Nobel laureate Liu Xiaobo : Dark matter

[bolo]

The title is same as in the original article.

you're right. Than leave it.

 

[dray]

you're right. Than leave it.

The article says Liu Xiaobo is the dark matter in Chinese political discussions, he is not there but he is there.

 

[Levina]

LOL. Me too. @WebMaster @Aeronaut please change the title as it's misleading.

Understand the sarcasm in the title

 

[Genesis]

Finally a long and detailed reply, but is the voice of dissent really that few in China? China is doing very well economically, but there will be a point when recession will hit China, it has to because it cannot continue with this momentum forever, then what? Is it possible that many people want political reforms but are silent now because of the economic prosperity, but this voice of dissent will increase proportionately with the slowdown of economy? I mean that's a possibility, people generally demand change in such situations.

History tells us that autocratic Govts. generally have a limited shelf-life, especially for a country as big and as diverse as China, and people demand more freedom and greater degree of say in the running of the country as they become more educated and more confident.

Change is happening, Western people just don't recognize it because they have an idea on what change is and anything other than that they don't see it or simply dismiss it.

China is having a 300 million middle class today, it will be 600 by 2020. That's not a reform, but that's a change in the political land scape.

Chinese people are having choices and having money, their needs are changing and their wants are increasing, that's not a reform, but that's a change in the stakeholders of this country.

China is abandoning one child policy and reform camps, it is freeing up the economy in 12 trial free economic zones, it's punishing officials in more public ways, it's more transparent than it was, the rule of law is better upheld with a more educated populous that knows their rights, and much more.

These things are all reforms and changes that will pave the way for a CHINESE SYSTEM. They may not look like change to the west, but only because we both begin as a insects, but when we go into a cocoon, we will emerge as a beautiful butterfly instead of a moth. Not a derogatory comment, just can't think of something else that goes into the same thing and emerge different, unless you count me and my university roommate.

Even if we assume that China is not yet ready for a democracy, but why not grant your citizens basic rights like freedom of expression? If some groups are resorting to terrorism or vandalism, of course punish them as per the law, but why Chinese Govt. is going after the scholars and activists for doing peaceful protest or maybe just for writing some articles & books?? And not only one person, once one is in the bad books of CCP, then his/her whole family has to suffer the same fate, there are several examples of that. Don't you think such kind of forceful suppression of criticizing voices would led to a greater degree of outburst in future? Freedom of speech & expression works as a safety valve in a pressure cooker, without it the whole thing may potentially be a ticking time bomb.

again, you are only seeing that the only possible way to go is Western democracy, I say it is not, our economy proves there's more than one way. We will shape our government how we see fit.

Our government is still in it's early teenage years, it's not mature, when it grows up, it won't look like the west, but it will be able to deal with whatever life throws at it and it will have the same abilities if not than our Western counterparts.

If you open your mind to the possibility of a different system that can be just as good, then you won't be saying a phrase like not ready for democracy.

Just out of curiosity I searched in baidu.com for Tiananmen Square, first search result claiming that Tiananmen massacre is a myth, other results are about its general history etc., none of the results are talking about the massacre, will such suppression of facts help in the long run?

I will be busy for the whole day and may not be able to reply today, but do you really think that one party rule will continue forever, or you have to allow oppositions in the running of the Govt. at some point in future? And will CCP allow to let go its absolute control over China without a blood bath? If democracy is a eventuality, then a massive disruption is a strong possibility in China, and China should allow greater degree of freedom to its citizens step by step to ease the process and to avoid a massive social & political unrest.

China does censor certain things, but you must understand, unlike me who grew up in the West they grew up in China, the bind of society of family of respect of obedience is still strong there. This will change with generations to come, but only somewhat because, if you can humor me, we are Chinese not Americans.

We are comfortable with chopsticks and they are with forks, both have served us well for all these years, and neither is worse.

Again, China is changing, but changes are according to Chinese needs and wants, Chinese want strong economy, streamline bureaucracy, capable and respected leaders, strong justice system, and better social services. All of that is in motion. We won't ever become completely western, because we are Chinese, our needs is different. I'm not saying no freedom, I am saying different kind of freedom.

About India, our democracy is far from being perfect, but in 20-25 years our entire population will be educated, caste system is dying a slow death, national identity is becoming much more stronger than regional identities, we are more connected than before due to internet and mobile phones, and our large young population is open to new ideas & thoughts, I have great hope on our young population, I believe we will perfect the democratic system in our country by the time we complete 100 years of it in 2047, that's not far away!!

