Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA

[Jade]

This is IMO a political decision, because technically I do not think rafale is better than EF. Anyways congrats to indians for finally raising the curtain...

It was not a political decision, else F18 would have won. Both EF and Rafale are equally capable planes, although EF could be slightly better. EF is better for A2A, while Rafale is good in A2G. Already India has MKI, a air superiority jet, so Rafale complements MKI better than EF. Again IAF experience with Mirage would help Rafale integration into IAF tighter. Although, I have to say the decision was based on price/unit

 

[Yeti]

Rafale was cheaper per unit and India already operate the Mirages so that was a big factor. Technology transfer with full source codes will come with the package.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Dassault's Rafale wins $10.4 billion Indian Air Force fighter deal: Report : North News - India Today

French Dassault Rafale fighter is on course to win India's biggest defence deal ever as it has been judged the cheaper of the two finalists for a contract that could be worth up to $20 billion for 126 aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) .

The decision on medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition has been one of the most feverishly anticipated ones in recent aerospace contracting history and is a watershed for the world weapons market.

The Rafale, built by French firm Dassault Aviation, has never been exported by the country before, making India the first export customer of the highly capable fighter jet. It saw recent operational action in Libya and has served in Afghanistan as well.

The announcement, made on Tuesday, comes as a huge relief to the French government and Dassault Aviation which had worried about expensive fighter programme which found no takers no matter how hard they tried to sell it around the world.

India's decision was a massive affirmation of the aircraft and its capabilities and would be seen as a huge boost to the beleaguered Rafale programme.

The Indian government would now negotiate with the French to arrive at the best possible price for 126 fighters. A deal would be signed before the end of March this year.

Eurofighter Typhoon was the other final contender in the race for the country's biggest defence deal. In April 2011, as reported by Headlines Today, four other contenders were eliminated from the competition in a shock setback for the companies involved.

Those to be dropped from the reckoning included Sweden's Saab (Gripen), American firms Boeing and Lockheed-Martin with the F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Super Viper respectively and Russia's MiG-35.


Read more at:Dassault's Rafale wins $10.4 billion Indian Air Force fighter deal: Report : North News - India Today

 

[Mani2020]

the internet is buzzing with the news (not officially confirmed) that the IAF has selected Rafale as its MMRCA.

what options PAF and its planners can come up with now that the IAF has chosen this advanced platform?

Lets face the truth we have no cash to match with the rapid modernization of indian defence forces .... they are playing their cards right along with the money its the brain that needs to work... we had the luxury of US , France and other western nations for almost 50 years but we didnt took the advantage and never played our cards right ...also thanks to our economy and doomed democracy cum dictatorship ...and they got just 10 years of luxury to be the customer of west and they showed us how to play the cards rightly .....

We have no option other then to play around with fc-20 ...the only thing we can do is modifying the fc-20 to make it par with the selected aircraft with best options we have.... but the hindrance remains the same i.e money ....Jf-17 block 2 and 3 is still long way away may be the former one is nearer then anticipated but the later one seems to be long away

 

[SQ8]

Similarly, as the Eurofighter consortium would be sitting idle after filling their existing customers, PAF can approach their avionics......like Thales/BAE systes etc for upgrade to JF-17s avionics.

Also, Italians are not out of the equation yet...only French.

---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------




Okay so i hid my message pretty well in my post....but what i meant was, if inflation has taken the toll, then why not on the increasing costs of the VIP expenses, BMWs and Golf Courses.

If you know what i mean.

First.. the JF-17's avionics are fairly satisfactory.. infact.. more than satisfactory as far as the PAF is concerned.
The europeans arent all out of the game yet.. MBDA is a major supplier for the Rafale's weapons and will send a fair share of profits to the EU's way.


As for the second part.. that is being slowly cut down now.. as some sense has been knocked into the PAF leadership.
However.. there are still unanswered blackholes in our military's budget..

 

[Chanakyaa]

First.. the JF-17's avionics are fairly satisfactory.. infact.. more than satisfactory as far as the PAF is concerned.
The europeans arent all out of the game yet.. MBDA is a major supplier for the Rafale's weapons and will send a fair share of profits to the EU's way.


