Operation Moshtarak Thread: Afghan flag hoisted over Marjah

[Ahmad]

The "Barbarian" thing is already taken in my reply here:

The cat is out of the bag now, nothing can be done about it. by the way, it was the Mod who edited your post not yourself. lets stick to the topic please.

 

[qsaark]

The cat is out of the bag now, nothing can be done about it. by the way, it was the Mod who edited your post not yourself. lets stick to the topic please.

What cat and which bag? I said Afghans are barbarians and I say it again if you did not hear it before loud and clear.

 

[sherdil76]

so we will see more brutalities in name of WoT by nexus of evils

 

[Ahmad]

Hope these landmines planted by the taliban are detected on time before they kill the innocent civilians.

 

[sherdil76]

Hope these landmines planted by the taliban are detected on time before they kill the innocent civilians.

lol, get some knowledge, read this

Afghanistan: Land Mines From Afghan-Soviet War Leave Bitter Legacy
By Charles Recknagel

Afghanistan marks the anniversary of the withdrawal of Soviet troops from the country on 15 February. Among the legacies of the Soviet invasion, and the factional conflicts that followed the defeat of Soviet forces, are the hundreds of thousands of land mines that still litter many parts of the countryside.

Guy Willoughby has vivid memories of visiting Afghanistan 15 years ago at the time of the Soviet pullout.

As founder of the nonprofit demining group The Halo Trust, he went to Kabul to assess how many mines would have to be removed after 10 years of Soviet occupation. He and other demining experts were well aware that until the mines were cleared, millions of Afghan refugees would be unable to return home.

Afghanistan is considered by mine experts to be one of the three most heavily mined countries in the world.Willoughby, speaking recently with RFE/RL from his group's headquarters in Thornhill, Scotland, said that in 1989, many people in Afghanistan believed there might be as many as 30 million mines scattered about the countryside.

"The rumors were that there were between 10 million and 30 million land mines left behind in Afghanistan, mainly laid by the Russians but also laid by some of the mujahedin factions. We didn't believe these rumors at all. We simply couldn't work out how that number could possibly have been laid in the previous 10 years," Willoughby said.

Willoughby said records kept at the time by the Soviet-supported government of Ahmadzai Najibullah showed instead that there were about 250,000 mines in the country.

"We worked very closely with the Afghan Ministry of Defense of the Najibullah government, who were extremely cooperative, and they had copies of the Russian minefield records. The Russian engineers handed over many of their minefield records to the Afghan government, and it was clear that the figure [when the Soviets left in 1989] was more like 260,000 or 270,000 land mines," Willoughby said.

But while that number was considerably less than what the public imagined, it still posed an enormous challenge. So, too, did the fact that the laying of land mines did not end with the Soviet pullout but continued for more than a decade afterward.

Willoughby says the Najibullah government laid new mines to protect its main supply routes and garrison towns before its collapse in 1992. Subsequently, more mines were laid by factions trying to hold Kabul and other areas against the Taliban, which captured the capital in 1996.

now dont say Taliban were opium producers too

 

[S-2]

We make mistakes. The taliban make more mistakes. Nearly three times more. At least when they're not intentionally targeting markets with mortars and rockets and assassinating those whom they consider threats.

Then there's the small matter of hiding behind civilians when faced with their own destruction.

Can't recall that accusation made of ISAF. Sherdil, do you need the documented proof? Let me know because I have it. I'm simply uncertain how well you read.

Thanks.

 

[Ahmad]

lol, get some knowledge, read this

Afghanistan: Land Mines From Afghan-Soviet War Leave Bitter Legacy
By Charles Recknagel

Afghanistan marks the anniversary of the withdrawal of Soviet troops from the country on 15 February. Among the legacies of the Soviet invasion, and the factional conflicts that followed the defeat of Soviet forces, are the hundreds of thousands of land mines that still litter many parts of the countryside.

Guy Willoughby has vivid memories of visiting Afghanistan 15 years ago at the time of the Soviet pullout.

