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PAF and The Case for Eurofighter Typhoon

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The CAS said AZM won't be a factor until 2030, at least.


Saudis rely on Washington, not Rawalpindi.


If it had been India in our situation, they would've credited the alleged Su-30MKI kill to the JF-17, precisely to give to the JF-17 a psychological edge. They would've died with that claim, even if it was a lie.

It’s not the aircraft’s prowess that we are signaling, but through transitive property of the manufacturers, playing upon India’s inferiority complex, and attempting to dissuade them from conflict.

The current BJP regime seems hell bent on testing the boundaries of anything Pakistan does to counter their plans, hence the need for the PAF to maintain a qualitative edge.

The Eurofighter as a purpose built flanker killer, designed primarily for the air to air role, would allow the PAF to use the latest tactics and techniques to blunt any limited warfare the Indians hope to wage, as appears to be their new strategy.

It would also be a useful technological bridge for Project AZM and the upgrading of the JF-17 fleet

Although all of this is a moot point if we don’t get our economy going and growing again. For the next few years we should only upgrade the mirages and build block 3 JF-17s and buy any F-16s if done through CSF money.
 
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Waste of money, since France will never approve Meteor sale to Pak and US will never approve AIM-120D to Pak (assuming it even gets integrated to EFT).
So at most Pak might get US approval for US AIM-120C which is not worth spending 4+ billion dollar on a new fighter.

Their was a chance of France approving Meteors for PAF but the mpments passed once IAF gave written word to MBDA it will procure 400-500 Meteors over the years.
Never say never.

Not only did US approve AIM 120 C5 but it upgraded and added to Pakistani AF capability from CSF funds. That means Pakistan did not spend a dime and got, so far, unmatched missile capability in the region. US knew well that India did not have missiles that outrange the C5.

It would be a mistake to assume that nations don't have interests of their own.

Although all of this is a moot point if we don’t get our economy going and growing again. For the next few years we should only upgrade the mirages and build block 3 JF-17s and buy any F-16s if done through CSF money.
COVID has essentially absorbed and frozen any uncommitted defence budgets in most countries for 5 years. Most countries will use all the money they have to recover economy and build state capacities for future epi/pandemics.

Pakistan is a military state and so its military may still be able to exact high budgets but even in your country, expect defence money to be much more contested than it ever was before.
 
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I sense there's an urge for a Western fighter. So, why not just wait for the Turks or South Africans to complete their new BVRAAM projects? I say this because once those AAMs come alive, the PAF can acquire Westernized JF-17 variants (with approved British/European radars, avionics, EW/ECM), and diversify the JF-17 stock. Sure, it isn't the best, but at least the PAF get some benefits of Western technology, but at a much lower cost.
Perhaps the Europeans would be willing to sell the systems and sub-systems being developed for the Eurofighter ECR programs.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/pre...l-details-of-new-eurofighter-ecr-concept.html

Never say never.

Not only did US approve AIM 120 C5 but it upgraded and added to Pakistani AF capability from CSF funds. That means Pakistan did not spend a dime and got, so far, unmatched missile capability in the region. US knew well that India did not have missiles that outrange the C5.

It would be a mistake to assume that nations don't have interests of their own.


COVID has essentially absorbed and frozen any uncommitted defence budgets in most countries for 5 years. Most countries will use all the money they have to recover economy and build state capacities for future epi/pandemics.

Pakistan is a military state and so its military may still be able to exact high budgets but even in your country, expect defence money to be much more contested than it ever was before.

Despite Covid, Pakistan still has to think about its survival, with the kind of government in India right now. It’s only a matter of time before that regime carries out another false flag attack and uses it to attack Pakistan, they have said as much with plans to “take back Azad Kashmir”. Hence why PAF is right to focus on upgrading the mirages and building JF-17 Block III at the current time.

the best weapon Pakistan can acquire is a stable and growing economy.
 