As for the second part.. that is being slowly cut down now.. as some sense has been knocked into the PAF leadership.
However.. there are still unanswered blackholes in our military's budget..

To be Honest The Picture is NOT that Optimistic.

1. No American F16s
2. No French Avionics ( I heard PAK have no satifaction in Chines Ones... though they were cheaper )
3. No French Subs
4. No Money
5. No Qualified/Competent Leadership

The Only Option for 1+2+3+4+5 = Chinese

Now Plz be Honest And Ask Yourself if things are really satisfactory.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Aamir,

PN was not after French subs.....wasn't it the type 214? Or maybe you meant the Agosta 90s? I mean, PN can still procure from the Germans.

Similarly, as the Eurofighter consortium would be sitting idle after filling their existing customers, PAF can approach their avionics......like Thales/BAE systes etc for upgrade to JF-17s avionics.

Also, Italians are not out of the equation yet...only French.

---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------




Okay so i hid my message pretty well in my post....but what i meant was, if inflation has taken the toll, then why not on the increasing costs of the VIP expenses, BMWs and Golf Courses.

If you know what i mean.

D'tello:

Missed my point 3a. The Italian connection is there. Yes the Euro /Thales option would be an interesting development.

If PN was thinking of building more A90B's (modified). than that as an option ssems less likely now.

 

[jha]

they are not kids as we are . they first look are they really need it? its suitable for there doctrine ? is there same capable jet with less price ? what is future of this 40 years deal? then they pic it . what if we pic it and after WOT we become under sanctions and these birds just sit idle on ground? there is so many factors then dick measure with indians for PAF or GOP before buy a jet .and a country has no full mission ko buy jets and jets they have so many other things to do .

or they must but it for make us proud on defence.pk ?

Best Comment of the thread...

Would like to add some more things... L1 is not the sole criteria on which Rafale has been selected. France has sweetened the deal by offering so much under the table that it was impossible to resist.
Plus Germany did not help it when they refused to supply guns to police force of two states on the grounds of Human right violations. Now that India has money and spend and options on the table, chances of a sanction prone plane being selected was pretty less...

 

[Tshering22]

PAF made the selection long before MRCA was selected. I thought PAF had already made its mind for the JF-17 and the J-10B. . Please confirm.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I have said this before and will repeat again..... moving on from the very convenient option of A-5s/F-7s, the PAF can now deploy some four or five JF-17s for the price of a single Rafle.
Dollar for Dollar, you can launch a whole squadron of 16 Thunders to counter an attack by say 4 Rafales.
Even if 50% of each attacking force is taken out, it's no rocket science to conclude, who will still be able to inflict more damage.

It is not rocket science either to see that the IAF is more than likely to induct 200+ MMRCA which is more than the number of JFT PAF is looking to induct so the numerical advantage argument is out not to mention of course the quality is on MMRCA's side so you'd be looking at 350-450 JFTs to counter MMRCA, maybe 200 Chinese 5th gen (whenever this happens). Additonally the IAF also has/is getting 300+ MKI and 150+ LCA (Mk.1 + 2) and at least 3 SQD (of a 250 unit order) of FGFA 5th gen fighters by the end of the decade.


I'd love to see what members would suggest for PAF to counter this.

 

[Imran Khan]

PAF made the selection long before MRCA was selected. I thought PAF had already made its mind for the JF-17 and the J-10B. . Please confirm.

at this time its cleared and they are more then happy on it .as they start project they was clear mind abut future .there is not gonna change but now it will be game of j-18 or j-20 next

 

[Tshering22]

Lets face the truth we have no cash to match with the rapid modernization of indian defence forces .... they are playing their cards right along with the money its the brain that needs to work

Are you kidding me?! We are decades behind our modernization program! The ruling governments in last 4 terms was supposed to have started replacing our jets. IAF was supposed to be flying the replacements since at least 2-3 years ago. But it is selected now while it would take another 2-3 years before 2-3 squadrons can come up. It would take at least upto 2020 if HAL makes it. I hope Dassault makes the jets and we just make around 50 or something. We cannot put Rafale hostage to HAL's already high workload. They are already working with more than 4 projects at hand.