As founder of the nonprofit demining group The Halo Trust, he went to Kabul to assess how many mines would have to be removed after 10 years of Soviet occupation. He and other demining experts were well aware that until the mines were cleared, millions of Afghan refugees would be unable to return home.

Afghanistan is considered by mine experts to be one of the three most heavily mined countries in the world.Willoughby, speaking recently with RFE/RL from his group's headquarters in Thornhill, Scotland, said that in 1989, many people in Afghanistan believed there might be as many as 30 million mines scattered about the countryside.

"The rumors were that there were between 10 million and 30 million land mines left behind in Afghanistan, mainly laid by the Russians but also laid by some of the mujahedin factions. We didn't believe these rumors at all. We simply couldn't work out how that number could possibly have been laid in the previous 10 years," Willoughby said.

Willoughby said records kept at the time by the Soviet-supported government of Ahmadzai Najibullah showed instead that there were about 250,000 mines in the country.

"We worked very closely with the Afghan Ministry of Defense of the Najibullah government, who were extremely cooperative, and they had copies of the Russian minefield records. The Russian engineers handed over many of their minefield records to the Afghan government, and it was clear that the figure [when the Soviets left in 1989] was more like 260,000 or 270,000 land mines," Willoughby said.

But while that number was considerably less than what the public imagined, it still posed an enormous challenge. So, too, did the fact that the laying of land mines did not end with the Soviet pullout but continued for more than a decade afterward.

Willoughby says the Najibullah government laid new mines to protect its main supply routes and garrison towns before its collapse in 1992. Subsequently, more mines were laid by factions trying to hold Kabul and other areas against the Taliban, which captured the capital in 1996.

now dont say Taliban were opium producers too

I am well aware of the landmine problems in Afghanistan. Although the Taliban have planted more on top of the existing ones. Landmines are a huge problem in Afghanistan, while i was in Afghanistan in some mountains and other plain areas(non urban) we were absolutely in danger of losing our lives because of these mines, becasue every step we took , there was no guarantee that you didnt step on a landmine(anti personal or anti tank)

 

[qsaark]

We make mistakes. The taliban make more mistakes. Nearly three times more.

Which study published in a or many peer reviewed Journals of international repute reported this 'three time more' figure?

At least when they're not intentionally targeting markets with mortars and rockets and assassinating those whom they consider threats.

Source of this propaganda other than 'official' NATO/ISAF/puppet ANA source?

Then there's the small matter of hiding behind civilians when faced with their own destruction.

Still the civilians allow them to hide behind them and don't support the occupation forces.

I'm simply uncertain how well you read.

Hopefully better than how you were reading the charts on poppy growth during past eight years of occupation of Afghanistan.

 

[S-2]

"now dont say Taliban were opium producers too"

Well, the taliban aren't in the fields per se but the data makes clear that there's a severe correlation between the traditional regions of strength of the taliban and where opium is most prevalently grown in Afghanistan.

During the taliban's rule in Afghanistan between 1996-2001, they were the world's leading producer of opium, setting a then world record in 1999. See Pg. 1 of UNODC Afghan Opium Survey 2009-

2009 Afghanistan Opium Survey Summary-UNODC

The chart on page one makes clear the consistent RISE in opium production from 1996 when the taliban seized power until 1999 where it set a world record. Even 2000 was far higher than all previous years but 1999.

It was only in 2001 when the taliban, seeking the funding previously denied by the international community, radically cut opium cultivation. In so doing, they completely caught off-guard the farmers of Afghanistan with whom they'd encouraged such practices and left desperate vast swaths of the afghan agricultural community who were devastated by the taliban's eradication.

The taliban didn't care. They had a new agenda.

Opium production today is down from a high of 193,000 hectares in 2007 to 123,000 hectares in 2009- a two year reduction of 36%. Nonetheless, the data shows that 80% of the opium now grown in Afghanistan occurs in Helmand, Kandahar, and Oruzgan-the areas where the taliban exert the greatest control.

See page 2 of the UNODC Afghanistan Opium Survey 2009.

