics against a bigger and better-equipped opponent. Probability of achieving limited gains might be low while probabilities of gradual attrition and depletion of resource could be relatively higher. For instance, India lost 2 to 3 aerial assets on 27th Feb 2019 and wasted a perfectly good bomb on 26th Feb 2019 (though this is a bad example as it took place during a limited conflict). It appears that the PAF & PN have always realized this fact all to well and have fully utilized their assets against the enemy in the wars they have fought, and that too to the best of their ability. In the end, whatever type/scale of conflict is, Pakistan needs to ensure that it dictates the rules of escalation and dominates the escalation ladder.

Keeping things constant, I do not see how the PAAC would be able to sustain air operations against Indian forces, given its meagre resources. All we can hope for is a miracle from Allah SWT - that's true in all case. The attack helicopter thing needs to be sorted out quickly. But even then so, PA will always require CAS from PAF. PAF is the only force that complements the other two wings of the Pakistani military. Yet while the PN until recently has been continuously thrown under the bus PAF has been forced to depend on 2nd hand, cheap, or free stuff - which are in fact not free at all (some have been paid for by blood). I would say again, carry out austerity within institutions for force modernization. Equip PAF with a quality fighter aircraft that would serve in the lead role for the next 20-25 years and begin complementing AZM as it replaces it in the lead role, provided AZM is successful. It appears that PAC is prioritising improving JF-17's A2G capability. I would stick to that instead of looking into dedicated fighter-bomber like JH-7 as some members have suggested.

Hi,
In my opinion PAF will not continue to acquire J-10 or any other 4th generation fighter from China but procure only 5th generation technology. However what PAF is currently looking for is more sophisticated 3D printers and higher quality processing machineries for aluminium, carbon and others so that better, stronger and stealther designed aircraft can be produced under the AZM project.

Moreover PAF will never put all her eggs in one basket as was the case in 1965. Though we know that China is a far more dependable friend than the USA but still PAF will not take that chance again. Pakistan paid a very heavy price for this mistake.

There are many who would oppose my opinion on the pretext that there are non availability of funds, yet they will not deny the fact that keeping all the eggs in one basket could be a costly mistake and that too the second time.

On another note there is news coming out that the Luftwaffe has declined to take on the F-35 to replace their Tornadoes. They instead want to go with new Typhoons and F-18/F-18 growler combination. So there could be an opportunity for Pakistan to get involved if the terms were right. If the germans want to place a substantial order with Pakistan included they can share the production line by using cheaper labour in Pakistan. PAC is already building airframe for JF-17 so it has some knowhow.

Hi,
Tornado replacement will not effect sales to PAF unless and until Germany decides to upgrade their entire fleet of existing EFT's. The Germans should have gone for the Gripen rather than the F-15 and F-18 with EJ200 engines to compliment the existing EFT. But then this is not what we are discussing.

At present there are over 150 EFT Trench 1 available in the market. Over 200 trench 2 and 3 are on orders this does not include the German orders so incase those air forces who operate the trench 1 start to upgrade them to trench 2 will probably require an other facility. This was the very reason Turkey wanted to procure EFT but that deal did not go through.

The reason was that the Turks were asked to join the European 5th gen program. There are 2 5th generation programs currently in Europe the French & German and the British & Swedish.