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Operation "Gibraltar" and "Grand Slam"

I'd suggest you keep a respectable stance with me, I'm not another one of your Subcontinental kin who'll brush it off as a joke. Plus, I was never rude to you nor did I disrespect you. However I do not blame you since obviously, nobody thought you about respect.
@WAJsal , @DESERT FIGHTER , Take a look at this guy.
janab mazearat ke saath kehna chahta hoon ki

larami me larne wale larake utne zaroori nahi hote jitna un larako ki kuwwat , paintre baazi aur larai ka anjaam zaroori hote hain

rahi baat SSG ki aur unki kuwat aur shahkarro ki yakeenen wo bahut umda hain per asal mudda ye hai ki kya wo us larai me wo najaam de sakke jiski unse tawakko thee :azn:
 
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The performance of the Army did not match that of the PAF (Pakistani Air Force) mainly because the leadership was not as professional. They had planned the ‘Operation Gibralter’ (infiltration into J&K) for self glory rather than in the national interest. It was a wrong war. And they misled the nation with a big lie that India rather than Pakistan had provoked the war and that we were the victim of Indian aggression.”

Air Marshal (Retd) Nur Khan quoted in ‘Dawn’ – Karachi. 6 Sep, 2005

It took 40 years for Air Marshal (Retd) Nur Khan – Chief of the PAF during 1965 war to state the truth about the genesis of 1965 war.

“Since the 1965 adventure, Pakistan’s generals have maintained a Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) in public relations about military matters.” According to this virtual SOP, “The Pakistani military wins every war it fights and Pakistan’s generals make no mistakes. Any blame for failure lies either with civilians or the Americans”.

Hussain Haqqani-former Pakistani Ambassador in Sri Lanka.

The performance of the Army did not match that of the PAF (Pakistani Air Force) mainly because the leadership was not as professional. They had planned the ‘Operation Gibralter’ (infiltration into J&K) for self glory rather than in the national interest. It was a wrong war. And they misled the nation with a big lie that India rather than Pakistan had provoked the war and that we were the victim of Indian aggression.”

Air Marshal (Retd) Nur Khan quoted in ‘Dawn’ – Karachi. 6 Sep, 2005

It took 40 years for Air Marshal (Retd) Nur Khan – Chief of the PAF during 1965 war to state the truth about the genesis of 1965 war.

“Since the 1965 adventure, Pakistan’s generals have maintained a Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) in public relations about military matters.” According to this virtual SOP, “The Pakistani military wins every war it fights and Pakistan’s generals make no mistakes. Any blame for failure lies either with civilians or the Americans”.

Hussain Haqqani-former Pakistani Ambassador in Sri Lanka.
 
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The only reason PAF fared well in 1965 was because Air Marshal Nur Khan was actually born in India and was trained at IAF academy. But Pak did loose all its wars, they might have done well in some battles and there is no denying that's but they always lost the wars because the wars were ill-planned, had no carry through to achieve long term objectives and couldn't be sustained. Also, they grossly underestimated India's reaction which can be quite disproportionate when things get going. However, these wars also allowed India to recognize its own security gaps and slowly but surely lots of things have changed for the better.
 
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No, This is my Great Grandfathers story, during the 1965 War which we won. If you would have won the war, Pakistan would not exist. Pakistan exists to date, even giving you nosebleeds like Kargil. If India is as powerful as it claims, why don't you try and invade us? We'll see what happens.
That is the difference between you and us. Just because we can doesn't mean we will. India is not an expansionist power. period.
 
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The only reason PAF fared well in 1965 was because Air Marshal Nur Khan was actually born in India and was trained at IAF academy. But Pak did loose all its wars, they might have done well in some battles and there is no denying that's but they always lost the wars because the wars were ill-planned, had no carry through to achieve long term objectives and couldn't be sustained. Also, they grossly underestimated India's reaction which can be quite disproportionate when things get going. However, these wars also allowed India to recognize its own security gaps and slowly but surely lots of things have changed for the better.
And Ayub Khan was trained in PMA right?

That is the difference between you and us. Just because we can doesn't mean we will. India is not an expansionist power. period.
Nice joke
 
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And Ayub Khan was trained in PMA right?


Nice joke

PMA did not exist at that time..... and then Ayub Khan was commissioned in to the Chamar Regiment. That is were he got an ACR for "timidity" during WW 2.
Read up Maj. Aga H.Amin (R) PA on the history of the PA. It will be enlightening.
 
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PMA did not exist at that time..... and then Ayub Khan was commissioned in to the Chamar Regiment. That is were he got an ACR for "timidity" during WW 2.
Read up Maj. Aga H.Amin (R) PA on the history of the PA. It will be enlightening.
Looks like you didn't get my sarcasm.
Read the post which I quoted first.

As for Agha Amin, there are many others with different POV's and my POV is that 65 war was a stalemate, nothing more, nothing less.

PMA did not exist at that time..... and then Ayub Khan was commissioned in to the Chamar Regiment. That is were he got an ACR for "timidity" during WW 2.
He was a good president but a below average military commander.
 
