No 'Dhanush' Howitzer for the Army?

[sancho]

More over,as you yourself stated earlier,the industrial benefits it provide in the long term simply can not be overlooked.That's why I have been in favor of Dhanus being inducted from the very beginning even if it is slightly inferior to the L52 systems available in the international market.

If it's ready and serves the requirements of the forces, it's of course a great addition, but my point was that we shouldn't believe that we have any fully indigenous development in the howitzer regard at this point and we shouldn't take things only for the reasons that it's called indigenous, but for the fact that it serves the national security in the first place.

 

[Omega007]

If it's ready and serves the requirements of the forces, it's of course a great addition, but my point was that we shouldn't believe that we have any fully indigenous development in the howitzer regard at this point and we shouldn't take things only for the reasons that it's called indigenous, but for the fact that it serves the national security in the first place.

I don't give a **** about indigenous and all anymore...............at least not when the case being howitzers for the Indian Army.But my point is,indigenous or not,Dhanus is here,it has already cleared most of the user trials,the requisite industrial complex and supply chain is present and most importantly,the Army is quite familiar with system.And taking all these points into consideration,I think Dhanus should be inducted.And as for the barrel being concerned,it can be upgraded to a L52 one anytime in future when it becomes available - either from in house development or from abroad doesn't really matter much.

 

[Bang Galore]

I guess you are mixing up some discussions of us. I never said that we have to do it alone, on the contrary, I am all for more joint developments even if our contribution is lower. The point were we often differ is the view of the privat industry, where you have just blind faith in them to be the only solution and where I have a more realistic view by looking at what they actually aim on. If you look a bit closer to the differences between the TATA / Denel JV and the way of Bharat Forge you will understand it too.
The one has only invested a minimum and only because a proper tender was send out, without any reasonable R&D behind it and basic licence production as the result. While the other has invested big times to own the knowledge and experience of a foreign company, as an investment for the future. That gives them the short term capability, to produce the already developed howitzer in India, but also futur capability to develop new versions on their own. TATA's way is just a short term measure here, without long term interests, contrary to Bharat Forge.
On the other side, TATA teamed up with DRDO for the FICV tender, they put far more investments and R&D in that project, but also gain from systems and knowledge DRDO can contribute, besides taking available off the shelf parts from the foreign market. That project shows the ideal way of how projects in India should go!

- jointly developed by government and private industry
- with long term interests in the Indian defence sector in mind
- developed according to the requirements of the forces
- managed in a proper manner
- developed in a simple way


So it's not about playing privat industry against government owned once, but about getting the maximum out of both for the Indian forces. We have to get more competition for the government owned companies, have to get the privat industry more commited for the long term and even better to get them work together!

I have no blind faith in anyone, however I think manufacturing in India is imperative. I'm aware of TATA-Denel bit & the limited part that Tata has played in it. I'm also aware that Bharat Forge took a financial risk in buying up a complete line. However, it is my opinion that for Indian interests, either will work though I favour Bharat Forge here. A company of that size (Tata, Bharat Forge) can always buy the technology & expertise needed if such were not available in India. That is why I think private companies have a better stand here, PSU's have enormous restrictions on who they employ & how they get technology. I also think DRDO should work directly with companies like Bharat Forge, Tata etc (something that the new RM has already said), a lot of DRDO failures have been due to poor worksmanship and not because there was a design fault.

Investments will follow once you open the door. Don't you think it odd that when having companies with reputation in metallurgy like Bharat Forge right here, we look at buying even things like assault rifles from foreign sources? Our procurement planning has been beyond ridiculous. Allow Bharat Forge to set up a plant for building assault rifles (not open to private sector yet) and we will soon know if they are up to scratch.

 

[帅的一匹]

Seems the indigenous Howitzer is over-sized, it reduce the mobility to deploy along the China-India border.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

This is pure hogwash, the IA have placed a firm order for 114 with a option for a further 300+ units. This is non-negotiable, I don't know what the motives are behind this news but t wouldn't be the first time the Indian media knowingly or unknowingly engaged in misinformation campaigns.