... we had the luxury of US , France and other western nations for almost 50 years but we didnt took the advantage and never played our cards right ...also thanks to our economy and doomed democracy cum dictatorship ...and they got just 10 years of luxury to be the customer of west and they showed us how to play the cards rightly .....

Our economy started rising only 2000 onwards when the fruits of 1991 liberalization and relatively strong implementation policies of NDA (BJP) government started showing its colors. You had the option of Gripens and Mirages for quite long. Your generals chose F-16s always for the battle proven tag (any jet has to be first tested in a war to make it battle proven; F-16 has just seen a lot of wars compared to other jets).

We have no option other then to play around with fc-20 ...the only thing we can do is modifying the fc-20 to make it par with the selected aircraft with best options we have.... but the hindrance remains the same i.e money ....Jf-17 block 2 and 3 is still long way away may be the former one is nearer then anticipated but the later one seems to be long away

We are inducting Tejas as well.... it is a new start for us too. Every jet becomes proven only with putting it into use just like we gain experience after only repeating something for a number of years. Your air force needs to focus on other threats than us. We have proven in the last 10 years that your military is the least of our concerns and our concentration is economic enhancement.

Your choices of jets are good enough if you are willing to use them wisely. Put them to use against the enemy on the other side of the border rather than focusing all against us. Nothing will come out of it.

In fact, the first "battle proven" tag you can easily acquire; utilize these jets in strike operations against TTP and Taliban. They are a threat to your country's peace as well (which many of your people don't realize). Since both JF and J-10 are mutirole, ground ops shouldn't be a problem for them.

Solve your real problems first. Trust me, things will settle down very well for you guys as well.

Cheers.

 

[Abingdonboy]

at this time its cleared and they are more then happy on it .as they start project they was clear mind abut future .there is not gonna change but now it will be game of j-18 or j-20 next

I thought it has already been stated the PAF Couldn't afford the J-20 type ac (especially as it is twin engined) and the former is a paper plane with the second most likely being a technology demonstrator only.

 

[SBD-3]

at ~US$100m / EFT with infrastructure it looks prohibitive at best.

Aside from infrastructure, the key problem with European aircrafts is that they are in limited operation. For example to date, the only operators of rafale are French Air and Naval Force. This situation is a bit tricky in a way that french are not only known for selling expensive but being among the few customers means that effectively you have to fund the development of the program. French can always call upon Indians to say, "hey, we have so and so products to offer you for an upgrade but Indians will effectively be funding development costs, making program more expensive through its life cycle. EF had a better advantage interms of operational sustainability since it is now being operated by a lot of countries. Even I think JFTs produced in Pakistan with local gadgets would be more expensive than from platforms with Chinese systems since the PAF would be the sole bearer of development costs, probably thats why we see Chinese avionics making their way in Block II (ofcourse it can be argued that these avionics are advanced than block I, but even with that these avionics are not PAF specific and in production for PLAAF and PLAN as well, making them more affordable). Chinese have followed an unconventional development approach i.e. the development takes place at top level (J-20) and then it is injected into other platforms (J-10,J-11,J-15) so effectively there is a J-20 then J-20ish J-10 (J-10B) J-20ish J-11, J-20ish JH-7 and J-20ish J-15. I can speculate that with probable J-20ish FC-20, we can also expect J-20ish JF-17 (Clear case in point, AESA which was developed for J-20 but is speculated to have made its way in atleast J-10B, J-15 and more likely to be ending up in other platforms as well)

 

[Imran Khan]

I thought it has already been stated the PAF Couldn't afford the J-20 type ac (especially as it is twin engined) and the former is a paper plane with the second most likely being a technology demonstrator only.

so after 5 years all budget to to buy new uniforms for cadets and jet fuel for JF-17 ? don't be so smart man there is future and economy will not remain same nor it was same in past . when world leading air forces going to 5th gen PAF will stuck on jf-17 j-10 and f-10 until 2030 because we have to buy single engine