Ottomans - defenders of Islam

[Indus Pakistan]

The first non Europeans to crack this 'nut' was the Japanese. When Japan was humiliated and forced to open itself in 1853 by US Navy guns under Commodore Perry the Japanese faced the reality that they were backward and Americans we advanced. They figured out the Westerners were not advanced because of any endogenous reason to do with their genetics, or the air they breathed or the soil they lived on. The figured out that the West had developed a recipe - a way of thinking and all the culture that went with it.

So what did Japanese do? Apply even more of their failed traditions? Or adapt the recipe of the West? Wll we know what they did. Overnight Japanese copied en bloc Western modes and mindset. They were "Westoxified" for lack of better word forcefully.

The Bakumatsu period before 1853 or taditional Japan.

Post Westernization

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/japan_1750_meiji.htm

@TurkeyForever I think I don't need to post pictures of Turkey before Attaturk (traditional) and after Ataturk (westernization) do I? Clothing, writing, thinking, everything changed. Today your reaping the harvest. It ain;t the genetics. It's history and willingness to move forward with the times.

Evolve. Improvise.

 

[SALMAN F]

Indeed. They all follow Islamic principles but for most muslims,introspection is a very hard thing to do,it's easier to blame others for your failures.

And they call for the khilafa and jihad but when the likes of al Qaeda and isis establish the khilafa and declare jihad you see them yelling and screaming and saying they have nothing to do with Sunni Islam

 

[MultaniGuy]

The first non Europeans to crack this 'nut' was the Japanese. When Japan was humiliated and forced to open itself in 1853 by US Navy guns under Commodore Perry the Japanese faced the reality that they were backward and Americans we advanced. They figured out the Westerners were not advanced because of any endogenous reason to do with their genetics, or the air they breathed or the soil they lived on. The figured out that the West had developed a recipe - a way of thinking and all the culture that went with it.

So what did Japanese do? Apply even more of their failed traditions? Or adapt the recipe of the West? Wll we know what they did. Overnight Japanese copied en bloc Western modes and mindset. They were "Westoxified" for lack of better word forcefully.

The Bakumatsu period before 1853 or taditional Japan.

Post Westernization

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/japan_1750_meiji.htm

@TurkeyForever I think I don't need to post pictures of Turkey before Attaturk (traditional) and after Ataturk (westernization) do I? Clothing, writing, thinking, everything changed. Today your reaping the harvest. It ain;t the genetics. It's history and willingness to move forward with the times.

Evolve. Improvise.

There is nothing wrong in wearing traditional clothing.

Japanese women still wear Kimono.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Japanese women still wear Kimono.

I know.

There is nothing wrong in wearing traditional clothing.

True but the mentality that clutches on to such traditions is the problem.

 

[saiyan0321]

So what did Japanese do? Apply even more of their failed traditions? Or adapt the recipe of the West? Wll we know what they did. Overnight Japanese copied en bloc Western modes and mindset. They were "Westoxified" for lack of better word forcefully.

Actually despite the bombing Japan was still not completely open to change. The Tokugawa govt was stagnant and the joi ( anti foreigner faction) were gaining strength. More than this, the biggest event that changed the Japanese mindset was the chosu event.

Takasugi shinsaku played an important role for this change. Its quite fascinating.

You see he saw the colonial mindset of the west and became assured that if Japan did not change then no doubt Japan too would be colonized or suffer similar humiliations that China had to go through. Infact his visits to China enlightened him to this fact.

Although he created a joi faction his mindset was clearly changed when the bombardment of Shimonoseki happened. Although Japan proves their own resourcefullness of having made an steam engine after having it seen only a decade before by perry but the traditional smaurais lost to the French marines and the superior fighting technique of the west. This had massive impact.

A. In takasugi eyes that Japan was clearly very much behind the west and to beat the west it would have to learn from them.

B. By learning and implementing the western advancement, Japan could stand in front of the colonists and would be able to guarantee its own freedom.

C. The joi faction extremism of anything foreign was wrong and only by learning from them can we beat them.

This had a major impact bcz the chosu domain allowed takasugi to implement military reforms where he created a rifle unit. With this unit the kehitai was able to deal four major victories against the bakufu in the Japan civil war of 1868-69 and the Meiji restoration.

Image you posted was of the chosu domain alliance with the satsuma faction under the mediation of kido takayoshi.

