Opinionated - China Chipping Away to Semiconductor Dominance

[Paul2]

Chinese appliance giant Midea sets up semiconductor company - CnTechPost

The company was established on January 26 with a registered capital of RMB 20 million yuan ($3 million).

cntechpost.com

Chinese appliance giant Midea has invested in the establishment of a semiconductor technology company, Meiken Semiconductor Technology Co.

The company was established on January 26 with a registered capital of RMB 20 million yuan ($3 million).

The company's business scope includes electronic component manufacturing, electronic component retailing, integrated circuit chip and product manufacturing, integrated circuit chip and product sales, semiconductor discrete device manufacturing, semiconductor discrete device sales, transformer, rectifier and inductor manufacturing, integrated circuit manufacturing, and advanced power electronic device sales.

In the last decade, the semiconductor industry has become an investment hotspot in China, with Tsinghua Unigroup topping the list of the decade with a single financing amount of RMB 150 billion.

In 2020, there were 458 investment and financing events in this industry, with a total amount of RMB 109.769 billion, ranking second in both the number and amount of investment and financing in the past decade. The highest financing amount was taken by SMIC, with a total of $19.85 billion.

In a globalized world, although China uses more than half of all chips, China's own semiconductor industry is still very weak.


The compensatory development of Chinese semiconductors to ensure the security of the supply chain is indeed an important factor in this wave of semiconductor start-ups. The security of the supply chain makes the development of China's chip industry a necessity.

The future trend of a digital society constructed by AI + 5G + IoT gives nascent Chinese chip companies the possibility of development and triggers a wave of investment in the semiconductor industry.

So, waiting to hail their Ai+5g saucepan


Just wondering, what it will do?

 

[TaiShang]

So, waiting to hail their Ai+5g saucepan


Just wondering, what it will do?

Communicate with other appliances as well as the person, I guess.

Not just soucepan. Fridges, ovens, ACs, dish/washing mashines.

It is about smart home.

 

[TaiShang]

SMIC plans to expand production of 10,000 wafers on its mature 12-inch line this year - CnTechPost

SMIC plans to expand its mature 12-inch line by 10,000 wafers and its mature 8-inch line by no less than 45,000 wafers this year, according to company Co-CEOs Zhao Haijun and Mong-Song Liang.

cntechpost.com

SMIC plans to expand its mature 12-inch line by 10,000 wafers and its mature 8-inch line by no less than 45,000 wafers this year, according to company Co-CEOs Zhao Haijun and Mong-Song Liang.

The leading contract chipmaker from China said in its fourth-quarter earnings release on Thursday that the current capacity in the foundry industry is tight and demand for mature processes, in particular, remains strong, with mature capacity expected to remain full.

In order to meet customer demand, SMIC expects to spend $4.3 billion in capital expenditures this year, with most of it going to mature process expansions and a small portion to advanced processes, civil construction of new joint venture projects in Beijing, and others.

Under the influence of the US entity list, SMIC will consider strengthening the development and deployment of first and second-generation FinFETs and expanding the reliability and competitiveness of its platform.

SMIC's revenue for the fourth quarter of 2020 was $981 million, and the company reported record financial results for the year, with profit attributable to the company of $716 million, an increase of 204.9%.

Because of its inclusion on the US government's entity list, SMIC's revenue target for the first half of 2021 is approximately $2.1 billion, with a full-year gross margin target of approximately 15 percent.

(Source: Unsplash)

 

[TaiShang]

SMIC's revenue rose 10.3 percent year-on-year to RMB6.671 billion ($1.03 billion) in the fourth quarter of 2020, while gross margin fell 5.8 percentage points to 18.0 percent, the leading contract chipmaker from China said in an earnings release on Thursday.

Net income attributable to SMIC shareholders for the quarter was RMB 1.252 billion, up 93.5 percent year-on-year.

SMIC said the increase in revenue and profit in the fourth quarter was mainly due to higher revenue from increased wafer sales and higher average selling prices, increased funding for government projects, and higher investment income from investments in affiliates and financial assets.

For the full year 2020, SMIC's revenue increased by 25.4% to RMB25.250 billion and gross margin increased by 7.1 percentage points to 23.6%.

Net income attributable to SMIC shareholders for 2020 was RMB4,627 million, an increase of 204.9 percent year-over-year.

