News on Pakistan's F16 Block/50 or 52

[imiakhtar]

yes may be but they are exceeding in this technology very fast!
the JF 17 is quite good, and J 10 is way ahead, the specs of the J10 say it to be as good as the F16z the only question how reliable these claims are!
this can not be found until we have them but i hope it will be fine, moreover it is good to have a moderate plane from china (as there are no problems) then a super plane we will never have from US (as it always seems to be the case with US, they wont be giving us the F35z so better be going with the FC20z though it may not be a match but still it will be something that we have)

what do you think

regards

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again. It's one thing building HP laptops but it is a totally different ball game to building your next generation X-band radar.

In order to progress on that front, China needs R+D (Research and Development). Suffice it to say, this is almost non-existent hence you have the chinese shipping their undergraduates off to premier institutions (particularly in the UK and Aus) where there is a solid research base. At some universities in the UK, almost half of the engineering and Comp Sci students are Chinese.

Why do you think China relies on Russia so much?

 

[notorious_eagle]

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again. It's one thing building HP laptops but it is a totally different ball game to building your next generation X-band radar.

In order to progress on that front, China needs R+D (Research and Development). Suffice it to say, this is almost non-existent hence you have the chinese shipping their undergraduates off to premier institutions (particularly in the UK and Aus) where there is a solid research base. At some universities in the UK, almost half of the engineering and Comp Sci students are Chinese.

Why do you think China relies on Russia so much?

Do some basic research atleast, China has the second highest R&D budget in the world and they are increasing it every year at a faster pace than US R&D budget.

 

[MastanKhan]

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again. It's one thing building HP laptops but it is a totally different ball game to building your next generation X-band radar.

In order to progress on that front, China needs R+D (Research and Development). Suffice it to say, this is almost non-existent hence you have the chinese shipping their undergraduates off to premier institutions (particularly in the UK and Aus) where there is a solid research base. At some universities in the UK, almost half of the engineering and Comp Sci students are Chinese.

Why do you think China relies on Russia so much?

Hi,

You are correct---chinese are atleast 10 to 15 years behind the americans or more so.

The best jet engine that china has for its fighter may still not compete with the engine of the original F 16 of 30 plus years ago.

 

[fatman17]

Hi,

You are correct---chinese are atleast 10 to 15 years behind the americans or more so.

The best jet engine that china has for its fighter may still not compete with the engine of the original F 16 of 30 plus years ago.

i agree but they are catching-on fast now and the gap will close!

 

[saiko]

yes may be but they are exceeding in this technology very fast!
the JF 17 is quite good, and J 10 is way ahead, the specs of the J10 say it to be as good as the F16z the only question how reliable these claims are!
this can not be found until we have them but i hope it will be fine, moreover it is good to have a moderate plane from china (as there are no problems) then a super plane we will never have from US (as it always seems to be the case with US, they wont be giving us the F35z so better be going with the FC20z though it may not be a match but still it will be something that we have)

what do you think

regards

I think from Pakistan's point of view, the FC-20 / JF-17 high/low combination is a pretty good way to go. From a flight performance point of view the FC-20 may well be better than early block F-16s (which were the most maneuverable) and with western avionics upgrades the FC-20 could prove to be better than the F-16 B50/52 for Pakistan. So it won't be a downgrade and would be more sanction proof than the F-16.

I think if I could remake the PAF I would go with a bigger twin-engined fighter for the "high", mainly because the key to dealing with whatever 5th gen fighter India will try to deploy will be having an airframe with a relatively large radome that can be upgraded with increasingly powerful radars. Leading edge miniaturization of T/R modules for AESA radars will remain a Western monopoly so China and by extension Pakistan will always be one step behind here. The USSR was always one step behind as well in the latter stage of the Cold War - and they got around it by going big. I think that has to realistically be Pakistan's strategy.

India will enjoy increasing access to Western technology if the MRCA is any indication and I don't think it makes sense for the PAF to follow that route. The trend is towards more and more BVR combat the main focus of money should be towards missiles and radar. A large airframe can get you increased radar performance at lower tech levels and lower cost.

I don't think it's wise for Pakistan to go the stealth route. Money can be more efficiently spent elsewhere.

 

[saiko]

Neither in weapons.

Frankly, people here compare the AIM 12- C-5 with the R-7. Indians here respond that the R-77 has greater range, but its an old missile without much in the name of improvements over the years.

While it may exceed in pure range, kill probability will be lower than that of the C-5. And the chinese copy SD-10 would be even worse off.

The R-77 has better flight performance characteristics (range, maneuverability, etc) but I would really doubt it's signals processing and seeker technology is better than on the AMRAAM. I don't know that for fact, but given the disparity of Western/Russian tech levels in radar and avionics I doubt it's any different on the missiles - in fact it's more likely that it's worse considering they are now working on a platform many times smaller, which is always harder.

And range is useful - but only if you can afford to waste missiles. Nobody firing a MRAAM at max range is going to have any real expectation of getting a kill. It can however give you an advantage and increase the odds that you will win. So that's not a bad thing.

 

[Arsalan]

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again. It's one thing building HP laptops but it is a totally different ball game to building your next generation X-band radar.