Well the source is The Hindu and its reputation is quite high.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Joint development is the only shortest way for acquiring high tech.But even if it comes to joint development we dont have much in our hands to share with our foreign partners.
In Barak 8 Israel can easily develop their own even if we dont give dual pulse motor.Same things also happens in the case of FGFA.
Like you said Except that decent heli industry(perhaps that is why GoI cancelled foreign heli purchasing)we dont have anything in our hand for creating fighter tech, neither money nor tech and zero infra.
First of all we need a large pool of aero experts,technicians ,skilled labours etc.Our HAL cant absorb entire talents and outcome is that they will seek jobs in other nations since we dont have any aerobased industry except HAL (too in publiic field) ,Our private industries dont have any capacity to create another HAL (forget about LM or Sukhoi Corp or Dassault Corp) combinedly.
So if we can attract some aerobased industry in to India at least we can stop the flow of talents to outside of India and create a large pool of aeromanufacturing experts in India itself like we created Computer enginerrs.

Kaveri engine is a dead episode .We dont need to reinvent another GE 414 .Lets they findout their mistake and create a solution for next gen engine for AMCA.

There are only 2 things to make HAL/DRDO capable.

1. Make it like a Private company, where they can hire students from universities all around the world. Ability to hire and fire workers just like NASA .
2. Hire people from foreign companies who have experience by offering them salary and citizenship. The organisational hierarchy must be limited
US does the same, and all the world's best minds work together to design the world's best product for USA alone.

 

[SrNair]

There are only 2 things to make HAL/DRDO capable.

1. Make it like a Private company, where they can hire students from universities all around the world. Ability to hire and fire workers just like NASA .
2. Hire people from foreign companies who have experience by offering them salary and citizenship. The organisational hierarchy must be limited
US does the same, and all the world's best minds work together to design the world's best product for USA alone.

That is also a possibility.But HAL is not a LM neither we are US.Once we did that method .and its out come was HF Marut and it was designed by a German Arronautical engineer Kurt Tank.But our own babus killed our efforts.
Now a days for hiring best talents you should give that much of payscale.One of my friend joined as an engineer in HAL and his salary is just 35000rs.HAL present capability cant allow them a payscale more than 5 lakhs per month.

But like @sancho said JV would be the most desirable way.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

That is also a possibility.But HAL is not a LM neither we are US.Once we did that method .and its out come was HF Marut and it was designed by a German Arronautical engineer Kurt Tank.But our own babus killed our efforts.
Now a days for hiring best talents you should give that much of payscale.One of my friend joined as an engineer in HAL and his salary is just 35000rs.HAL present capability cant allow them a payscale more than 5 lakhs per month.

But like @sancho said JV would be the most desirable way.

True. R&D in India does not have a high payscale other than a few firms. I work in R&D in a private company, I am treated no less than a IT guy. :/

 

[sancho]

However, it is my opinion that for Indian interests, either will work though I favour Bharat Forge here.

Of course both will work, the question is only what is the aim and what is the Indian interest. TATA licence producing a foreign gun to win the tender and get low end production jobs in India or like Bharat Forge not only aiming on production in India, but on complete R&D too. The latter is exactly what the government owned companies do as well, so if you do prefer Bharat Forge's way, you can't be against the way of DRDO or HAL either, because that is the way to gain actual know how and experience of developing such arms for India, while the licence productions are always limited to the extend of critical ToT.

A company of that size (Tata, Bharat Forge) can always buy the technology & expertise needed if such were not available in India.

"Can" but they "won't", unless they commit themselfs to the Indian defence market as a developer! That's the difference that we see in this case between TATA and Bharat Forge, while TATA is doing it far better in the FICV tender. So it's not like they will do it all the time, but ONLY according their (mainly financial) interests and not with the interests of the country or the forces in mind.

 

[sancho]

But like @sancho said JV would be the most desirable way.

It's not only desirable, but the next logical step!

For decades we had options to go for Russian, Israel or European arms procurements, today we have options to go for Russian, Israel or European arms JV's with more benefits for us. We even try to get the US closer to this way and all the world is wide open for us to get credible partners in so many projects if we want. That's a crucial advantage of India that hardly other countries have, because they are limited to certain partners only, be it because of ideology like NATO countries, or because they are limited to certain partners only like China or Russia.
The simple fact that Russia took the chance to increase it's partnering options in the recent years, the minute the chance opened up to them because of the improved ties to Europe, shows how desirable it is to have a wide range of potential partners, even if you have the capability to develop arms and techs on your own. The problem is only, we have to get over our pride and the limitated point of view, than an indigenous project by an Indian company is the only way, while a JV (even if far more capable and beneficial for the forces) is not.

 

[Bang Galore]

Of course both will work, the question is only what is the aim and what is the Indian interest. TATA licence producing a foreign gun to win the tender and get low end production jobs in India or like Bharat Forge not only aiming on production in India, but on complete R&D too. The latter is exactly what the government owned companies do as well, so if you do prefer Bharat Forge's way, you can't be against the way of DRDO or HAL either, because that is the way to gain actual know how and experience of developing such arms for India, while the licence productions are always limited to the extend of critical ToT.

