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Offtopic post from SS thread.

The weak Hadiths are Hadiths that Muslims do not believe in.

So quoting a weak Hadiths means that I as a Muslim would not believe it.

Context is also important. I've seen a lot of verses lifted that have no context, which can change the meaning completely. Even it may rationalize what is said.
 
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Excuses, excuses.

There are plenty of Indian texts with verses that would seem immoral in modern times. However, we are not the ones making lame excuses like "weak hadith" and "out of context".
Actually I am anxious to see hadith (as long as it has proper reference) you are talking about. Making lame excuses or what not will come after that.
 
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Actually I am anxious to see hadith (as long as it has proper reference) you are talking about. Making lame excuses or what not will come after that.

No thanks, I'd rather not. I've got better things to do than dig up dirt.
 
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Sure; if war booty and money was the case, then Prophet Muhammad SAWS had no need to claim prophethood nor a new religion. Prophet Muhammad SAWS was from Banu Hashim, and the most noble a ruling clan of the Quraysh. He already had enough influence among the other rulers with his previous title of Amin and Siddique to accumulate more troops and resources to take over Arabia a lot earlier. His own paternal ancestors were generals of old Meccan armies. In fact, he was even offered absolute rule over the Quraysh many times, and in return for 1-2 non-Islamic holidays.

At this point I will prefer to discuss actions rather than motives which are too subjective and not easy to confirm. I do know for fact that till he started getting the "revelations", he was known more for being the husband of a wealthy woman than anything else.

A lot of Islamic History has been fudged since the height of Western colonialism. Fact is...Christianity is still in the Middle East; Hinduism is still in India; Jews are still around; the words sugar, lemon, algebra, etc, entered the Latin dictionary; Jerusalem will stand witness TWICE to how Muslims treated locals when they captured the city...i.e. once under Hazrat Umar ibn Khattab RA and again under Salahuddin. A little bit different when Babu Raju and his Thugs entered Gujrat.

You can always quote selected incidents to make your points. I can do the same.

Let's take Mahmud Gazani and his 2 million murders, massacres by Timur Lame and Nadir Shah, desecration of Golden temple by Abdali, routine genocides by the Bahamani rulers, the cruel murder of the ninth Sikh Guru and his young kids by Aurangzeb and so on. I can recount hundreds and hundreds of incidents which paint not a very tolerant picture of Muslims and Islam. This continues to this day with the genocides in Bangladesh, Afghanistan during the Taliban rule and Darfur, Sudan.

Even the invasion by Bin Qasim has been glorified in Pakistan while the reality as accepted by the Arabs and known to every Sindhi is a lot different with thousands of murders of innocents and sending thousands of Sindhi women to Harems back home.

Even to have sex with a slave woman you need her permission, and impregnating her makes her a full member of your household. There are even hadiths of slaves filing anything from rape charges to even complaining that their masters couldn't "satisfy them" properly. Whether wife or slave, rape is something that was punishable by death.

Did you know that in pre-Islamic customs, it was expected of a man to yield his wife to a noble (or nobles) of the higher caste clans such as Banu Hashim? If the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him and his followers were fixated on such things, trust me...it would have been done without the need of Islam.

So the Islam indeed permitted slavery! Not very egalitarian, I guess!

Permission from a slave for sex! You must be joking.

I have no reason to believe any fables created by Arabs about their pre-Islamic society without independent corroboration. They had a vested interest in denigrating it to show their own version in better light! The reality suggests otherwise. The prophet's wife was a rich women independently running her business and employing men! That suggests a better status for women, pre-Islam!

Did you know that providing girls education and letting women roam free within their residential city is part of Shariah? So how close were the Taliban to Shariah? BTW, it is also allowed in Shariah for a doctor to treat victims of the opposite gender, this was shown many times in the Sunnah in many situations. Male physicians had to treat issues pertaining to birth complications to women physicians treating soldiers on the battlefield. So how close were the Taliban to Islamic Law?

That is for Muslims to answer. How come the Taliban who professed to follow the Islam literally did all this without inviting any censor from the Afghan clergy? Mullah Omar obviously knows Islam and Shariah, does he not? The Talibs were students of Islam. They must have known how Shariah worked. Are you claiming they didn't? That all those years spent in the Madressah were for nothing!

Right on. Spain, Persia & North Africa...take a look at Jewish history.

Since you're so fixated on colonialism...also remember the Late Victorian Holocaust.

Let's not get into comparative games here. You guys claim Islam to be the one shot medicine for all ills and the perfect religion for all people at all times.

You can't get away by claiming that others were worse than you! You have to be perfect at all times or give up the pretense to perfection!