Looking ahead to the first quarter of 2021, SMIC expects revenue growth of 7-9% YoY and a gross margin of 17-19%.


SMIC stated that restrictions on the procurement of US-related products or technologies due to its inclusion on the US government's entity list have created uncertain risks to performance expectations.

SMIC's export license application also takes time and is subject to uncertainty, the company said.

Based on this, SMIC expects to target mid- to high-single-digit revenue growth (5-9 percent) for the full year of 2021.

The company expects to target revenue of about $2.1 billion in the first half of 2021, with a full-year gross margin target of mid 10-20 percent.


In addition, under the influence of the entity list, SMIC will consider strengthening the development and deployment of the first and second-generation FinFET multiplex platform and expanding the reliability and competitiveness of the platform.

SMIC's revenue up 10.3% year-on-year to $1.03 billion in Q4 - CnTechPost

Net income attributable to SMIC shareholders for the quarter was RMB 1.252 billion, up 93.5 percent year-on-year.

cntechpost.com

 

[Olli Ranta]

Sometimes you find interesting text in surprising places: From https://www.quora.com
Bora Taş on January 30 2021
Lives in The Netherlands Computer scientist/chip designer.

"United States is pressuring the Netherlands to block the sale of EUV equipment to SMIC by Dutch company ASML is ultimately affecting China's dream in technology". How long US can resist China's development?

I think I am the perfect person to answer this. I have been working in the semiconductor industry for years, currently living in the Netherlands, lived and worked in China for 3 years, I know a lot of engineers from ASML (expecially after they hired hundreds of Turkish engineers). Let me tell you something: High-end semiconductor manufacturing is black magic. Both the processes and tools used for it are very complex. ASML’s EUV lithography machine is probably the most complex tool humankind ever developed since it stopped jumping between trees. It took billions of Euros and decades of experience to perfect it. Other experienced lithography machine suppliers failed at it. China has no experience in high-end semiconductor manufacturing tools with the exception of one-off/few-off prototypes.

ASML’s EUV lithography machine. Needs 41 semi-trucks to get transported, costs $150 million, has 100.000 major parts, has mirrors that need months of grinding to reach needed smoothness, needs multiple people with PhD’s as machine operators. Quite high-tech. Isn’t it?

Unfortunately, ASML is a very convenient target for the USA. The company uses a lot of critical parts from the USA but those parts don’t represent anything significant in the US economy in terms of their monetary value. Chinese electronics industry still depends on foreign chips so it can not threaten fabs with banning the sale of chips in China that were manufactured using ASML tools. Also, China isn’t a big customer of ASML too.

Is China hopeless? No.

1- All of those tools are engineered and made by humans, and the laws of physics are the same both in the Netherlands and China. If the Netherlands could, then there is no reason for anybody else to fail with the correct approach.

2- China is filthy rich compared to the Netherlands. Chinese economy is 17x of the Netherlands’, 9x of SK’s, 27x of Taiwan’s, 3+x of Japan’s. With state support, Chinese fabs and tool makers can hire the top people from the rest of the world with salaries ASML, LamResearch, AM, Synopsys, TSMC, Samsung, … simply can not compete with. A significant portion of these companies’ employees are expats anyway, most of them are just after money. In fact China is already doing this successfully with good results. For example, it already has a working EUV lithography machine prototype, already caught up with the rest in chip testing, packaging, wafer production, also its first immersion lithography machine (good enough for most things) is getting prepared for commercial use.

3- China is a scientific powerhouse on its own. It is the country with most patent applications, most research output, graduates more STEM students than any other country, 2nd largest R&D spender, has 11 universities in top 100. This leads us to my first point. If the Netherlands could, so can China if given enough time.

4- Catching up is much easier than innovating. Knowing something is possible and having a general knowledge of how it works make things much easier.

5- Time is on the Chinese side. Technology of semiconductors is close to maturity/stalling (choose the word depending on your view). If the development slows (which it does) it gives China the opportunity to catch-up. If a tech revolution happens, then the playing field evens out anyway.

6- You don’t need EUV for the most things. You don’t even need high-end processes for the most things. There is more to semiconductors than the latest smartphone processors, GPUs, and CPUs. Look at iPhone 12 teardown videos. You will see a lot of chips. Only one of them needs EUV. An average modern car has 250+ computers inside. That means thousands of chips. All of them are manufactured using old processes. This is even more true for military and space applications. Those use very old chips that are known to be reliable and secure.