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Despite Covid, Pakistan still has to think about its survival, with the kind of government in India right now. It’s only a matter of time before that regime carries out another false flag attack and uses it to attack Pakistan, they have said as much with plans to “take back Azad Kashmir”. Hence why PAF is right to focus on upgrading the mirages and building JF-17 Block III at the current time.

the best weapon Pakistan can acquire is a stable and growing economy.
I am not talking about committed expenditures, which for PAF mean upgraded mirages and JF-17 but new platform additions. In most countries, COVID will lead to any discretionary military funding drying up and odds are the same will happen in Pakistan. Therefore the likelihood that PAF will be able to get new platforms, particularly western ones like Typhoon, are remote.

Please do not misunderstand my non-response to allegations of 'false flag' as an acceptance of the same. It also tells me that a discussion with you is likely not going to lead to any new insights. Thank you for your time.
 
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This bird is a BEAST.

raf-eurofighter-typhoon-2016.jpg

The good news is that France has no involvement in the project. On the flip side too many cooks spoil the broth.

Besides, we've been down this path before and lets be honest, we can't afford these on a good day.

I mean seriously, how many could we pick up (used ones)? A figure above 20, makes sense, but anything below is a waste of conversation.

If the J-10 could arm itself like this - i'd prefer we go for that. I know everyone talks that the JF-17 & J-10 are the same, but truly they aren't.

The JF-17 can't carry nearly the same kind of payload as the J-10.

The J-10's wingspan is 32 Feet & has 11 Hardpoints

The JF-17's wingspan is 31 Feet & has (only) 07 Hardpoints*.
 
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Bhaioo.
For God's sake dont open threads like these. Do you not see the financial mess we are in. Even if one talks of loans you need to remember they have to be paid back. The current situation is that without the current IMF package you will go into default.
Now when you talk about EFT, F15s or SU35s 2here do you thi k the money is going to come from. If the current mess was not enough we now have the Covid 19 to deal with. B3fore this infection goes it is seriously going to dent our economy. So let us be realistic. We MAY BE able to upgrade our M3/5s and possibly build block 3s as money has already been allocated. Beyond that only second hand frames of 16s are possible nothing more. So please be realistic and consider what is at stake here. Azm is the future and pivotal to ur long term plans. This is where we should be spending every penny we have.
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Araz,
We know that PAF has limited resources yesterday I had a discussion regarding engines in the F-16 thread. Where it came to my knowledge that the Ukrainian engine can not be procured for certain reasons. Pakistan will not be given the PW-100 engines that are being used in F-16 by the US, where as Russian and Chinese engines with adequate thrust need further development.

Considering this uncertainty what options remain with PAF? French engines that power the Rafales is out of question. Swedish Volvo engine that powers the JAS39 is an US engine licence production.
The only visible option that can be considered is the EJ200/210 which can only be procured if the JAS39 or JFT is procured.
Earlier in this thread many members have quoted Saudi's can be willing to provide the financial support if Pakistan plays the right cards. I would like to highlight the current situation and the fall of oil price over the last month or so and the position where the OPEC and Non OPEC members stand.

Yesterday around 4pm al jazeera was discussing this topic and they raised that the root cause of the fall in the oil price is not due to the demand but it is surplus input from the US shale oil production.

There is a possibility that the US President could use the leverage of widrawing form the protection accord between Saudi Arabia and USA and also sanction the 15 billion usd contract to supply the F-15 and other associated defence related products.

I dont think we can find any trace of them even in the bone yard. Maybe can get a handful from some museums.:woot:
https://www.controller.com/listings...anufacturer/north-american/model/p-51-mustang

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/manufacturer/supermarine
 
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this thread should be closed its based on some one dreams and personal opinons
 