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1. Initially I was CI of a training camp for Mujaheeds at Dungi, Kotli Sector. The CO of this facility was an AKRF officer, ex-INA.
2. DCs used to arrange to send "volunteers" through the SPs. At times we found a Mujaheed who had been trained and sent in, coming again as a new "volunteer". Without any indoctrination/motivation and without doing the spade work in IHK for such an op in an enemy held area, these "volunteers" just did not feel confident in the entire enterprise. The SPs would normally send the Police to round up the number of youth requisitioned, and send them as "volunteers". No one realized that a guerrilla fighter needs to be far more motivated than even a professional soldier.
3. To my knowledge Maj Hazoor Hasnain was the only SSG officer who could return after the para-drop. He had escaped with a soldier in a stolen jeep. I haven't heard of any of these groups accomplishing their mission. This appeared totally ill-planned. Strangely in all drop zones they appeared to be expected.
4. Bhutto in the Forn' Ministry, Gen Musa as the Chief and his senior staff at GHQ should have planned and advised the President on the pros and cons. It is mindboggling to learn that Gen Musa had not kept NHQ and AHQ posted. GHQ was feeling rather too bold after the success in the Rann of Kutch. Bhutoo definitely misled all about the diplomatic front, US support and support under CENTO and SEATO.
5. PA needs to carry out a proper critique of Op Gibraltar and '65 War itself. May be they have done it, but haven't published this. The role of Mithha Khan in planning both Gibraltar and the para-drops makes one wonder. How could he fail to see the mistakes being committed.
6. I should deviate into the '71 War to question the then QMG, Gen Mithha Khan's role in that war. His presence and as a rep of GHQ, and his background, sort of authorized him to over-rule all commanders at Eastern Command. On his orders the first deviation from the OO was made in taking in Sheikh Mujib. Gen Rao Farman Ali has specifically required him to be brought from his house by SSG officers in civvies and take him to the GOC's house quietly/incognito. Apparently there was an arrangement like that. But on CO, SSG's insistence, supported by Mithha, SSG went in force firing all round at no target and blasting grenades like crackers in a wedding procession. In most instances only isolated detachments under an NCO of regular units were involved in committing atrocities and killings. But this was rampant by SSG - with the full knowledge of Mithha. You can ask Lieut Col Nadir Ali Khan, Ord, who was CO of an SSG Bn and now lives in LHR Cantt. Mithha's presence in Dhaka at the time of the crackdown probably did most harm to Op Searchlight's objective - ensuring ultimate victory by us.
 
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Bhutto in the Forn' Ministry, Gen Musa as the Chief and his senior staff at GHQ should have planned and advised the President on the pros and cons. It is mindboggling to learn that Gen Musa had not kept NHQ and AHQ posted. GHQ was feeling rather too bold after the success in the Rann of Kutch. Bhutoo definitely misled all about the diplomatic front, US support and support under CENTO and SEATO.
Air Marshall Sharbat Ali Changezi was the liaison officer for during that time, He is a witness that General Musa did keep the AHQ posted. One of Ayub Khans biggest mistakes was to remove the Air-force chief Asgher Khan and replace him with Nur Khan, who was not the right man for the job. These false acquisitions were made by a specific somewhat "self-promoting" officer...

Let me write down the exact reason: (This is from his book)
"The then Foreign Minister, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Foreign Secretary, Aziz Ahmed. spurred on by Major Akhtar Hussain Malik (Commander of the troops in Azad Kashmir), pressed the Government to take advantage of the disturbed situation in the Kashmir Valley and direct the Army to send raiders into Indian held Kashmir for conducting guerrilla activities there to help, on a long-term basis, the locals in organizing a movement with a view to eventually start an movement with a view to eventually start an uprising against the occupying power."

"I had this proposal examined by my staff in the GHQ, We agreed that something positive should be done to de-freeze the Kashmir issue and that, with this aim in view, the people of Kashmir could feasibly be helped to keep up the agitation to the extent they could be by themselves. Morally and legally, it was justifiable. But they should not be encouraged to step it up beyond their capacity to sustain it on their own, nor embark on any other provocative move in a hurry."

Followup post inbound:

"In the first place, adequate preperations had not been made in the valley to star guerrilla activity, We had not even apprised the local Pro-Pakistan leaders of our intention and plan of action, nor ascertained from them whether they would be willing to, and could, help us in any way. Despite the unrest there, they wouldn't be able to co-operate with the freedom fighters sent from Azad-Kashmir to the extent necessary due to the deployment, in strategic ares, of nearly 5 Indian Infantry divisions and strong civil armed forces. Without their assistance, the proposed raids by the Foreign office would very likely fizzle out, since we would not be able to maintain the raiding parties logistically from the West, or Azad Kashmir, particularly if they succeeded in penetrating their target ares in the interior, north and south of Srinagar.