Conclusion: Blocking ASML from selling EUV machines to China can hurt Chinese businesses for some time but in the grand scheme it is insignificant. The USA needs to run faster rather than keep trying to block China if it wants to preserve its dominance in tech.

 

[Paul2]

Sometimes you find interesting text in surprising places: From https://www.quora.com
Bora Taş on January 30 2021
Lives in The Netherlands Computer scientist/chip designer.

"United States is pressuring the Netherlands to block the sale of EUV equipment to SMIC by Dutch company ASML is ultimately affecting China's dream in technology". How long US can resist China's development?

I think I am the perfect person to answer this. I have been working in the semiconductor industry for years, currently living in the Netherlands, lived and worked in China for 3 years, I know a lot of engineers from ASML (expecially after they hired hundreds of Turkish engineers). Let me tell you something: High-end semiconductor manufacturing is black magic. Both the processes and tools used for it are very complex. ASML’s EUV lithography machine is probably the most complex tool humankind ever developed since it stopped jumping between trees. It took billions of Euros and decades of experience to perfect it. Other experienced lithography machine suppliers failed at it. China has no experience in high-end semiconductor manufacturing tools with the exception of one-off/few-off prototypes.

ASML’s EUV lithography machine. Needs 41 semi-trucks to get transported, costs $150 million, has 100.000 major parts, has mirrors that need months of grinding to reach needed smoothness, needs multiple people with PhD’s as machine operators. Quite high-tech. Isn’t it?

Unfortunately, ASML is a very convenient target for the USA. The company uses a lot of critical parts from the USA but those parts don’t represent anything significant in the US economy in terms of their monetary value. Chinese electronics industry still depends on foreign chips so it can not threaten fabs with banning the sale of chips in China that were manufactured using ASML tools. Also, China isn’t a big customer of ASML too.

Is China hopeless? No.

1- All of those tools are engineered and made by humans, and the laws of physics are the same both in the Netherlands and China. If the Netherlands could, then there is no reason for anybody else to fail with the correct approach.

2- China is filthy rich compared to the Netherlands. Chinese economy is 17x of the Netherlands’, 9x of SK’s, 27x of Taiwan’s, 3+x of Japan’s. With state support, Chinese fabs and tool makers can hire the top people from the rest of the world with salaries ASML, LamResearch, AM, Synopsys, TSMC, Samsung, … simply can not compete with. A significant portion of these companies’ employees are expats anyway, most of them are just after money. In fact China is already doing this successfully with good results. For example, it already has a working EUV lithography machine prototype, already caught up with the rest in chip testing, packaging, wafer production, also its first immersion lithography machine (good enough for most things) is getting prepared for commercial use.

3- China is a scientific powerhouse on its own. It is the country with most patent applications, most research output, graduates more STEM students than any other country, 2nd largest R&D spender, has 11 universities in top 100. This leads us to my first point. If the Netherlands could, so can China if given enough time.

4- Catching up is much easier than innovating. Knowing something is possible and having a general knowledge of how it works make things much easier.

5- Time is on the Chinese side. Technology of semiconductors is close to maturity/stalling (choose the word depending on your view). If the development slows (which it does) it gives China the opportunity to catch-up. If a tech revolution happens, then the playing field evens out anyway.

6- You don’t need EUV for the most things. You don’t even need high-end processes for the most things. There is more to semiconductors than the latest smartphone processors, GPUs, and CPUs. Look at iPhone 12 teardown videos. You will see a lot of chips. Only one of them needs EUV. An average modern car has 250+ computers inside. That means thousands of chips. All of them are manufactured using old processes. This is even more true for military and space applications. Those use very old chips that are known to be reliable and secure.

Conclusion: Blocking ASML from selling EUV machines to China can hurt Chinese businesses for some time but in the grand scheme it is insignificant. The USA needs to run faster rather than keep trying to block China if it wants to preserve its dominance in tech.

You forgot the biggest elephant in the room, China is the world's biggest semiconductor market, bigger than the rest of the world combined.

The incentive for US allies to either break, or workaround US sanctions is immense.

The same is for any domestic contender. The first toolmaker to get into Chinese market is an automatic billionaire, thank the embargo.

