No One Can Seperate Islam and Pakistan: Gen. Kayani

[gubbi]

as this is internal affair, you can carry on and stop dragging this silly discussion further

i dont see Pakistanis going on indian forums and talking about indian federation

Of course it is an internal matter for Pakistan. however you fail to take one important fact which concerns India.

GoI will only talk to the GoP, provided some conditions are met. However, this power struggle between the "establishment" and the government of the day in Pakistan leads to confusion as to whether the prominent power (read establishment) will respect and act upon the agreements reached between the GoI and GoP. We all dont want another Kargil now, do we?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

nobody said we NEED to talk to india in the first place.....I would personally be against any talks at this time, as long as india doesnt bring about any confidence building measures.


but that is just my view.

 

[gubbi]

nobody said we NEED to talk to india in the first place.....I would personally be against any talks at this time, as long as india doesnt bring about any confidence building measures.


but that is just my view.

Fortunately, your Govt thinks otherwise. So does the rest of the world.
The point is, GoI is concerned that if ever talks take place with GoP, would the establishment support that and not renegade on deals like they did in Kargil?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Fortunately, your Govt thinks otherwise. So does the rest of the world.
The point is, GoI is concerned that if ever talks take place with GoP, would the establishment support that and not renegade on deals like they did in Kargil?

Well, our government has little backing or credibility. But they are the democratically elected government, so I am not in a position to make the official policy. Rest assured, my views differ COMPLETELY with theirs.

(hence I clearly said those were my views)


As I said earlier, now is not an appropriate time for any talks with india --especially after the tone and language they have used, not to mention the fact that india is using Afghanistan in order to destabilize Pakistan (as noted by our Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, Interior Minister, and Official Army Spokesperson)

I would be very against any formal talks between both countries. Now is not an appropriate or conducive environment. But anyways, lets see what happens.









p.s. the word is "renege" not "renegade"

 

[pakdefender]

This thread is proof that Islam and Pakistan both give indians a lot of heart burn. Its best for india and Pakistan to not have any dialogue or any contacts

 

[pakdefender]

indian heart burn about Pakistan can also be gauged from a simple statment that cricketer Shoaib Malik one said after a win.

All he said after winning a match was that we thank the mulsims who prayed for our win and that was enough to give a lot , I mean a LOT of heart burn to the internet resident Pakistan hating indian corwd.

That should tell us something about indian anamosity towards Pakistan

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

lets worry about ourselves and our nation first.....they can show whatever animosity they have to whomever. In the end, does it affect us even one bit? We also need to focus on our own development and progress as a nation. Pakistan was a gift by the Spiritual and Gifted Founders of Pakistan. We must show our gratitude and never forget their legacies and the values bequeathed upon us by them and of course by our respective faiths.


as for the hindoostan, you could cancel diplomatic relations with them tomorrow, and the only people who would be upset would be the Sikh Khatri bhaiyon aar bayno, as Pakistan (especially Lahore) is holy to them.

everything else -- quite negligible.

 

[pakdefender]

I am sad to hear that.

It is my life's burning ambition to make friends and influence people (like you) out here.

Cheers, Doc

perhaps you can start by influencing you OWN country men who have this kind of a mindset:

One Indian reader (a doctor, no less!) wrote from Australia to say that every time he heard of yet another terrorist attack in Pakistan, he raised a celebratory glass of wine.

Taken from:
DAWN.COM | Columnists | An incoming barrage from India

 

[gromell]

he is just keeping the children happy. Islam is already being separated from Pakistan, unfortunate it may sound.

 

[pakdefender]

nope , people's faith in Pakistan is as strong as ever and none can take it away.

Jahalat should never be mixed with faith and I feel that now we are not the right track.

 

[gubbi]

Well, our government has little backing or credibility. But they are the democratically elected government, so I am not in a position to make the official policy. Rest assured, my views differ COMPLETELY with theirs.

A democratically elected govt has little backing or credibility?
You see, that exactly is the problem.

As I said earlier, now is not an appropriate time for any talks with india --especially after the tone and language they have used, not to mention the fact that india is using Afghanistan in order to destabilize Pakistan (as noted by our Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, Interior Minister, and Official Army Spokesperson)

I would be very against any formal talks between both countries. Now is not an appropriate or conducive environment. But anyways, lets see what happens.

Please do show us the evidence of Indian involvement in "destabilizing" Pakistan. Oh and spare us the drama of looking for an opportune moment or appropriate forum to "out" the evidence.

Anyway, you said it right that conditions are not conducive for any talks. But where you are wrong is that the onus is not on India but on Pakistan to deliver on its promises. Now its upto the Govt of the day to do that. If they do not have enough authority (how paradoxical) or power or are not in a position to do so, then it does not bode well for the future of Pakistan.

p.s. the word is "renege" not "renegade"

Thanks for the correction. My mistake.

 

[pakdefender]

The war effort has full backing of the people since people have come to undestand the folly of takfiri ideology and the terrorist bastards who follow it.