About Persia, I know that the followers of Zoroastrianism were kicked out of their land on the pain of death and took refuge in India. What did you want to say here?

Spain and North Africa, Jewish history. Possibly those rules were good in parts and the Jews claimed that the Muslims rulers in those areas were more tolerant than the Christians of Europe. There are theories that they did so to shame the Europeans but it could well be true. It doesn't take away from the other acts that were not so great. Does it?
 
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Perfect fuel to the like of Ali Sina and that Dutch film maker!

I dont see anything in the referenced post that is a perfect fuel for anyone, unless one creates something out of nothing in his mind.

I see why some people say that the problem in not with Muslims.

The facts on the ground at all times (including the time of the prophet) are completely opposite to the utopia you are painting here. War booty was always the main motives for early Arab Muslims to go to war. Ransom taking for hostages of war was common and encouraged. One even hears of a zombie pointing out his own brother for the biggest ransom.


War booty was a secondary motive but not the only motive. Is is difficult to get through your or many present day muslim's mind because such people dont believe in the faith or after life. Nothing you have mentioned can only be associated with the muslims of that time. Those were the norms of the time and the arab muslims were not the martians.

Rapes of women captured is again captured in the Hadhiths themselves with the Arabs asking the prophet if they can do "coitus interruptus" to avoid making the women pregnant and thus reducing the ransom amount!

Before going to such acquisitions, I am expecting you to quote the Haith source. Until than it is nothig but your opinion.

Very convenient to say that no state in Islamic so you avoid having to defend anything that is currently happening in the Islamic world and that gives a complete lie to the Utopian world of your dreams. The Taliban came closest to the Islamic rule in modern times and one has seen what that means. The segregated women hospitals didn't have anesthetics there as the women are supposed to bear pain! That is if they were lucky enough to get treatment in the first place.

Most were not so lucky! They died miserably as that was preferable to being treated by a male doctor.


First of all, Taliban don't come closest to the Islamic rule in modern times. This credit goes to the KSA and Kuwait, Yemen etc. Secondly, Taliban are ethnic pashtoon, who are very touchy about their customs. Things that you have mentioned has more to do with thier tribal customs than with Islam. There are several dozen variations of Hinduism exist among various ethnic groups and the same is also true for any other religion.

Please show some results on the ground rather than lofty preachings. They fool no one, they should not fool you guys into believing any of this to be true too.

They are not lofty preachings, and even if they are, they are not for you. Nothing happens overnight, everything that is in existance today was once only a thought.

Here is the Hadhith:

Bukhari 3.34.432

Bukhari 3.34.432: “Narrated Abu Saeed Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allâh's Apostle he said, "O Allâh's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allâh has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.”

Bukhari reports:

Abu Saeed said: “We went out with Allâh's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allâh's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."


Please do check this out.

You would obviously not see any fuel, same as many don't see anything wrong with painting all people following a religion as terrorists! To others, the absurdity is plain obvious. It shows how much Islam cares for the lives of people, especially the 85% non-Muslims!

Let's get rid of the "norms of the time" logic! Its is absurd. If you claim Islam to be perfect for all times and for all people, this "norm of the times" logic doesn't fly! Besides it is not true. The others were not so cruel and intolerant. Also what did Islam do to change these anti-human norms?

I have given the Hadhith source, do check it out.

Again, if after a thousand years of Islam, if the Pashtun society could not reform itself, where do you think the failure lies? Wasn't Islam supposed to come to the rescue and resolve these very issues?

Even KSA, Yemen and Kuwait are not topping any charts! Look at the status of women in these countries in the Global Gender Gap report.

What do you mean by overnight. Islam has been there for more than 1400 years now. Are you still experimenting?
 
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The context has been given. It seems rational when looked at in the context.

However, I could quote pages and pages of verses from Hindu books that lack any context but are plain horrid and genocidal against the "inferior" non Hindus and lesser peoples to the Brahmin caste.

Getting into comparisons won't help if you want to claim your religion as perfect for all people at all times.

You are coming up with ludicrous logic once again.
 
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Two problems with this.

One, it is not true. In India such monstrosity was never seen before. May be in the harsh places these nomads came from, it was commonplace!


It just happened that muslims were the ones who were powerful, ambitious and geographically connected. If India was located between Tigris and Euphrates, it would be Romans. I would equally blame the inhabitants of the India for all that happened to them in the first place. Obviously, your text books wont tell you how much hindu blood was shed by the other hindu much before the advent of Islam.

Two, following Islam should have made them more humane as per the claims by Muslims. It clearly did not happen!