 

[JustAnotherPerson]

Yes i think that is better for the Chinese semiconductors companies to take two step backwards before doing a leap forward, they will be better creating a complete indigenous 28-14nm or at least a de-americanized 28-14 nm production line were most of the equipment and software is sourced locally and then leap forward to advanced nodes like 7nm and even 5-3 nm. That not mean that they should ditch TSMC or foreign equipment overnight but gradually and faster decrease the dependency, optimizing the production lines, seeing what works and what not.
Luckily that is what Huawei and others are doing with the 45nm and 28nm fab, is not there just for the sanctions, Huawei is testing waters in semiconductor manufacturing, what is working, what need optimization and what is not working, Huawei is investing in EDA companies and getting semiconductor patents left and right from lithography to packaging.

Huawei Investment unit acquires stake in China based EDA firm - Gizmochina

Hubble Technology Investment, the investment arm of Huawei, has recently made the move of investing in NineCube. This investment had the company acquire stakes in the electronic design automation firm, which is based in China. This move has been widely seen as the Chinese tech giant’s aim of...

www.gizmochina.com

https://www.eet-china.com/news/202102041047.html

Huawei applied for patents on lithography equipment and systems four years ago - CnTechPost

Huawei is reportedly recruiting lithography process engineers, which has sparked widespread interest. In fact, Huawei has already applied for patents for a lithography device and a lithography systems, which seem to have been prepared for the chip manufacturing process for a long time.

cntechpost.com

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Huawei may become the new ASML of the East. A great strategy since Huawei indeed has the capability and the pool of talent to ensure its success.
Free from US hegemony.

That is perhaps worrisome for ASML and that is why she is trying very hard to get the approval to sell its EUV to China.

USA can only staggered China momentarily but to stop it, dream on. By the 3rd qtr or end of this year, the machinery will be grinding in action again.

Although the original plan was to achieve 75% self sufficiency in 2025, i believe it will be achieved before that.

At this moment China is focusing in advanced packaging and testing where she has apparently moved ahead.

https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/...-its-semiconductor-supply-chain-new-standards

 

[gambit]

Yes i think that is better for the Chinese semiconductors companies to take two step backwards before doing a leap forward, they will be better creating a complete indigenous 28-14nm or at least a de-americanized 28-14 nm production line were most of the equipment and software is sourced locally and then leap forward to advanced nodes like 7nm and even 5-3 nm. That not mean that they should ditch TSMC or foreign equipment overnight but gradually and faster decrease the dependency, optimizing the production lines, seeing what works and what not.
Luckily that is what Huawei and others are doing with the 45nm and 28nm fab, is not there just for the sanctions, Huawei is testing waters in semiconductor manufacturing, what is working, what need optimization and what is not working, Huawei is investing in EDA companies and getting semiconductor patents left and right from lithography to packaging.

Huawei Investment unit acquires stake in China based EDA firm - Gizmochina

Hubble Technology Investment, the investment arm of Huawei, has recently made the move of investing in NineCube. This investment had the company acquire stakes in the electronic design automation firm, which is based in China. This move has been widely seen as the Chinese tech giant’s aim of...

www.gizmochina.com

https://www.eet-china.com/news/202102041047.html

Huawei applied for patents on lithography equipment and systems four years ago - CnTechPost

Huawei is reportedly recruiting lithography process engineers, which has sparked widespread interest. In fact, Huawei has already applied for patents for a lithography device and a lithography systems, which seem to have been prepared for the chip manufacturing process for a long time.

cntechpost.com

It will not be easy for Huawei. Try at least two yrs of making no money.

"You are a new player in the semicon manufacturing business. Why should I trust your products? It is irrelevant that you are using matured technology. The word 'matured' is kind for obsoleted. Nevertheless, I am willing to give you a chance. Since you have practically no experience in semicon manufacturing, I want engineering samples. The word 'engineering' does not mean experimental from your end, but what I do with commercial grade products on my end. It means I will not put your products into my devices. I will put what you have into various engineering tests according to industry standards and to how my devices are used. But I will not put your products into devices that are scheduled for my customers. Also, I am not under your time. That means I will test your products at my convenience and return to you whenever I am ready."​

The above is essentially what every POTENTIAL customer will say to Huawei. It takes 3-4 months from wafer start to packaging, even with matured tech nodes. Whatever testing a potential customer does after packaging can take weeks or months. During this time, Huawei new semicon manufacturing division cannot afford to be idle waiting for those test results. Huawei must keep on producing and unfortunately, losing money.

