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One Indonesian who insulted Palestine catched by Indonesian police with possible 6 years in prison as punishment

I never said Apartheid is a wall, you obviously has missunderstood what I said. See again my post #18 above.

LOL. You missunderstand again with your article. See the context of your article, it is talking about how South African treat their citizen with segregation of race.

What Israel do is not a segregation based on race on their own citizen, but segregation between their citizen and non citizen. I have explained this for the second time to you, please read carefully.




What you said is illogical. All you mention above if lacky, is not Israel fault.

International recognition is a freedom of each nations, Israel can't hinder each nation to recognize Palestine.

Palestine doesnt have this and that is their own fault, not other country or Israel fault. Palestine refuse peace agreement with Israel and focus on war instead of building their own nations. If Palestine focus on development and accept piece with Israel, they could spend their energy for the development, and international financial aids including from US will flow for the development.



I dont understand what kind of education you have.

This is the genocide definition from Oxford:
View attachment 745271

There is no killing of large number of people happen or intended by Israel with the barrier they built.
There is no evidence Israel has killed large number of Palestinian people deliberately with aim of destroying Palestine, of course of Palestine people (under Intifada or Hamas) attack Israel, you can't blame Israel for destroying/killing them.

This is definition from UN:
The United Nations Genocide Convention, which was established in 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such" including the killing of its members, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately imposing living conditions that seek to "bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group. Victims have to be deliberately, not randomly, targeted because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups outlined in the above definition.[4][5][6][7]

Unless you can prove it, accusing Israel's building barrier as genocide is crazy, and the accuser maybe only from Palestine side, not supported by UN.





These all are from video made by Palestine side, not from reliable/solid evidence. I have seen many video with subjective narations from them, like a video narrated as if Israel soldier prevented a Palestine man to be brought with ambulance, but the fact: we dont know why the soldier do that, perhaps the guy is Hamas fighter. Same like Hamas naration that Israel attack Al Aqsa, while other source said that Hamas was attacking Israel troops then hide in Al Aqsa.

Hamas fighter never use uniform as their identity like Israel troops. Once hamas fighter attack Israel then they hide in civilian facilities (mosque, hospital, school, apartments, etc) and mingle with civil even use civil as human shield; that make fatalities high with Palestinian side, and Hamas make propaganda that Israel doing atrocities, then ppl like you believe it!


I dont say there is no atrocities done by Israel at all, but what Israel do most are self defence while Hamas is the agrgessor.



LOL. Dont twisted my word,

Of course I say the opposite, that the 20 countries are making sense by supporting Israel attack on Hamas, rather than being savaged. :laugh:

Why do you think those 24 countries supporting Israel?



OK. While Israel attacking Hamas get support from more than 20 countries, how many countries support Hamaz?



OK, how many countries condemning Israel for attacking back Hamas?

Well.. it's obvious we will never see eye to eye in this matter.. and neither will we change our minds... so let's just agree to disagree.. you are free to support Israel.. and I'm free to support Palestine... :meeting: To engage in an endless and pointless discussion is just a waste of time and energy..
 
Agree, so lets see if those who publicly mock Israel gets the same treatment. Disclaimer, I dont support Israel. My criticism is on the fact that prosecuting this case is dumb. Who is pressing the charges? Palestinian? If so, are they pressing charge in Indonesian and Palestinian court? Is Palestine a recognized country at all that allows for diplomatic pressure to prosecute a foreigner in foreign courts? See how dumb this is?

Palestine as a sovereign state is recognized in Indonesia and has an embassy here... I have no idea on who's pressing the charges, but someone (or more likely a lot of people) obviously did and so the police had to act on it.. The law is Indonesian law and is only applicable within our borders.. so if a foreigner abroad had made this video, then there's nothing our law enforcement or courts would or could do... and yes personally I also find UU ITE problematic... but it is what it is....
 
Well.. it's obvious we will never see eye to eye in this matter.. and neither will we change our minds... so let's just agree to disagree.. you are free to support Israel.. and I'm free to support Palestine... :meeting: To engage in an endless and pointless discussion is just a waste of time and energy..


Doesn't matter. I dont expect you will change your mind with this discussion / debate. I know people with political motive in discussion or certain belief system has already had determination and will not change their mind because of discussion/debate.

I just want to know how strong and how rationale is the reason behind the Palestinian supporter like you ;)
 
Doesn't matter. I dont expect you will change your mind with this discussion / debate. I know people with political motive in discussion or certain belief system has already had determination and will not change their mind because of discussion/debate.

I just want to know how strong and how rationale is the reason behind the Palestinian supporter like you ;)

And you are not one of those "...people with political motive in discussion or certain belief system..." yourself ?
Well I can clarify one thing though, my support for a free Palestine is never based on religious sentiments... as I'm not a religious person myself...
 
And you are not one of those "...people with political motive in discussion or certain belief system..." yourself ?
Well I can clarify one thing though, my support for a free Palestine is never based on religious sentiments... as I'm not a religious person myself...