In order to progress on that front, China needs R+D (Research and Development). Suffice it to say, this is almost non-existent hence you have the chinese shipping their undergraduates off to premier institutions (particularly in the UK and Aus) where there is a solid research base. At some universities in the UK, almost half of the engineering and Comp Sci students are Chinese.

Why do you think China relies on Russia so much?

what do you mean by China need R n D!!

brother they are second in the list of R n D budget!

and about developind a laptop and radar being different things, who disagree??
but dear its not only laptops they are making! if so why were the americans terrified when china got one of there spy planes and got into it! the americanc were threatning, pressurizing and even begging the chinaes not to do so, the reason? they knew that the chines will copy it soon!

what about the C802 said to be quite similar to the harpoon!

waht about there cruise missiles being like the US ones??

its not so simple brother, , , do research about these facts!!

 

[Contrarian]

The R-77 has better flight performance characteristics (range, maneuverability, etc) but I would really doubt it's signals processing and seeker technology is better than on the AMRAAM. I don't know that for fact, but given the disparity of Western/Russian tech levels in radar and avionics I doubt it's any different on the missiles - in fact it's more likely that it's worse considering they are now working on a platform many times smaller, which is always harder.

I meant the lag of the R-77 exactly in Signal processing and seeker technology.

And range is useful - but only if you can afford to waste missiles. Nobody firing a MRAAM at max range is going to have any real expectation of getting a kill. It can however give you an advantage and increase the odds that you will win. So that's not a bad thing.

Yeah, a fantastic thing that the Su can carry a dozen missiles. But still, my point was about the lag of Russian AAM's compared to Western AAM's, particularly as new versions of the R-77 have not been fielded for a while now. All hopes on the new missile being developed-the R-77M(supposedly ramjet) and the R-74.

 

[My-Analogous]

Total F16 in PAF is as below

32 (40-8 loss) F16 A/B in 1983
14 F16A/B (original built for pakistan & for goodwill US handedover to Pakistan in 2009)
18 F16 C/D (12 already received)
14 F16 C/D (all handedover in 2011)

Conclusion

Pakistan have
60 F16 A/B
12 F16 C/D

Total 72 F16 (20 in pipeline) + 4 more left in option

 

[Shahzad834]

Total F16 in PAF is as below

32 (40-8 loss) F16 A/B in 1983
14 F16A/B (original built for pakistan & for goodwill US handedover to Pakistan in 2009)
18 F16 C/D (12 already received)
14 F16 C/D (all handedover in 2011)

Conclusion

Pakistan have
60 F16 A/B
12 F16 C/D

Total 72 F16 (20 in pipeline) + 4 more left in option

The third LOA provides for the Mid-Life Update (MLU) of their current fleet of forty-six aircraft: four of these aircraft are in Fort Worth undergoing Trial Verification Installation, which is part of the MLU program. Under the MLU LOA, Pakistan is procuring Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits for the thirty-two original F-16A/B aircraft and thirty-five MLU avionics upgrade kits for the current fleet (including three of the recently transferred EDA aircraft).

There is an option on the contract to procure eleven additional MLU avionics upgrade kits for the remaining eleven aircraft. Pakistan has not yet exercised this option, but plans to do so at a future date. The Falcon STAR structural upgrade is very similar to that provided to other F-16A/B customers. Falcon STAR replaces critical structural components in the F-16 required to return the A/B airframe to a structural life of 8,000 spectrum hours. Falcon STAR is required to keep the original thirty two PAF F-16A/Bs air worthy.

The Pakistan MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide the Pakistan Block 15A/B aircraft with many of the same capabilities as the new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring.

The MLU kit replaces most of the 1980s avionics in the Block 15s with newer, advanced avionics systems from the Block 52 F-16s. The MLU upgrade kits will include:

- APG-68(V)9 radar;
- Embedded GPS/INS (EGI);
- Link-16 data link;
- APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF);
- Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map;
- ALQ- 211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pod;
- Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting;
- Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod;
- Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS);
- Reconnaissance Pod capability;
- improved avionics systems;
- JDAM capability;
- EGBU capability;
- AIM-120 AMRAAM capability;
-and AGM-84 Harpoon capability.

While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity. Overall, the MLU program will extend the service life of Pakistan’s original F- 16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the Pakistan Air Force to conduct Close Air Support and night precision attack missions. I would like to highlight that in parallel with the significant improvement in weapon accuracy gained by precision guided munitions like JDAM, there is the potential to dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties.


Regarding program status, the first four MLU aircraft are undergoing work in Fort Worth, Texas now. The USAF schedule for delivery of these aircraft is December 2011. The delivery dates for the remaining aircraft are being refined due to the recent stop work.

please define theses terms
APX
JDAM
EGBU
AGM-84 Harpoon

 

[Mani2020]

please define theses terms
APX
JDAM
EGBU
AGM-84 Harpoon

AGM-84 Harpoon

The Harpoon is an all-weather, over-the-horizon, anti-ship missile system, developed and manufactured by McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing Defense, Space & Security)

and the air launched version is called AGM-84

JDAM

The Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) is a guidance kit that converts unguided bombs, or "dumb bombs" into all-weather "smart" munitions