No, as I said earlier, religion can only show you what to do. It cant force you to do it.

At the very least it gives a lie to the claim that Islam is any kind of answer to the problems of the world. It could not make even the people who followed it any more humane, probably only worsened it as the religious bigotry was added to the mix of being cruel by birth!

You would better serve your time by telling the same things to your right wing people, who also believe that hinduata is the answer to all the problems of the world.

It is useless to debate with a person who believes in 'being cruel by birth' non-sense. At the time of my birth, did I know I was a muslim so I should be cruel by default?

I don't want to repeat myself. Suffice to say you can't claim being perfect and than getting into relativism.
 
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woah hoh! where did you pull that one out of? the coitus interruptus incident was brought up by a sahabi who did not want to have a child with his wife at the moment, how can you possibly misinterpret this hadith? the hadith had absolutely nothing to do with the spoils of war chapters, rather it was based on guidelines for intercourse.

further reading of that hadith will reveal that the man was following advice from jews, that coitus interruptus is the same as killing a child. the Prophet (SAWS) corrected him and explained to him that when Allah chooses to create a child, no one can stop him.

it's quite obvious hindutva fanatics like you pick stuff of your liking and play around with it to defame islam.

female captives are supposed to be left alone, so that they can be exchanged with captives on the other side. we value the lives of muslim prisoners more than captives, hence the word "captive".

not to mention intercourse with female slaves was actually despised back then, courting someone of a lower status was deemed to be lowly. People were exceptionally cautious of their lineage, in order to have intercourse, the slave would have to become a permanent wife of the master.

I have mentioned the original Hadhith and the context is clear and it is not about "a sahabi who did not want to have a child with his wife at the moment"!

Also, you need to understand that it is not me who started this argument. You guys started claiming the greatness of Islam and are being challenged with fact. Please do counter them with your facts.
 
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Again, if after a thousand years of Islam, if the Pashtun society could not reform itself, where do you think the failure lies? Wasn't Islam supposed to come to the rescue and resolve these very issues?

Ummm, I hate to break international world news to you, but the Soviet-Afghan war is the reason for "lack of reform" in Afghanistan.

In fact women had the vote in Afghanistan before the Swiss, Portuguese, Liechenstein people, and many more.
 
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Here is the Hadhith:

Bukhari 3.34.432

Bukhari 3.34.432: “Narrated Abu Saeed Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allâh's Apostle he said, "O Allâh's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allâh has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.”

Bukhari reports:

Abu Saeed said: “We went out with Allâh's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allâh's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."


Please do check this out.

Ummm, doesn't this just show that Islam forbids making "coitus interruptus" with slave captives?
 
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Ummm, I hate to break international world news to you, but the Soviet-Afghan war is the reason for "lack of reform" in Afghanistan.

In fact women had the vote in Afghanistan before the Swiss, Portuguese, Liechenstein people, and many more.

Was everything hunky dory before the Soviet war?

And I was countering the argument by a Pakistani member who said that what happened during Taliban rule was due to Pushtun culture and not Islam! What do you feel about that? Was the "Pushtunwali" a result of the Soviet invasion?
 
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Ummm, doesn't this just show that Islam forbids making "coitus interruptus" with slave captives?

But not the rape and coitus itself!

And not slavery or the keeping of captives too!
 
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I have mentioned the original Hadhith and the context is clear and it is not about "a sahabi who did not want to have a child with his wife at the moment"!

Also, you need to understand that it is not me who started this argument. You guys started claiming the greatness of Islam and are being challenged with fact. Please do counter them with your facts.
the hadith regarding coitus interruptus is pretty clear, it deals with someone who did not choose to have a child with his wife. the hadith you have posted, can very well be termed as weak. just because it's in Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim, does not automatically mean it is a source you can rely upon.

I can go online right now and pull out whatever hadith I that suits me, which obviously points out that there is something wrong. however, I avoid doing that. rather I choose to read hadith through an actual book instead of an online source, and then later I confirm it with a trustable and fully recognized scholar of hadith. you need certified scholars, more specifically muhaddith to check up on the chain of narratives. sometimes, you'll find hadith that have only a few narrators on the chain, which obviously points towards the hadith being fake.

as for your rape allegation, no where does it mention in the hadith that the captive struggled. there has been mention of that, and as Mark Sien pointed out very clearly, any sex in islam must be consensual, it cannot be forced down, even upon one's wife.

as for islam being the perfect way of life, I personally did not start this argument. however, your manipulation and misinterpretation of hadith cannot go unnoticed.
 
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Please go ahead and give the correct version if you think it is wrong.

Of course, you need to prove what you come up with.
 
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