I never have political motive in this forum, just saying what I think it is right - eventhough it is not always in line with the expectation from other pdf members (either from Indonesian fellows, or from Chinese pdf members)

To certain degree I have a certain belief system, but I am a rational persons. You can change my mind if you can defeat my argument with fact/citation, tough but can :)
 
Charged him with what? Is it a crime to support Israel?
Supporting Israel is not a crime if you live in a country which maintain relation with Israel, but if you live in a country which does not even recognize Israel as a state, supporting Israel may constitute a kind of treason. @Indos

2nd point is, that individual was arrested and prosecuted for insulting Palestinians. This insulting is particularly evil thing to do considering hundreds of Palesinians are now being murdered. In the West, you can not insult or mock the Jewish people, if done, you will end up in jail. if that do not breach the freedom of speech, then why Muslim countries should not do the same for Palestinians? Are Palestinians death and suffering is anyway less worth than Jewish sensitivity?
 
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Israel building wall is not for a segregation/discrimination toward their citizen, but toward Israel citizen vs Palestine citizen, hence not suitable to be called "apartheid".
Palestinians are not a free nation, they are under Israeli occupation. Their every aspect of life is controlled by Israel. Even worse, Israel can kill as many Palestinians as they like without any repercussion. So Apartheid analogy is completely valid.

 
Palestinians are not a free nation, they are under Israeli occupation. Their every aspect of life is controlled by Israel. Even worse, Israel can kill as many Palestinians as they like without any repercussion. So Apartheid analogy is completely valid.



That is not true. Barrier that separate 2 different territories cannot be said as tool for occupation.

Free nation doesn't mean you can cross to other territory freely; Palestine citizen should not be able cross into Israel territory in west bank, the same way Israel citizen should not be able to cross into Palestine freely.

Israel built barrier for their own security to protect their citizen from terrorism, and it is their right. In the past there are many intifada attack & suicide bombers from Palestine side in west bank area against Israel citizen, that is the background of the barrier.

Israeli West Bank barrier


The Israeli West Bank barrier or wall or fence is a separation barrier in the West Bank or along the Green Line. The barrier is a contentious element of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel describes the wall as a necessary security barrier against terrorism; Palestinians call it a racial segregation or apartheid wall.[1][2][3] At a total length of 708 kilometres (440 mi) upon completion, the route traced by the barrier is more than double the length of the Green Line, with 15% of the barrier's length running along the Green Line or inside Israel, while the remaining 85% is inside the West Bank going up to 18 kilometres (11 mi) from the West Bank border, isolating about 9% of the land and 25,000 Palestinians from the rest of West Bank.[4]

The barrier was built during the Second Intifada that began in September 2000 by the Israeli government following a wave of Palestinian political violence and incidents of terrorism inside Israel.[5] The Israeli government cites a decreased number of suicide bombings carried out from the West Bank as evidence of its efficacy, after such attacks fell from 73 (between 2000 and July 2003 – the completion of the "first continuous segment"), to 12 (from August 2003 to the end of 2006).[6][7] While the barrier was initially presented as a temporary security measure in a time of heightened tensions, it has since been associated with a future political border between Israel and Palestine.[8]

.................................


Suicide bombings have decreased since the construction of the barrier.[7][62][63] Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad have been less able to conduct attacks in Israel, which have decreased in areas where the barrier has been completed.[64][65]



You can't call it "apartheid", because it is the separation between citizen of Israel and non citizen, not the separation between their own citizen based on race/ethnic/religion/social segregation.

Every country has right to make border/barrier that separate their territory with other territory which doesn't belong to them.

@Homo Sapiens @tower9 @Whizzack @nufix @Indos
 
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Malcolm Hedding, a South African minister who worked against South African apartheid and Executive Director of the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem, said that the West Bank barrier has nothing to do with apartheid and everything to do with Israel's self-defense. He said that Israel has proven its desire to reach an accommodation with the Palestinians while granting political rights to its own Arab citizens within a liberal democratic system, but that the Palestinians remain committed to Israel's destruction. By contrast, he says, it was a tiny minority in South Africa that held power and once democracy came, the National Party that had dominated the masses disappeared.[155][156]


@Homo Sapiens @tower9 @Whizzack @Indos @nufix @Song Hong @Viet @Feng Leng @mike2000 is back @kuge @UKBengali @AZADPAKISTAN2009
 
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Supporting Israel is not a crime if you live in a country which maintain relation with Israel, but if you live in a country which does not even recognize Israel as a state, supporting Israel may constitute a kind of treason. @Indos

2nd point is, that individual was arrested and prosecuted for insulting Palestinians. This insulting is particularly evil thing to do considering hundreds of Palesinians are now being murdered. In the West, you can not insult or mock the Jewish people, if done, you will end up in jail. if that do not breach the freedom of speech, then why Muslim countries should not do the same for Palestinians? Are Palestinians death and suffering is anyway less worth than Jewish sensitivity?


Indonesian policy which doesn't support Israel shall not prevent her citizen to give different/opposite opinions. This is democracy.

Also in the west we can't mock Jews due to antisemit law.
 
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