Democracy is beautiful, take the risk, you won't regret.

again, does democracy really work for India? Are Indians really happy with the system? It's a system not tailor made for Indians, but off the rack from UK. But that's not the topic, and only the wearing knows how comfortable it is.



If you wear suits you will know how a Bespoke suit and a off the rack compares. Double breasted and three piece suits are both good, each suits their own occasion, and none is the answer to all.

 

[dray]

Change is happening, Western people just don't recognize it because they have an idea on what change is and anything other than that they don't see it or simply dismiss it.

China is having a 300 million middle class today, it will be 600 by 2020. That's not a reform, but that's a change in the political land scape.

Chinese people are having choices and having money, their needs are changing and their wants are increasing, that's not a reform, but that's a change in the stakeholders of this country.

China is abandoning one child policy and reform camps, it is freeing up the economy in 12 trial free economic zones, it's punishing officials in more public ways, it's more transparent than it was, the rule of law is better upheld with a more educated populous that knows their rights, and much more.

These things are all reforms and changes that will pave the way for a CHINESE SYSTEM. They may not look like change to the west, but only because we both begin as a insects, but when we go into a cocoon, we will emerge as a beautiful butterfly instead of a moth. Not a derogatory comment, just can't think of something else that goes into the same thing and emerge different, unless you count me and my university roommate.

Yes, China is changing, but these are all social changes and changes in economic policies. I am talking about a political change, a political reform. While one-party rule gives stability, but such a system may be skewed to one section of the society, or may be too corrupt because of the unquestionable power they enjoy, and nobody would be able to question their decision even if they are blatantly wrong. Such autocratic political systems have resulted into some of the biggest & bloodiest civil wars in many countries including China.

So, is there any plan to allow multiple parties into the political system of China and allow some form of choice and voice of opposition to the people? And do you consider such a change is necessary and even inevitable at some point in the future?

again, you are only seeing that the only possible way to go is Western democracy, I say it is not, our economy proves there's more than one way. We will shape our government how we see fit.

Our government is still in it's early teenage years, it's not mature, when it grows up, it won't look like the west, but it will be able to deal with whatever life throws at it and it will have the same abilities if not than our Western counterparts.

If you open your mind to the possibility of a different system that can be just as good, then you won't be saying a phrase like not ready for democracy.

I can understand that people of China are satisfied with its current economic policies and growth, and they just don't want to rock the boat. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all the voice of dissent must be crushed. If the party is doing right things and they have popular support of people, then what is the FEAR for any criticizing opinion? In any case, don't you think criticism is healthy for a balanced growth and for taking corrective actions wherever necessary?

China does censor certain things, but you must understand, unlike me who grew up in the West they grew up in China, the bind of society of family of respect of obedience is still strong there. This will change with generations to come, but only somewhat because, if you can humor me, we are Chinese not Americans.

We are comfortable with chopsticks and they are with forks, both have served us well for all these years, and neither is worse.

Again, China is changing, but changes are according to Chinese needs and wants, Chinese want strong economy, streamline bureaucracy, capable and respected leaders, strong justice system, and better social services. All of that is in motion. We won't ever become completely western, because we are Chinese, our needs is different. I'm not saying no freedom, I am saying different kind of freedom.

Conservative society and obedience is all fine, but that doesn't mean a grown up adult cannot question their leaders!! Aren't the people of China real stakeholders of China? It is their country, they live there and they are the ones who are rightful owners of their country, their fate is intertwined with China, so, why shouldn't they have any say in the running of their country? Why any citizen of China questioning and/or criticizing CCP or any of its officials need to be marked as a traitor and put behind bars? And why their family members need to be targeted for their action? Don't you think such things are reflections of purely communist paranoia with voice of dissent, just like in many erstwhile communist countries?

And then comes the question, do you think eventually CCP will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in other erstwhile communist countries, if they don't allow political reforms?

again, does democracy really work for India? Are Indians really happy with the system? It's a system not tailor made for Indians, but off the rack from UK. But that's not the topic, and only the wearing knows how comfortable it is.

If you wear suits you will know how a Bespoke suit and a off the rack compares. Double breasted and three piece suits are both good, each suits their own occasion, and none is the answer to all.

For a diverse country like India democracy was the best option, probably only option. As I have mentioned earlier, ours is not yet a mature democracy, but we are certainly ironing out its deficiencies, and we are ready to give it more time. And it is not off the rack from UK, we have customized it as per our needs, you have to follow local level elections to understand that.

However, I was interested to know what China is planning for its future, is it going to remain a one-party rule? Is it going to reform, if yes, then what kind of changes we can expect? What system people of China think suitable for them going forward?