Further, the taliban have created a sophisticated taxation system within these areas from which they derive considerable revenue-

Afghanistan War: Marjah Offensive Targets Opium Capital- CSM Feb. 9, 2010

Finally, many of their local fighters are also farmers whom derive much of their livlihood from opium. Taliban operations are timed to permit their fighters the opportunity to work their fields.

The taliban are knee-deep in dope and have been for years. Your comment is ludicrous in the face of the evidence to the contrary.

You might do yourself a favor and save the links. You need the education, it seems.

Thanks.

 

[qsaark]

I am well aware of the landmine problems in Afghanistan. Although the Taliban have planted more on top of the existing ones.

As if Northern alliance and those who were fighting with Taliban only laid carpets.

 

[qsaark]

Helmand, Kandahar, and Oruzgan-the areas where the Taliban exert the greatest control

Who are the governors of these provinces? Taliban?

Why occupation forces did not destroy the poppy crop? Because several Div of Taliban Army protecting those fields and had installed SA300/400 around?

What the drones and spy satellites doing? Maybe fields were under underground.

Why the transportation of the harvest could not be intercepted and traffickers controlled? Because there were underground massive tunnels opening into neighboring Pakistan.

Thirty six percent reduction? I am all too aware of these statistical gimmicks, why it was not down to zero when the occupation forces had all means available to them to do so? After eight year long occupation its only 36% down.....

 

[S-2]

"There may be more ANA troops, but its still being spearheaded by NATO/US forces, is it not?"

Yes. British and American combat forces are in the lead but each battalion is married to an ANA battalion throughout the operation. If you've looked at the links throughout this thread there have been numerous photos. Virtually all include ANA troops with ISAF forces. Do F.C. troops routinely lead when married with P.A. forces in local operations like Rah-I-Nijat? I suspect not.

"I wouldn't put money on it. Not yet."

Of course you wouldn't. They will make mistakes and have set-backs. They will struggle on their own for some time. Their difficulties can only be exacerbated by the malevolence and endurance of the enemy's leadership. So long as the snake's head can think comfortably elsewhere, there shall be a leadership in opposition to the ANA's efforts.

I hope some YEAR that ceases. Don't you?

"Once again, my intent was only to know how long NATO/US forces plan to hold ground there."

Perhaps you should ask the ground commanders and the President.

"I do not wish the ANA any ill."

I'm uncertain of that.

"However, I also don't think the ANA will be significantly more capable a year and a half from now than it is today."

Thanks for the supporting information behind your opinions. I try hard to support mine but now have doubts whether even esteemed think-tank members actually read threads and the embedded links. I shouldn't be surprised when speculation is offered backed by allusions to others without reference. Did CNN say so or did they quote others? What others, may I ask? See where I am going?

"No, but I'd like to know you're not simply hoping to flush them out of one area and allow them to come together in another."

You mean like the TTP was flushed into N. Waziristan, Orakzai, and Kurrum? The land is hard and survival instincts kick in. Men do what they can to live. We modeled our warnings to Marjah on the P.A. warnings to S. Waziristan throughout last summer. How many left before your forces attacked? How many since? There is no perfect solution. You know that thus there is a high degree of disingenuousness to your commentary.

"Does Afghanistan end at Helmand? Are the Taliban incapable of sneaking into neighboring territory towards the West? That was the question, you could have simple said "nope, not possible", but you decided to throw accusations instead."

Here was your comment again-

"Secondly, where will the Taliban go after this? Will they try to push further West (away from their strongholds along the Durand Line) or will they try to come East?"

The "...strongholds along the Durand Line" hold little practical meaning in Helmand. Do you realize how far Marjah is from the Pakistani border? You would if you'd availed yourself of the ISW link I'd provided earlier. The taliban in Helmand are centered in the green zones of the Helmand river valley where the people and the opium are located.

"Also, what efforts are being made to ensure that they are unable to get to their strongholds in the East and prevent them for trying to seek sanctuary in Pakistan?"

PAFAce, they may attempt to head into Kandahar where their presence is very strong. They may attempt to head south along the Helmand river where their presence is very strong. If they head far south to your borders, please tell your forces to stop them if you can. We are comfortable knowing that your military recognizes the great difficulty in stopping those whom wish to cross the borders as they've been unable (unwilling) to stop those in Miram Shah and elsewhere along FATA from doing so for years. Some may run for Pakistan. Good luck. We know Faizullah ran for Afghanistan, correct? How successful were your efforts to stop him?