Secondly, our intervention in Kashmir would lead to a general war. In complete disregard of international law and moral scruples, India would go to the extreme limit against Pakistan in order to save Kashmir, besides fighting for every inch of the disputed State itself, It would be idle to nurse the illusion that she would not embark on that course, The armed forces would, ofcourse fight to the bitter end, if needed, but it was not prudent to reply, too heavily, on their qualitative superiority in an all-out conflict with a numerically superior enemy. Quantitatively too, they should be augmented so as to give them a fair chance of taking on the adversary under those conditions. We didn't have even half of what India had in Military strength, which was the minimum requirement to defend Pakistan, in a full-scale war successfully and press on with our commitments in Kashmir, simultaneously, taking into account the great likely hood of getting deeply involved in Kashmir at that time, due to the proposed guerrilla activity than might be necessary in the event of open hostilities breaking out between the two countries in other circumstances."


"It might be known that, after the Rann of Kutch battle, the GHQ had proposed that the Army be augmented by two Infantry divisions, to improve the unfavourable military equation between the two opposing land forces. We should have waited atleast till these formations were raised. First, the Ministry of Finance spurned our proposal to raise new divisions. Then those who controlled the Ministry of Foreign Affairs were not convince that Preliminary preparations for starting an insurgent movement were unavoidable, and did not believe that India would use deep raids in disputed territory as a reason for escalating a wider war for the sake of Kashmir. The statement in the Government White Paper, on Jammu and Kashmir published by Bhutto's Government, that on 12 March, 1965, the Foreign Minister addressed a letter to the President saying "India is not at present in a position to risk a general war of unlimited duration for the annihilation of Pakistan" also throws light on their thinking on this matter.
The policy makers thwarted the professional assessment and advice on a matter having grave Military implications because of their miscalculation of the Politicio-Strategic situation and the over ambitiousness of a few individuals involved in decision making who were prompted by their desire to achieve some quick and spectacular results in Kashmir by clandestine Operations."

I do not understand why people think that the Military proposed Operation Gibraltar and Grand-slam. This should be very clear to you all now.

65 war was a stalemate
Strategically, yes.
But a force which was not even half the size nor military might of the enemy achieving a stalemate is something to be proud of. In this way, I think that the 65 war was a Victory.
Bhutto underestimated India's reaction, and was over ambitious.
But then again, that is what happens when you give Military decisions to a bunch of incompetent Politicians.

Gen Musa as the Chief and his senior staff at GHQ should have planned and advised the President on the pros and cons
"I asked Mister Farooqi, Principal Secretary to the President, who was also present that he should also breif the President on the stand we had taken in the discussions. Further, to ensure that the President knew our views, I sent him a note, the following morning, which I gave a summary of the points we had raised the previous evening . He returned it with a remark in his own handwriting, that he agreed with the GHQ".

is it Oxford or what?
Nope, "WAJIDALIS".
I'd strongly recommend you read it to find out what really happened in the 1965 war.
 
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1965 was hard time for India... we weren't ready either...even then we were successful in reversing the table and chase them back... kudos to able leadership and sacrifices of the armed forces...
 
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That is the difference between you and us. Just because we can doesn't mean we will. India is not an expansionist power. period.
This I have to agree with to a large extent. India has pursued other options to project power instead of seeking direct dominion and it has worked out better.
 
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the indians don't get a simple fact why this is a victory to us. in a david vs Goliath battle holding your own against an enemy 6 times your size and bringing it to a stalemate is a victory enough.

you cannot expect Pakistan to enter Delhi and then claim victory. realistically a stalemate is good enough. HENCE 6TH SEPTEMBER is the Defense day of Pakistan when our enemy crossed international border and tried to win Lahore or Sialkot from us.

Yes operation Gibraltar failed due to our armed forces being occupied in the punjab sector and thus relieving the pressure of Kashmir.

but we salute or armed forces for defending our land and laying down their lives to safeguard Pakistan! :pakistan:
 
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Nice joke

There is a reason we did not annex East Pakistan, even though it shares very close cultural and ethnic ties with a part of India, i.e. West Bengal. We believe in calibrated use of power.

the indians don't get a simple fact why this is a victory to us. in a david vs Goliath battle holding your own against an enemy 6 times your size and bringing it to a stalemate is a victory enough.

you cannot expect Pakistan to enter Delhi and then claim victory. realistically a stalemate is good enough. HENCE 6TH SEPTEMBER is the Defense day of Pakistan when our enemy crossed international border and tried to win Lahore or Sialkot from us.

Yes operation Gibraltar failed due to our armed forces being occupied in the punjab sector and thus relieving the pressure of Kashmir.

but we salute or armed forces for defending our land and laying down their lives to safeguard Pakistan! :pakistan:
You start a war with the objective of winning Kashmir.
Your objective took a full about-turn within a matter of two weeks and came down to protecting your own heartland. And you call it a victory ? Man.. are you so desperate to see something good come towards you ?

I don't celebrate unless I achieve my objective, my goal, may be it works differently for you ?
 
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He was a good president but a below average military commander.


Ayub was not the first "below average military commander" to become COAS or even President.

Musa was "below average" too, he was appointed COAS precisely because of that; so that he could never become a threat to the self-appointed "Field Marshal" Ayub. Ditto for Yahya Khan.
Then even Zia-ul-Haq who could have become the ultimate "Super Rug Salesman of the year" or the "Khalifa of Mullas" instead and done a darn sight better.
 
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