Indian desings of using religon againt Pakistan are being thwarted and the COAS remarks are spot on. Gen Kiani is far more sensible than his predecessor.

 

[vsdoc]

Please understand one thing.

As a human being, someone's father, someone's husband, someone's brother, someone's son, my heart bleeds for innocent Pakistanis who are dying in their hundreds today.

Nothing even the most kattar Pakistani can say, can foster enough hatred in me to change that.

However, by the Grace of God, I have not lost anyone because of violence fomented and perpetrated by you country in mine.

I cannot say the same would apply to Indians who sadly have.

So as an Indian, I and other Indians rightly feel that you guys are sadly reaping what your establishment has sown for the past many decades as its lookeast policy.

And still continues to coddle and condone the same "assets" (read: the so called "Punjabi" Taliban) who have not yet gone rabid and started biting back, moving them from place to place to keep them safe and ready to continue their mission once (I say, IF) your TTP is taken care of.

It has nothing to do with Islam ..... we have close to 170 million of our own, loyal and patriotic Indians first and foremost, who believe in the pre-eminence of India and not in that of your so-called Ummah.

It has everything to do with Pakistan and its notion of Islam.

And THAT is what this topic is all about and the reason for whatever Indian participation you are seeing.

If you stopped fingering us, we really wouldn't be bothered with you, and shut you away from our thoughts ...... just as one rolls up the power windows and puts on the A/C and turns up the steereo when surrounded by street urchins peering in at a traffic light.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

A democratically elected govt has little backing or credibility?
You see, that exactly is the problem.

I can name for you dozens of democratically elected governments worldwide which lost their credibility due to certain action (or inaction)

Richard Nixon ring a bell? Indira Ghandi?

Please do show us the evidence of Indian involvement

According to reports, a dossier was handed over to indian during Sharm El Sheikh meetings.

in "destabilizing" Pakistan. Oh and spare us the drama of looking for an opportune moment or appropriate forum to "out" the evidence.

i'm just a messenger, son.

Your own friends aka Taliban are doing a far better job. Thats why your COAS has to resort to making such statements to rally people's support for this war. How humiliating that is, your people need the COAS to make such a statement to ask for support rather than the people supporting the efforts of PA just on the merit of such an operation!

Humiliating that an internationally and locally respected and acclaimed Military Official who happens to be our COAS is making statements about an ongoin war; asserting that Pakistan will succeed in its bid to root out extremism from the country in cooperation with the nation and the media?


Are you obtuse or what?

Anyway, you said it right that conditions are not conducive for any talks. But where you are wrong is that the onus is not on India but on Pakistan to deliver on its promises.

and I said that we should focus on ourselves only.....we have nothing to gain from delivering "promises" to india --save for helping to solve the bombbay drama --which we have been doing despite delay tactics and games by the indians

If they do not have enough authority (how paradoxical) or power or are not in a position to do so, then it does not bode well for the future of Pakistan.

and that takes me back to my original point....we dont need you indians to analyze or snoop around in affairs that arent yours

worry about the social and economic problems plaguing your own country, such as the poverty, HIV prevention etc. We dont require analyses, especially by indians.

Thanks for the correction. My mistake.

Yup, no problem.

 

[gubbi]

I can name for you dozens of democratically elected governments worldwide which lost their credibility due to certain action (or inaction)

Richard Nixon ring a bell? Indira Ghandi?

Nice examples, but you also fail to notice that in these particular cases you mentioned, though people lost faith in their leaders, they did not loose faith in the democratic process or the govt. World of difference here matey.
Btw, its "Gandhi". I assume it must be a typo on your part.

According to reports, a dossier was handed over to indian during Sharm El Sheikh meetings.

Wasnt it refuted somewhere on these very forums? No "dossier" was given and all those statements were retracted or denied.

i'm just a messenger, son.

Of course you are! Nothing personal here mate.

Humiliating that an internationally and locally respected and acclaimed Military Official who happens to be our COAS is making statements about an ongoin war; asserting that Pakistan will succeed in its bid to root out extremism from the country in cooperation with the nation and the media?

Are you obtuse or what?

No one here is denying the important role being played by the PA in their efforts to root out those talitubby scumbags. However, what I was pointing out was that a large section of the population has to be pacified by your COAS by making such statements.

and I said that we should focus on ourselves only.....we have nothing to gain from delivering "promises" to india --save for helping to solve the bombbay drama --which we have been doing despite delay tactics and games by the indians

Not only India, but other countries also demand actions from Pakistan, failing which, the consequences wouldn't exactly be pleasant for Pakistan.

and that takes me back to my original point....we dont need you indians to analyze or snoop around in affairs that arent yours

Of course, its your internal matter. But pray, do tell us, who are we supposed to talk to and expect to uphold your end of the deal, if ever we reach one.

worry about the social and economic problems plaguing your own country, such as the poverty eradication, HIV prevention etc. We dont require analyses, especially by indians.

I do believe a lot of work is going on with regards to the social problems in India. There is progress, fortunately. But thanks for your concern anyway.