Even if Huawei bought an existing manufacturer, that does not mean existing customers will accept Huawei's management unconditionally. Every batch at every contracted purchase will have test samples at the manufacturer's and customer's ends to ensure consistent quality. New ownerships, especially when the new owner is inexperienced, are always cause for concerns. Simply put, no one knows how the new owner will enact changes at every level. What if some workers do not like the new owner and exits the new company? That is a Quality Assurance issue, not just manpower. Each worker contributes to what is called 'institutional memory'. The more technically adept a worker, the higher that contribution. A loss of a senior engineer, regardless of reason why, is always a major negative to that particular section and must be compensated somehow.

Older tech nodes means less dies per wafer real estate. It mean less money per wafer for Huawei. As an existing customer, that is a concern for me. Huawei just took over the manufacturing site where I bought for several yrs. How do I know or be assured of Huawei's management that will secure that site's future? Each wafer that I bought from my many sources have unique IDs that tell me the when/where/how that wafer was produced. I cannot afford to have that stability at risk by the new owner. Should I begin looking elsewhere just in case?

Do not think that I am making this up.

404 - Page Not Found

Huawei will know that I would be concerned about supply stability and would be looking for alternates.

The above is just a small sample of what Huawei will be going thru when entering the semicon manufacturing business. Huawei cannot afford to buy its own semicon products and only put into its own devices. That is a high risk of losing customers for those devices because there is no third party verification that what Huawei produced for its own use is any good compare to competitors. In other words, if Huawei produces NAND memory for its own cell phones, it must sell NAND memory on the open market for others to test and publish their findings, then people can trust Huawei cell phones and NAND products.

 

[JustAnotherPerson]

It will not be easy for Huawei. Try at least two yrs of making no money.

"You are a new player in the semicon manufacturing business. Why should I trust your products? It is irrelevant that you are using matured technology. The word 'matured' is kind for obsoleted. Nevertheless, I am willing to give you a chance. Since you have practically no experience in semicon manufacturing, I want engineering samples. The word 'engineering' does not mean experimental from your end, but what I do with commercial grade products on my end. It means I will not put your products into my devices. I will put what you have into various engineering tests according to industry standards and to how my devices are used. But I will not put your products into devices that are scheduled for my customers. Also, I am not under your time. That means I will test your products at my convenience and return to you whenever I am ready."​

The above is essentially what every POTENTIAL customer will say to Huawei. It takes 3-4 months from wafer start to packaging, even with matured tech nodes. Whatever testing a potential customer does after packaging can take weeks or months. During this time, Huawei new semicon manufacturing division cannot afford to be idle waiting for those test results. Huawei must keep on producing and unfortunately, losing money.

Even if Huawei bought an existing manufacturer, that does not mean existing customers will accept Huawei's management unconditionally. Every batch at every contracted purchase will have test samples at the manufacturer's and customer's ends to ensure consistent quality. New ownerships, especially when the new owner is inexperienced, are always cause for concerns. Simply put, no one knows how the new owner will enact changes at every level. What if some workers do not like the new owner and exits the new company? That is a Quality Assurance issue, not just manpower. Each worker contributes to what is called 'institutional memory'. The more technically adept a worker, the higher that contribution. A loss of a senior engineer, regardless of reason why, is always a major negative to that particular section and must be compensated somehow.

Older tech nodes means less dies per wafer real estate. It mean less money per wafer for Huawei. As an existing customer, that is a concern for me. Huawei just took over the manufacturing site where I bought for several yrs. How do I know or be assured of Huawei's management that will secure that site's future? Each wafer that I bought from my many sources have unique IDs that tell me the when/where/how that wafer was produced. I cannot afford to have that stability at risk by the new owner. Should I begin looking elsewhere just in case?

Do not think that I am making this up.

404 - Page Not Found

Huawei will know that I would be concerned about supply stability and would be looking for alternates.

The above is just a small sample of what Huawei will be going thru when entering the semicon manufacturing business. Huawei cannot afford to buy its own semicon products and only put into its own devices. That is a high risk of losing customers for those devices because there is no third party verification that what Huawei produced for its own use is any good compare to competitors. In other words, if Huawei produces NAND memory for its own cell phones, it must sell NAND memory on the open market for others to test and publish their findings, then people can trust Huawei cell phones and NAND products.