Any input from @Chinese-Dragon , @Edison Chen and @ChineseTiger1986 on this?

 

[Edison Chen]

Yes, China is changing, but these are all social changes and changes in economic policies. I am talking about a political change, a political reform. While one-party rule gives stability, but such a system may be skewed to one section of the society, or may be too corrupt because of the unquestionable power they enjoy, and nobody would be able to question their decision even if they are blatantly wrong. Such autocratic political systems have resulted into some of the biggest & bloodiest civil wars in many countries including China.

So, is there any plan to allow multiple parties into the political system of China and allow some form of choice and voice of opposition to the people? And do you consider such a change is necessary and even inevitable at some point in the future?



I can understand that people of China are satisfied with its current economic policies and growth, and they just don't want to rock the boat. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all the voice of dissent must be crushed. If the party is doing right things and they have popular support of people, then what is the FEAR for any criticizing opinion? In any case, don't you think criticism is healthy for a balanced growth and for taking corrective actions wherever necessary?



Conservative society and obedience is all fine, but that doesn't mean a grown up adult cannot question their leaders!! Aren't the people of China real stakeholders of China? It is their country, they live there and they are the ones who are rightful owners of their country, their fate is intertwined with China, so, why shouldn't they have any say in the running of their country? Why any citizen of China questioning and/or criticizing CCP or any of its officials need to be marked as a traitor and put behind bars? And why their family members need to be targeted for their action? Don't you think such things are reflections of purely communist paranoia with voice of dissent, just like in many erstwhile communist countries?

And then comes the question, do you think eventually CCP will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in other erstwhile communist countries, if they don't allow political reforms?



For a diverse country like India democracy was the best option, probably only option. As I have mentioned earlier, ours is not yet a mature democracy, but we are certainly ironing out its deficiencies, and we are ready to give it more time. And it is not off the rack from UK, we have customized it as per our needs, you have to follow local level elections to understand that.

However, I was interested to know what China is planning for its future, is it going to remain a one-party rule? Is it going to reform, if yes, then what kind of changes we can expect? What system people of China think suitable for them going forward?

Any input from @Chinese-Dragon , @Edison Chen and @ChineseTiger1986 on this?

It's a huge topic, DRAY, I will make it short cause I have many work to deal with these days.

As I said in an other thread before, some Westerners say China lack democracy, yes, it's true, but before that, the most urgent task for China is to pursue an independent judicial system. In the CCP's most important meeting, the Eighteen Third Plenary Session, our leaders decided to promote independent judicial system from the lower level of government, to reduce the influence of administration on judicial authority and procuratorial authority. It's a long-term process, first from lower level and then move on to national level. Everyone knows the importance of an independent judicial system: things are dealt with justice, corrupted officials get no shelter, everything could be done through negotiations and appealing or other kind of lawsuit. Only in this way, corruption diminishes step by step, because no people will beg officials for something illegal, there is no need to bribe, everything could be settled publicly in the court. Our officials will have very few possibility to directly intervene in events that's far beyond their own jurisdiction. Only if everyone does his own job and leave alone other's job, that is to say everybody never cross the line, corruption will be solved. I think the aim of democracy is to make our government more committed to serve the public interest. So, before democracy, an independent judicial system is a necessity. If we skip this phase, everything will be in chaos. Many people are ignoring this point.

Some people are misunderstanding democracy here, they think democracy is an absolute freedom, they can say everything, they can do anything. This is totally wrong, even in the west, people are responsible for their our speech not hurting others. To get free, first, you need to take responsibility. Freedom without responsibility is an abuse of civil right, also a blasphemy to our constitution. The problem is how to define responsibility, when government was in a responsibility default, it also should be prosecuted or sent to the court, as our individuals.


司法独立首入三中全会公报 基层司法机构需脱离地方_中国新闻_新闻中心_
China's top court urges judicial independence, end to interference| Reuters


We know democracy works well in west and developed countries, but democracy is not suitable for current China. For the past several hundreds of years, China basically adopted the same regime as today, don't surprise, it's true. There should be some rationality anyway. I have something else to address actually, but I have heavy work, when I'm free, I will tell you.

 

[Genesis]

Yes, China is changing, but these are all social changes and changes in economic policies. I am talking about a political change, a political reform. While one-party rule gives stability, but such a system may be skewed to one section of the society, or may be too corrupt because of the unquestionable power they enjoy, and nobody would be able to question their decision even if they are blatantly wrong. Such autocratic political systems have resulted into some of the biggest & bloodiest civil wars in many countries including China.

So, is there any plan to allow multiple parties into the political system of China and allow some form of choice and voice of opposition to the people? And do you consider such a change is necessary and even inevitable at some point in the future?