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I agree with you ,any thing is possible with the current world disorder. Nobody imagined crude oil to go below the 20s. With the current economic mayhem specially in the western world,we should not rule out a lucrative deal regarding the Typhoon. At desperate times unthinkable things do happen!!!!
Though remember your own finances are likely to be dire as well.
Fighter acquisition from foreign sources is a Zero sum game. Suppose you acquire second hand and new Typhoons. Will IAF/ uncle Sam sit down and let you get away with superiority in theair theatre. All that will happen is IAF will have to acquire the F35 from US. So you have spent 5-10 billion of money you did not have and suddenly it has gone down the drain. On the flip side if the war comes with IAF having the Rafale and PAF lises big time(Allah Na Karay) the nuclear threshold gets lowered.
In JFT we have an immense opportunity to develop this platform further improve our net centricity and situational awareness and let the games begin. If we are really losing out the only solution if a western platform is not available is the J20/31. As to SU35, I opined many a months ago that it is only worth while if the Red bear allows integration of a Chinese AESA and weapons suite. That did not happen and so we are back to where we were.
People need to understand that pressure on PAF to counter IAF alleged superiority will lead to a more concerted effort towards our own 5th generation fighter.
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Though remember your own finances are likely to be dire as well.
Fighter acquisition from foreign sources is a Zero sum game. Suppose you acquire second hand and new Typhoons. Will IAF/ uncle Sam sit down and let you get away with superiority in theair theatre. All that will happen is IAF will have to acquire the F35 from US. So you have spent 5-10 billion of money you did not have and suddenly it has gone down the drain. On the flip side if the war comes with IAF having the Rafale and PAF lises big time(Allah Na Karay) the nuclear threshold gets lowered.
In JFT we have an immense opportunity to develop this platform further improve our net centricity and situational awareness and let the games begin. If we are really losing out the only solution if a western platform is not available is the J20/31. As to SU35, I opined many a months ago that it is only worth while if the Red bear allows integration of a Chinese AESA and weapons suite. That did not happen and so we are back to where we were.
People need to understand that pressure on PAF to counter IAF alleged superiority will lead to a more concerted effort towards our own 5th generation fighter.
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IMO ... the point of a modern fighter is to deploy modern capabilities. If the JF-17 is doing just that (e.g., with the KLJ-7A AESA radar ... or even Grifo-E if the PAF opts for it), then why pursue another type in limited numbers? We should focus on acquiring as many JF-17s, i.e., crank up the annual roll-out. Moreover, work with whoever's willing (likely just China, maybe Turkey/RSA down the line) to provide the JF-17 with good AAMs.

With enough JF-17s -- and the right kind of munitions, especially SOWs like Raptor III and Ra'ad II -- the PAF can still inflict considerable conventional damage. Sure, it may struggle against other fighters, but with SOWs, it could at least hit ground targets. Moreover, with serviceable AESA radars, EW/ECM and a PL-15E-like AAM, it could still be a threat in the air, and by the dozens (if not 100+).

The situation at that point is so unprecedented, two professional and networked air forces will collide, basically. IMO, at that point, neither side will seriously want to be the aggressor.

Finally, with Project Azm, we can make a case that the PAF could gradually build a large fleet over the long-term. No matter how expensive it is, our industry would benefit for even an incremental order.

It's time we stick to what we have, expand upon it (to support our local economic base as much as we can). And for the future, focus on developing the necessary industrial inputs to both source next-gen weapons locally, and in all seriousness, improve our economy and its ability to generate revenue for the state.
 
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I sense there's an urge for a Western fighter. So, why not just wait for the Turks or South Africans to complete their new BVRAAM projects? I say this because once those AAMs come alive, the PAF can acquire Westernized JF-17 variants (with approved British/European radars, avionics, EW/ECM), and diversify the JF-17 stock. Sure, it isn't the best, but at least the PAF get some benefits of Western technology, but at a much lower cost.
And what is wrong with PL15? Why is a single weapon sending shudders down the spines of all these arm chair Generals? Bhai we spent a decade with 3rd generation planes non upgraded F16s and no BVR. WE ARE NOT IN THE 90s any more. There are options in the ball park figure. Cost of acquisition of one Rafale /EFT can get you 3 fully loaded JFTs block 3. PAF has always relied on better training more dedicated manpower and its faith in Allah. That is more than all the fighters combined. I personally think we are doing a huge disservice by underestimating our own fighter and going for a dream which to me remains unachievable. I dont say do not evaluate other options but in the current environment things are likely to be tough for the whole world much less Pakistan. Lets get on top of this crisis then induct JFT and then re evaluate your position. I strongly suspect this is the David that you are looking for to kill the mighty Goliath.
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The Egyptian have, they can pick and choose any fighter they want!!!!
With all due respect buying multiple platforms from different sources is a disaster in the making. To some extent I understand why but Infrastructure build up is going to be a headache. This is not how I would do things although I wish the Egyptian brothers the best of luck.
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