Yes, they are in the process of learning all that, nobody in the Huawei management team is saying that is going to be easy, but is something that needs to be done, you have to start somewhere, luckily for Huawei and thanks to the trump administration because in the past was next to impossible get China OEM companies collaborate with semiconductor companies, they are not alone in the process, they are collaborating with the rest of China semiconductor Industry and others sanctioned companies like SMIC to develop a more indigenous semiconductor industry. So they are in the process of standardizing the whole industry. That will help to increase productivity, Quality and homogeneity across the entire industry. They are already known the weak point and they are trying to solve it.

China enlists Huawei, SMIC to improve standards in its chip industry

China is enlisting academia and private industry to boost standardisation efforts to better protect its semiconductor supply-chain amid ongoing US sanctions.

www.scmp.com

Huawei has been designing their own chips for a long time, the test come from,Huawei own labs, third party testing companies and independent reviewers that benchmarks against competing products, if something doesnt work the go back to the drawing board, the only difference from now is that in the near future some of those chips are going be made by them instead a third party fab, probably at first in low volume and then in higher volume, Huawei is already doing that with their optoelectronics and photonic products in Wuhan. And don't think money is going to be a problem LOL.

 

[Mohrenn]

I think that China can catch up with the west in the next few years. People tend to forget, 10 years ago most people would've laughed at you if you said a chinese company would dominate 5G.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

It will not be easy for Huawei. Try at least two yrs of making no money.

"You are a new player in the semicon manufacturing business. Why should I trust your products? It is irrelevant that you are using matured technology. The word 'matured' is kind for obsoleted. Nevertheless, I am willing to give you a chance. Since you have practically no experience in semicon manufacturing, I want engineering samples. The word 'engineering' does not mean experimental from your end, but what I do with commercial grade products on my end. It means I will not put your products into my devices. I will put what you have into various engineering tests according to industry standards and to how my devices are used. But I will not put your products into devices that are scheduled for my customers. Also, I am not under your time. That means I will test your products at my convenience and return to you whenever I am ready."​

The above is essentially what every POTENTIAL customer will say to Huawei. It takes 3-4 months from wafer start to packaging, even with matured tech nodes. Whatever testing a potential customer does after packaging can take weeks or months. During this time, Huawei new semicon manufacturing division cannot afford to be idle waiting for those test results. Huawei must keep on producing and unfortunately, losing money.

Even if Huawei bought an existing manufacturer, that does not mean existing customers will accept Huawei's management unconditionally. Every batch at every contracted purchase will have test samples at the manufacturer's and customer's ends to ensure consistent quality. New ownerships, especially when the new owner is inexperienced, are always cause for concerns. Simply put, no one knows how the new owner will enact changes at every level. What if some workers do not like the new owner and exits the new company? That is a Quality Assurance issue, not just manpower. Each worker contributes to what is called 'institutional memory'. The more technically adept a worker, the higher that contribution. A loss of a senior engineer, regardless of reason why, is always a major negative to that particular section and must be compensated somehow.

Older tech nodes means less dies per wafer real estate. It mean less money per wafer for Huawei. As an existing customer, that is a concern for me. Huawei just took over the manufacturing site where I bought for several yrs. How do I know or be assured of Huawei's management that will secure that site's future? Each wafer that I bought from my many sources have unique IDs that tell me the when/where/how that wafer was produced. I cannot afford to have that stability at risk by the new owner. Should I begin looking elsewhere just in case?

Do not think that I am making this up.

404 - Page Not Found

Huawei will know that I would be concerned about supply stability and would be looking for alternates.

The above is just a small sample of what Huawei will be going thru when entering the semicon manufacturing business. Huawei cannot afford to buy its own semicon products and only put into its own devices. That is a high risk of losing customers for those devices because there is no third party verification that what Huawei produced for its own use is any good compare to competitors. In other words, if Huawei produces NAND memory for its own cell phones, it must sell NAND memory on the open market for others to test and publish their findings, then people can trust Huawei cell phones and NAND products.

Huawei's SoCs and modems were all designed in house, put through industry standard benchmark tests, and put in highly profitable products. Their design capabilities are proven since 1993 when Huawei debuted their first in-house ASIC. Their manufacturing capability is yet to be seen, but unlike a brand new semiconductor player, if they demonstrate equivalent benchmark results in their end products with their own fabbed products as external fabbed products, it goes a long way to ensuring profitability.