As I have said, economic and social changes are connected to political changes, a more educated populous means a more accountable government, because education gives people options, but more importantly it makes us formidable and not only hard to fool, but can take you down if you cross the line.

Chinese power isn't unquestioned, nobody can be, the 10 year rule is a limit on power, while the central committee members all have strong backings from local levels. We may not have different parties but we have different factions, we may not have votes, but we have result based appointments.

All central members have a rich resume of successes, doesn't mean they are not corrupt but it does mean they are proven and competent.

Xi is investment minded, Li is about farmers and workers. Xi passes market reforms, while Li like to see land and social programs for the rural poor. So in essence China has the "opposition" and the "ruling" party both passing laws and making reforms.

All this is fueled by social and economic changes, reform in everything but name.

I can understand that people of China are satisfied with its current economic policies and growth, and they just don't want to rock the boat. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all the voice of dissent must be crushed. If the party is doing right things and they have popular support of people, then what is the FEAR for any criticizing opinion? In any case, don't you think criticism is healthy for a balanced growth and for taking corrective actions wherever necessary?

Conservative society and obedience is all fine, but that doesn't mean a grown up adult cannot question their leaders!! Aren't the people of China real stakeholders of China? It is their country, they live there and they are the ones who are rightful owners of their country, their fate is intertwined with China, so, why shouldn't they have any say in the running of their country? Why any citizen of China questioning and/or criticizing CCP or any of its officials need to be marked as a traitor and put behind bars? And why their family members need to be targeted for their action? Don't you think such things are reflections of purely communist paranoia with voice of dissent, just like in many erstwhile communist countries?

And then comes the question, do you think eventually CCP will suffer the same fate as their counterparts in other erstwhile communist countries, if they don't allow political reforms?

Chinese communist party fell in 1972 with Mao's death. The current government is not the same government, just in name. Priorities and method for governing have changed, everything has changed.

Voice of dissent is fine, but there is foreign influence manipulating things. America wants to contain China at all cost. We can have a voice when that's settled, at this moment we are still under siege by America, it's all hands on deck or go down with the ship.

Just look at Ukraine, they won't be advancing in this decade, they are out of the small play ground they currently occupy, and right into the realm of Sub Saharan Africa territory.

As a side note, please don't use CCP anymore, it's just the government of China, there is no CCP elite, 90% of all central members are first generation, 96% of all billionaires are first generation, 8-% generals are first generation, in the land of single party rule, it's everyman for himself, no election means prestige means crap, it's all about ruthlessness, intelligence, accomplishments and determination.

Chinese people do partake in government, instead of voting, we join the government, the government is made up of the people not a ruling elite. Nobody stays on one job for too long.

For a diverse country like India democracy was the best option, probably only option. As I have mentioned earlier, ours is not yet a mature democracy, but we are certainly ironing out its deficiencies, and we are ready to give it more time. And it is not off the rack from UK, we have customized it as per our needs, you have to follow local level elections to understand that.

However, I was interested to know what China is planning for its future, is it going to remain a one-party rule? Is it going to reform, if yes, then what kind of changes we can expect? What system people of China think suitable for them going forward?

Any input from @Chinese-Dragon , @Edison Chen and @ChineseTiger1986 on this?

If you say it works for India then it works, I can't judge, I'm not informed on the matter.

Lastly think outside the box, liberal democracy is not the only way to go. We can have authoritarian and freedom at the same time.

Contradiction? Not really, it happened actually for a brief period in late Qing dynasty. The Qing government was so drained of its strength that freedom in speech and mostly everything was more or less there.

But this will happen again, however this time, it's the Chinese people that will be so powerful, that the government will become our instrument for glory and prosperity. It's already happening, business people and intellectuals as well as people in various fields are standing up for themselves, and the government can't do anything, because they are respected, but most of all they hold real tangible power that makes them not untouchable but hard to deal.

Again the government isn't united, one man's enemy is another's friend, the power struggle is the Chinese way of voting, this power struggle is the Chinese guarantee of freedom. It's a lot more secure than a few words on paper.




As to reforms, the law is slowly but surely going to be independent from the party, the government is losing grip on the market as new private companies become increasingly powerful, the policy makers must obey the people's wishes because those that didn't are exposed for things that are really not a reflection on his politics, like Women, which come on any man would have a hard time to pass up.

All these things contribute to the new Chinese state, it's not very detailed, but try to think for a moment that perhaps there is another way, and that way is the Chinese way. Our 2000 year old hegemony wasn't just for show, the Chinese way is the right way, it's proven.