Not against anybody or any organisation, just think the very way such oreganisations function makes it far more difficult for PSU's to be both cost effective as well as be aggressive in acquiring technology. Not necessarily their fault, the set up makes it unworkable for the most part.

"Can" but they "won't", unless they commit themselfs to the Indian defence market as a developer! That's the difference that we see in this case between TATA and Bharat Forge, while TATA is doing it far better in the FICV tender. So it's not like they will do it all the time, but ONLY according their (mainly financial) interests and not with the interests of the country or the forces in mind.

Nobody does it for free, PSU's dont have anyone to answer to, that's why they can pass of their inefficiencies as being the result of working for the national interest. Nobody can work & invest without atleast a slight assurance of getting returns. Or a fair chance at competition.

 

[sancho]

Not against anybody or any organisation, just think the very way such oreganisations function makes it far more difficult for PSU's to be both cost effective as well as be aggressive in acquiring technology. Not necessarily their fault, the set up makes it unworkable for the most part.

And nobody denies that it's more difficult for them, the fact however remains, whenever the forces actually require something and the MoD pushes that forward to HAL and co. they have to develop it and can't just refuse like the private companies does.

IAF needs Avro replacements => MoD tells HAL to develop or licence produce a replacement => does it, not matter if profitable or not
IAF needs Avro replacements => MoD asks privat industry to develop or licence produce a replacement => reject it if it's not profitable enough

So you have the national interest that the government owned companies have to follow if they are properly guided by the MoD and the profit related interest of the privat companies that can go even above the national interest. Too extreems, while the ideal situation lies somewhere in between![/QUOTE]

 

[Bang Galore]

And nobody denies that it's more difficult for them, the fact however remains, whenever the forces actually require something and the MoD pushes that forward to HAL and co. they have to develop it and can't just refuse like the private companies does.

IAF needs Avro replacements => MoD tells HAL to develop or licence produce a replacement => does it, not matter if profitable or not
IAF needs Avro replacements => MoD asks privat industry to develop or licence produce a replacement => reject it if it's not profitable enough

So you have the national interest that the government owned companies have to follow if they are properly guided by the MoD and the profit related interest of the privat companies that can go even above the national interest. Too extreems, while the ideal situation lies somewhere in between!

That's funny. You have used that logic before & I pointed out that it was a flawed argument. Not profitable? That's not something HAL has ever to worry about. Nobody will be fired nor will it be closed down because it is unprofitable. Private companies don't have the luxury of unlimited tax payer's money backing them up. They have to work within normal parameters or risk being shut down. Ask a private company to develop a replacement for anything & fund them even a fraction of what HAL will get, they will do it far more efficiently. Of that I have no doubt.

 

[sancho]

That's funny. You have used that logic before & I pointed out that it was a flawed argument. Not profitable? That's not something HAL has ever to worry about.

Why is it funny when you have one side of the industry ignoring the national interest for financial profit? And we are not talking about them going into loss, it's about them rejecting to commit themselfs in projects, where they think the profit is not enough.
And yes HAL has not to worry about, but neither has a choice! Even if a project would mean a financial loss for them, because the order is too small, they would have to do it and can't reject it, since they are bound to produce or develop for the national interest in the first place.

So as long as the privat industry is not ready to fully commit themself for the nation interest and they are no solution for our problem and that is very visible in the current issue of the Avro replacement. Bharat Forge shows this commitment now in the howitzer field and I'm sure they will get rewarded for that with some orders sooner or later and that's when privat industry players turn out to be real alternatives for India!

 

[Bang Galore]

Why is it funny when you have one side of the industry ignoring the national interest for financial profit? And we are not talking about them going into loss, it's about them rejecting to commit themselfs in projects, where they think the profit is not enough.
And yes HAL has not to worry about, but neither has a choice! Even if a project would mean a financial loss for them, because the order is too small, they would have to do it and can't reject it, since they are bound to produce or develop for the national interest in the first place.

The "funny" part is because profit & loss are subjects of purely acedemic discussion for companies like HAL. It is simply irrelevant when they are being funded with tax payer money. Heck they can even take an order for a single aircraft if it was asked of them. Comparing with private companies for whom loss can be an existential issue is weird. If tax payers funded the same amount (probably much less) to private companies, they too would do the same.