It'd be more like if Nvidia or Apple bought a fab, than a brand new player. And even relatively new players like Tsinghua Unigroup which entered the memory business in 2015 are now making money.

 

[Han Patriot]

It will not be easy for Huawei. Try at least two yrs of making no money.

"You are a new player in the semicon manufacturing business. Why should I trust your products? It is irrelevant that you are using matured technology. The word 'matured' is kind for obsoleted. Nevertheless, I am willing to give you a chance. Since you have practically no experience in semicon manufacturing, I want engineering samples. The word 'engineering' does not mean experimental from your end, but what I do with commercial grade products on my end. It means I will not put your products into my devices. I will put what you have into various engineering tests according to industry standards and to how my devices are used. But I will not put your products into devices that are scheduled for my customers. Also, I am not under your time. That means I will test your products at my convenience and return to you whenever I am ready."​

The above is essentially what every POTENTIAL customer will say to Huawei. It takes 3-4 months from wafer start to packaging, even with matured tech nodes. Whatever testing a potential customer does after packaging can take weeks or months. During this time, Huawei new semicon manufacturing division cannot afford to be idle waiting for those test results. Huawei must keep on producing and unfortunately, losing money.

Even if Huawei bought an existing manufacturer, that does not mean existing customers will accept Huawei's management unconditionally. Every batch at every contracted purchase will have test samples at the manufacturer's and customer's ends to ensure consistent quality. New ownerships, especially when the new owner is inexperienced, are always cause for concerns. Simply put, no one knows how the new owner will enact changes at every level. What if some workers do not like the new owner and exits the new company? That is a Quality Assurance issue, not just manpower. Each worker contributes to what is called 'institutional memory'. The more technically adept a worker, the higher that contribution. A loss of a senior engineer, regardless of reason why, is always a major negative to that particular section and must be compensated somehow.

Older tech nodes means less dies per wafer real estate. It mean less money per wafer for Huawei. As an existing customer, that is a concern for me. Huawei just took over the manufacturing site where I bought for several yrs. How do I know or be assured of Huawei's management that will secure that site's future? Each wafer that I bought from my many sources have unique IDs that tell me the when/where/how that wafer was produced. I cannot afford to have that stability at risk by the new owner. Should I begin looking elsewhere just in case?

Do not think that I am making this up.

404 - Page Not Found

Huawei will know that I would be concerned about supply stability and would be looking for alternates.

The above is just a small sample of what Huawei will be going thru when entering the semicon manufacturing business. Huawei cannot afford to buy its own semicon products and only put into its own devices. That is a high risk of losing customers for those devices because there is no third party verification that what Huawei produced for its own use is any good compare to competitors. In other words, if Huawei produces NAND memory for its own cell phones, it must sell NAND memory on the open market for others to test and publish their findings, then people can trust Huawei cell phones and NAND products.

We will fail, no worries mate. Why are you so afraid? What does the past 40 years tell you? We had been predicted to collapse explode and fail for almost 40 years. Yet we created some of the best companies on earth, lenovo, xiaomi, dji, bbk, Huawei, Catl, zpmc, nio, xpeng, nuctech, crrc, byd, sany, cssc, amec, alibaba, tencent, Luxshare, neway valves,

It will not be easy for Huawei. Try at least two yrs of making no money.

"You are a new player in the semicon manufacturing business. Why should I trust your products? It is irrelevant that you are using matured technology. The word 'matured' is kind for obsoleted. Nevertheless, I am willing to give you a chance. Since you have practically no experience in semicon manufacturing, I want engineering samples. The word 'engineering' does not mean experimental from your end, but what I do with commercial grade products on my end. It means I will not put your products into my devices. I will put what you have into various engineering tests according to industry standards and to how my devices are used. But I will not put your products into devices that are scheduled for my customers. Also, I am not under your time. That means I will test your products at my convenience and return to you whenever I am ready."​

The above is essentially what every POTENTIAL customer will say to Huawei. It takes 3-4 months from wafer start to packaging, even with matured tech nodes. Whatever testing a potential customer does after packaging can take weeks or months. During this time, Huawei new semicon manufacturing division cannot afford to be idle waiting for those test results. Huawei must keep on producing and unfortunately, losing money.