Infact the difference between the weaponry of chosu and satsuma was such that they were completely modernized on par with the west with only a few years of military reforms of takasugi and the Tokugawa shogunate lacked equipment and weaponry and the result was Meiji restoration and the the rise of imperial Japan and imperial Japanese forces.


You the point is that Japanese immediately saw the threat of the colonials and their naval power and military advancement and they used their advancement against the west to become a power house. Where as the subcontinent failed entirely.

I mean you had commodore perry incident in 1853 and the bombardment in 1863 for the Japanese to realize how they were simply not good enough to face the west. Result that in 1894 when we weren't even politically aware the Japan won the first sino-japanese war and in 1903 they gave Russia, the largest empire at that time, a bloody nose the likes of it the west had not gotten from the east in modern times. That's what 40 years for them to become such a power.


The idea is to change, learn and adapt. You can wear loongis as long as one can learn why is the enemy so advanced and how can we make ourselves advanced. The Japanese proved that the reason why most of the world was colonized was bcz the world was weak and simply could not adapt.


We are like that as well. We don't adapt. For God's sake if the mullah of ottoman were giving fatwa against printing machine then how the hell would we advance.

 

[Arefin007]

All of these groups you mentioned are muslim and the west have nothing to do with them

cia gave support to al qaeda isis fighters to counter russian influence in afghenistan syria. usa sponsored foreign fighters and gave them weapons money during afghan war to use violent jihad against the soviets it later backfired on them. so yes west is involved they arent angels

 

[SALMAN F]

cia gave support to al qaeda isis fighters to counter russian influence in afghenistan syria. usa sponsored foreign fighters and gave them weapons money during afghan war to use violent jihad against the soviets it later backfired on them. so yes west is involved they arent angels

Jihad ideology is old as Islam it self before America,England,France and Israel existed

 

[Arefin007]

Jihad ideology is old as Islam it self before America,England,France and Israel existed

people fight for land and people fight to protect their faith because its important to them. combative jihad is allowed under specific circumstances self-defense but modern day terrorists are inspired by ekhwan its not the same

 

[SALMAN F]

people fight for land and people fight to protect their faith because its important to them. combative jihad is allowed under specific circumstances self-defense but modern day terrorists are inspired by ekhwan its not the same

Don't try to fool us tge so called jihad is terrorism,invasions,killing,massacres, slaverly,colonization,occupation and forced labor

There are no difference between abu bakir al siddiq and abu bakr al baghdadi

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Possibly all the three things you mentioned. But have a look at your own country. Look how it has changed profoundly in the last three decades. Point being is when a society evolves [I mean vast majority of the people] then progress ensues. The recipe for success is the same. And those who adopt it begin to show similar manifestation. You can call that "recipe" what ever - "Western", "Modernism" etc but the effects are same be it Japanese, South Koreans, Singaporans and of late you guys - the Turks. And you get progress which is why your country has shot forward.

Then you have Pakistan where most people still have not adopted the modern way of thinking [there are individual exceptions but the majority are still stuck in the past traditions] and the result is retarded development. You can even send Pakistanis to Europe like our friend @Azadkashmir here but they just bring that retarded thinking with them. They can't figure out that Pakistan is in the craps because of the mindset of the people.

The causes are endogenous to Pakistani culture and thinking. Tht is why we became slaves to British during the colonial era. But here is the craziness. Instead of fixing that mindset by moving forward and adopting the recipe of success they instead want to drink even more doses of the recipe that fcuked us up in the first place.

That is why your chilling in Turkey. The Arab is the migrant in Turkey. I am migrant in UK. AzadKashmir is son of migrant in UK. When we adopt your mindset Pakistan will become another Turkey but we are going to have to wait for another generation or two for oafs like AK to become minority or get wiped out. In the meantime we suffer.

But don't forget it took you decades from a journey began by Ataturk in 1920 before you finally reached your destination - success.

You are right about the recipe, but missing the biggest problem, that is enviroment.

The development in Germany and South Korea versus in Pakistan and Muslim geography cannot be explianed by the recipe,but enviroment in the global order.

That is why Pakistan will century(ies) stay still( at best case) like many countries in the world.

Proof: Turkey started to fast develop right after beating the world order in the first place, unlike today thanks to Erdoğan.