Opinionated - Rebranding the Military Establishment as the Ministry of Defence

[Falconless]

Establishment is a dirty word, so what if instead they worked under the umbrella of the ministry of defence?

Following the UK model, they could appoint serving officers as secretaries and write their own white papers and other papers to influence government policy?

Yes this would mean the minister of defence would be a civilian but I’m sure s/he would not wield much power besides shaping certain policies.

 

[Conqueror]

Establishment will not become clean by changing its name, uniforms or logos. They'll become clean because of Patriotism and Cleaner Acts.

Besides Establishment means "Mafia in power", the De Facto gang. It includes Military, Judges and Political Prostitutes.

 

[Falconless]

Establishment will not become clean by changing its nane, uniforms or logos. They'll become clean because of Patriotism and Cleaner Acts.

Besides Establishment means "Mafia in power", the De Facto gang. It includes Military, Judges and Political Prostitutes.

They will have to do something, putting them in a ministry will slowly remove them from public life.

Look at how effective it was in the UK, their militaries are invisible which wasn’t the case when the last century began.

Pakistan will need to decolonise it’s military and move it to a more service oriented role and not as one of a state institution that’s equal to Parliament or the Judiciary

 

[Flash_Ninja]

Establishment isn't just the military, its senior civil servants, high ranking officials, oligarchs, influential landowners, and social elite.

Basically the top 1% of society. The generals are the most well known because they have the most power and are the most public of them.

 

[Falconless]

Establishment isn't just the military, its senior civil servants, high ranking officials, oligarchs, influential landowners, and social elite.

Basically the top 1% of society. The generals are the most well known because they have the most power and are the most public of them.

Yes I know but this thread is more about rehabilitating the military component of this network.

 

[Azadkashmir]

They will have to do something, putting them in a ministry will slowly remove them from public life.

Look at how effective it was in the UK, their militaries are invisible which wasn’t the case when the last century began.

Pakistan will need to decolonise it’s military and move it to a more service oriented role and not as one of a state institution that’s equal to Parliament or the Judiciary

you dumb you think uk ppl dont know this type of subliminial name changing, they do very very well but media dont give them air time except youtube videos.

 

[SD 10]

Establishment is a dirty word, so what if instead they worked under the umbrella of the ministry of defence?

Following the UK model, they could appoint serving officers as secretaries and write their own white papers and other papers to influence government policy?

Yes this would mean the minister of defence would be a civilian but I’m sure s/he would not wield much power besides shaping certain policies.

no, it should work under the civilian government , that would means under the jurisdiction and complete control of ministry of defense! They are nothing more than government servants and they should never be anything above that!

 

[Flash_Ninja]

Yes I know but this thread is more about rehabilitating the military component of this network.

Even if that happens there will still be an establishment in the shadows.

 

[VCheng]

no, it should work under the civilian government , that would means under the jurisdiction and complete control of ministry of defense! They are nothing more than government servants and they should never be anything above that!

Isn't that already all in place according to the working system?

 

[Conqueror]

They will have to do something, putting them in a ministry will slowly remove them from public life.

Look at how effective it was in the UK, their militaries are invisible which wasn’t the case when the last century began.

Pakistan will need to decolonise it’s military and move it to a more service oriented role and not as one of a state institution that’s equal to Parliament or the Judiciary

We always denounced Hussain Haqqani, Hamid Mir, Altaf Hussains and likes of them who maligned Pak Army. They alleged Army instigates problems so it could benefit at the cost of the state. Today we see why they insult this institution. Today they appear right and Pak Army wrong and as if it has been the cause of problems all along.

Your interpretation that Army's open role is causing them problem is an attempt to put foil paper on stinking eggs. It may momentarily mask the filth or make us ignore it, but the filth will keep growing behind the wraps and ultimately bust open. You cannot correct problems by hiding them.

Your intention is right, but I see establishment is not looking to mask itself anymore. Rather "midnight courts" shamelessly defend their bias and army nakedly stands with Americans on this regime change. In this situation what good is "ministry of defence" going to do. People will continue to blame problems centre regardless of what it calls itself now.

 

[Darth Vader]

Re-branding works when there is a change behind it action speaks louder.

Until State ( which includes people of Pakistan) change and set the limits of Military nothing good will come out.

A Stronger Army with Deeper political ties will always mean a weaker state for the population itself.

But a stronger nation can always build a stronger armed forces for its defence.

INDIA & Regional atmosphere of region always need a stronger Military power to balance out the region, but it solely relies on Pakistan on what kind of state they want,
in current atmosphere and in near future this will not happen atleast people shouldn't expact big change soon we will start to see the decline in Pakistan's military power in around 1 decade's time which will directly impact the military presence in political affairs.

 

[Falconless]

no, it should work under the civilian government , that would means under the jurisdiction and complete control of ministry of defense! They are nothing more than government servants and they should never be anything above that!

How would one structure a ministry of defence?

Here’s my wish-list

1. All assets, pensions and promotions are handled by the MoD

2. ISPR, DGPR N and DPPR Air are merged into a MoD press office, led by a civilian who can call on secretaries from the 3 forces.

3. Joint chief of staff committee is made the command body for the forces with the Chairman coming Chief of Defence staff and commander of all forces.

4. Ministry of defence production is rolled back into the MoD.

5. PMSA and PCG are merged into one force and are made Pakistan’s 4th frontline force.

6. Pakistan Maines are remodelled the amphibious component of the navy.

7. Urban cantonments are dissolved and forces are moved barracks.

8. A defence procurement office is established to rationalise inventories and purchases. (Logistics and supply chain specialist civilians)

9. A policy research wing is established to advise the government on defence policies. (civilian led from Foreign office and Finance office)

10. An MoD accountability office is established to ensure that there’s no corruption. (Civilian led)

 

[Falconless]

It may momentarily mask the filth or make us ignore it, but the filth will keep growing behind the wraps and ultimately bust open. You cannot correct problems by hiding them.

My idea is that by forcing them to work in the confines of a ministry would limit them to inter departmental politics and civilian oversight, but this only happens once the people stand behind the state and government.

Our issue has been that the people have never taken an active role in the state leaving these colonial leftovers to run around with free reign and no consequences.

 

[R Wing]

They will have to do something, putting them in a ministry will slowly remove them from public life.

Look at how effective it was in the UK, their militaries are invisible which wasn’t the case when the last century began.

Pakistan will need to decolonise it’s military and move it to a more service oriented role and not as one of a state institution that’s equal to Parliament or the Judiciary

You must be young, so we can potentially look beyond your naivety.

Power is the only language. What makes you think they will want to be actually (not just legally, but actually) subservient to a civilian bureaucracy like the MOD? You can't even take ISI away from being army-run or empower the CJCSC --- ye kahan se hona hai.

Many things 'should' happen in Pakistan, but they can't - and won't - without a revolution and totally new social contract and constitution.