Even if Huawei bought an existing manufacturer, that does not mean existing customers will accept Huawei's management unconditionally. Every batch at every contracted purchase will have test samples at the manufacturer's and customer's ends to ensure consistent quality. New ownerships, especially when the new owner is inexperienced, are always cause for concerns. Simply put, no one knows how the new owner will enact changes at every level. What if some workers do not like the new owner and exits the new company? That is a Quality Assurance issue, not just manpower. Each worker contributes to what is called 'institutional memory'. The more technically adept a worker, the higher that contribution. A loss of a senior engineer, regardless of reason why, is always a major negative to that particular section and must be compensated somehow.

Older tech nodes means less dies per wafer real estate. It mean less money per wafer for Huawei. As an existing customer, that is a concern for me. Huawei just took over the manufacturing site where I bought for several yrs. How do I know or be assured of Huawei's management that will secure that site's future? Each wafer that I bought from my many sources have unique IDs that tell me the when/where/how that wafer was produced. I cannot afford to have that stability at risk by the new owner. Should I begin looking elsewhere just in case?

Do not think that I am making this up.

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Huawei will know that I would be concerned about supply stability and would be looking for alternates.

The above is just a small sample of what Huawei will be going thru when entering the semicon manufacturing business. Huawei cannot afford to buy its own semicon products and only put into its own devices. That is a high risk of losing customers for those devices because there is no third party verification that what Huawei produced for its own use is any good compare to competitors. In other words, if Huawei produces NAND memory for its own cell phones, it must sell NAND memory on the open market for others to test and publish their findings, then people can trust Huawei cell phones and NAND products.

We will fail, no worries mate. Why are you so afraid? What does the past 40 years tell you? We had been predicted to collapse explode and fail for almost 40 years. Yet we created some of the best companies on earth, lenovo, xiaomi, dji, bbk, Huawei, Catl, zpmc, nio, xpeng, nuctech, crrc, byd, sany, cssc, amec, alibaba, tencent, Luxshare, neway valves,

 

[JustAnotherPerson]

We will fail, no worries mate. Why are you so afraid? What does the past 40 years tell you? We had been predicted to collapse explode and fail for almost 40 years. Yet we created some of the best companies on earth, lenovo, xiaomi, dji, bbk, Huawei, Catl, zpmc, nio, xpeng, nuctech, crrc, byd, sany, cssc, amec, alibaba, tencent, Luxshare, neway valves,

We will fail, no worries mate. Why are you so afraid? What does the past 40 years tell you? We had been predicted to collapse explode and fail for almost 40 years. Yet we created some of the best companies on earth, lenovo, xiaomi, dji, bbk, Huawei, Catl, zpmc, nio, xpeng, nuctech, crrc, byd, sany, cssc, amec, alibaba, tencent, Luxshare, neway valves,

The problem is that what he is Quoting doesn't even apply to OEM companies like Huawei, its apply to semiconductors companies who don't make their own consumer and finished products like Texas Instruments, Analog devices, Gigadevice, STM, Xilinx, most SOCs manufacturers, of course if nobody trust your ICs products, it will hinder your development. But this is not the case of Huawei who make their own products that are benchmarked no only by Huawei internal team but also by third parties. Hisilicon design most of Huawei chips from the Power management to the modem to the SOCs, those chips are fab in multiple fabs inside China and by TSMC, therefor different manufacturing quality, those chips are not sold to anyone except Huawei products and still Huawei manage to make world class products.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

We will fail, no worries mate. Why are you so afraid? What does the past 40 years tell you? We had been predicted to collapse explode and fail for almost 40 years. Yet we created some of the best companies on earth, lenovo, xiaomi, dji, bbk, Huawei, Catl, zpmc, nio, xpeng, nuctech, crrc, byd, sany, cssc, amec, alibaba, tencent, Luxshare, neway valves,

Stop wasting yoir time with trolls.
He is not interested in what you have to say.
His is a selective mindset with cognitive bias for consistency rather than truth.

As a brand Huawei is synonymous with high quality and advanced technology.

So its success within China is almost certain and that is what Huawei needed most. The results are already showing.

USA and its 4 eyes alliance are in denial. But it won't bother us and time is in China favour.

Take a good look at says SMIC latest results.
Didn't the pundits in USA predicted last year that Huawei and SMIC will collapsed without US technologies?