"So, no. There are no efforts being made to ensure they can't reunite with their buddies in the East. Roger that."

Snide and petty like much of your post. We'll make every effort, I'm sure, to kill or capture them if we can find them before they cross into sanctuary on your lands. After that, they are your problem. Rightfully so. Remove the idea in their heads that sanctuary exists in Pakistan and they'll have to settle for other locales much closer. If their intent is to go to Pakistan, however, it must be because they feel SAFE there, no?

"It's been a tough day, eh? I guess that explains your impatience."

My impatience with you derives from sifting through your snide unsubstantiated assertions lacking supporting links and your equally clear unwillingness to read those offered to you. This is a thread about a distinct military operation within a defined area far from the Pakistani border.

"No malicious intent on my part, sir, just simple queries."

Hardly. You are a former military professional, no? Perhaps a commissioned officer? It isn't evident in your evaluation of the operation at hand and the display of strawmen here makes clear that malice was, indeed, close to the mark. I knew so from your initial post and it is confirmed in my mind, PAFAce.

You can do better and be far more prepared and forthright in your questions. I've seen it before but it's not on display here.

Thanks.

 

[Metallic]

Initial key objectives of Op Moshtarak achieved
UNITED KINGDOM - 13 FEBRUARY 2010

The initial key objectives of Operation Moshtarak have been achieved in a short space of time and with minimal interference from the Taliban, UK military spokesman Major General Gordon Messenger has said this afternoon.

The "clearing" phase of the operation was launched at 0400hrs local time this morning with a series of simultaneous helicopter assaults and ground offensives undertaken by thousands of Afghan Army forces and ISAF soldiers from nations including the UK, US, Denmark and Estonia.

Major General Messenger said:

"It is still early days but operational commanders are currently pleased with the progress that has been made since the operation was launched this morning.

"There has been some resistance but it has been relatively light and the initial objective of surprising the Taliban with the time and place of the operation appears to have been achieved."

Major General Messenger said the key objectives of this phase of the operation was the built up population areas where troops were inserted via helicopters. Ground elements, linked up with these troops according to plan.

Soldiers from the 1 Royal Welsh Battle Group, the Coldstream Guards Battle Group (UK) and 1 Grenadier Guards Battle Group (UK), along with their Afghan Army partners and troops from Estonia were involved in clearing the area of the Chah E Anjir Triangle, as well as the area to the west of Babaji.

American and Afghan troops meanwhile led air and ground assaults in the much larger Marjah region where clearance operations are still ongoing.

Major General Messenger said that in the British area of operations the initial stage of the clearance phase had been completed. He said there has been some fighting but that this had been only sporadic adding:

"The Taliban have not been able to put up a coherent response. They appear confused and disorientated."

The speed of the clearance phase has allowed shuras with the local population, led by the Afghan National Army to take place. These have been successful, the locals know that ISAF and Afghan forces were coming and they have been welcoming, Major General Messenger said.

The elders have been assured that ISAF are here to stay and the early signs are that the local people are keen to engage.

This is key to the enduring success of the operation. Major General Messenger suggested that the Taliban have either left the area of melted into the local population, perhaps with a view to fighting another day. But the strategy to build up the influence of the Afghanistan Government and a permanent security presence from Afghan and ISAF forces in the area will limit the ability of insurgents to once again take control.

Major General Messenger said there have been a number of IED finds and a number of occasions where the local population have pointed out IEDS, in one case a lane through an IED field was pointed out.

Critical to the success of the operation so far, he added, was the use of ISAF air elements including the full array of ISTAR and fixed wing support. He said there were strict instructions on the use of air munitions which were being kept to an absolute minimum.

While there have been a relatively low number of insurgent casualties, Major General Messenger said he is not aware of any civilian casualties.

The current situation involves predominately Afghan forces engaging with local people in the population centres with other ISAF forces providing flanking protection on the outside.

The theme over the next 24 hours Major General Messenger said was that of consolidation, with troops getting a greater understanding of the terrain they are operating in and making sure the local people know that they are there to protect them.

Following this the stabilisation plan will be immediately enacted which sees an enduring security force of partnered Afghan and NATO forces, and the Afghan National Police, providing reassurance and presence for the local population.

Local governors and village elders were consulted before the operation started and will be an important part of the design of the subsequent security posture.

Summing up the operation so far Major General Messenger said:

"It appears that the Taliban have been forced into relative inactivity, although in the next few days they could get their breath back and have a go. There is also the residual IED threat.

"No one is saying the area is secure or the job is done but the feeling is that events last night have gone as well as they could have gone. So far so good.

"We have achieved tactical surprise, the approach of advance warning has gone well and the positive local dynamics are a very good sign but there's still a long way to go. This is all about winning the allegiance of the local people and you can't do that over night."

Stressing the point that seeking to engage the Taliban was never a key objective, Major General Messenger said:

"This is not and cannot be a campaign of us against them. It is about removing their ability to operate in the population and then building the Afghan capacity to deal with the challenges."

Major General Messenger said that the operation is of considerable significance to the overall campaign in Afghanistan, saying that these areas are known as bad areas and until we can show and enduring presence there then we can't move on to the next level of the campaign.


Members of the Afghanistan Army with 1st Battalion the Royal Welsh head over to the helicopter landing spot as they take of for Operation Moshtarak



Cpl Lino Woolf, 1st Battalion the Royal Welsh, keeping a firm grasp of his search dog as Operation Moshtarak begins.



Members of the 1st Battalion The Royal Welsh prepare for boarding helicopters as they prepare for Operation Moshtarak



A helicopter comes into land to lift waves of Afghanistan Army and 1st Battalion the Royal Welsh troops for Operation Moshtarak

 

[PAFAce]

British and American combat forces are in the lead but each battalion is married to an ANA battalion throughout the operation. If you've looked at the links throughout this thread there have been numerous photos. Virtually all include ANA troops with ISAF forces. Do F.C. troops routinely lead when married with P.A. forces in local operations like Rah-I-Nijat? I suspect not.

Well, I didn't want to be the one to compare the Frontier Corp to the Afghan National Army so as not to invite criticism for underestimating the ANA. Also, unlike the ANA, the FC always has Pakistan Army to fall back on. The ANA, in the future, might not.

So long as the snake's head can think comfortably elsewhere, there shall be a leadership in opposition to the ANA's efforts.

We could say the same. In fact, when we launched our own massive operations, we did. I think this is part of that "trust deficit" thing.

Perhaps you should ask the ground commanders and the President.

I thought someone here might have a clue.

I'm uncertain of that.

You wouldn't say that if you knew what I've written in the Think Tank section. But I don't have to justify myself to you.

You mean like the TTP was flushed into N. Waziristan, Orakzai, and Kurrum? The land is hard and survival instincts kick in.

Well our objectives were a lot clearer than yours. We wanted to capture and destroy TTP's bases in Malakand, Swat and SWA, and we did so (to a large extent), but your objectives are unclear to me (hence the questions). Also, take your own advice and stick with Operation Moshtarak, Rah-e-Nijat and Rah-e-Rast can be discussed elsewhere.

Here was your comment again

Miscommunication, that's all. You didn't get what I meant to say. Common when the conversation is not face-to-face, nobody's fault.

You are a former military professional, no? Perhaps a commissioned officer?

Not even close. I'm a 21 year old Engineering student of Pakistani origin living in Canada. I thought you knew that already.

You can do better and be far more prepared and forthright in your questions. I've seen it before but it's not on display here.

I can certainly be more informed. In fact, that is I'm here. My questions, initially, were to get the opinion of "those in the know". That is all.

 

[waraich66]

What cat and which bag? I said Afghans are barbarians and I say it again if you did not hear it before loud and clear.

Why Afghans are barbarian? they are fighting for liberation their home land, Muslims and Hindu both fought against Britishers for independence 1857 and 1947 , are they barbarians also?