Need of A Submarine Launched Intercontinental Ballistic Missile for India?

[Echo_419]

Why do these articles mention china as our Arch-Rival I mean threat is ok but Arch-Rival what is this

 

[king of pop]

Trident and Ohio sub?????

i mean trident are bastion for follow on atv submirine and we can cancel 2 akula sub. deal in favour of 1/2 Ohio class submirine (16*trident )

 

[RISING SUN]

I don't know what is wrong with some posters. They never leave any chance to embarrass India and Indian posters as a whole. They wish things which are not only impossible but also laughable. They do it intentionally or not, I don't know. It's a forum, Senior members should take lead here & should give them advice how to react and post our genuine thoughts while while displaying the true Indian identity. We should increase awareness of the post's importance how it matters. No need to bash any one for mistakes but advice must be given. It will improve our quality as a poster.

No offense any one, just my opinion.

I don't know what is wrong with some posters. They never leave any chance to embarrass India and Indian posters as a whole. They wish things which are not only impossible but also laughable. They do it intentionally or not, I don't know. It's a forum, Senior members should take lead here & should give them advice how to react and post our genuine thoughts while while displaying the true Indian identity. We should increase awareness of the post's importance how it matters. No need to bash any one for mistakes but advice must be given. It will improve our quality as a poster.

No offense any one, just my opinion.

 

[OrionHunter]

Why spend the Earth for a system that has no viable target? Whose a$$ are you gonna take out 10,000km away? There's the empty expanse of the North Pole though! Ice floes as targets for a billion dollar missile? Jeeez!

 

[Ayush]

We should go for them.

Perhaps after addressing the more important concerns.

 

[Nisha]

We need a long range SLBM......it makes strategic sense. A 1000 mile SLBM makes is of no use for a nation like China. Our susb would have to get close enough to launch in order to strike a valuable target. But getting that close to China, would put our subs in danger. A 10,000 mile SLBM would allow us to lurk anywhere and strike with surprise and still allow our subs to escape detection and re launch whenever wherever. Why is even being argued about? No if's, and's or but's......

 

[Screambowl]

yeah we tested brahmos yday but we dont have submarine to launch it.any idea when are we going to get one ?

The exact details are not yet known. The integration process might have started as the final test of K-15 was done in January.

We need a long range SLBM......it makes strategic sense. A 1000 mile SLBM makes is of no use for a nation like China. Our susb would have to get close enough to launch in order to strike a valuable target. But getting that close to China, would put our subs in danger. A 10,000 mile SLBM would allow us to lurk anywhere and strike with surprise and still allow our subs to escape detection and re launch whenever wherever. Why is even being argued about? No if's, and's or but's......

You are right but first we have to develop 8000km land based ICBM, once that clears the test, then only we can think of going further. Plus going for a true ICBM is a political decision.

 

[GURU DUTT]

what do you think, will there be any SLBM version of A-5, and can Arihant accommodate it?

well we dont need more than that as in near future we have onli two threats aka China & Pakistan whos landmass dosent requires to go beyond that range as we are not up agaisnt the USA , Euorope and yes Arihant is concieved with just that perpose in mind all else is just an eyewash it will have at least 6 SLBM or SLCM and that is enof for us to keep a good detterent aginst china for Pakistan we already have Kilo class & scorpenes in near future which will be having capacity to launch SLCM's of at least 500 Km

 

[Nisha]

well we dont need more than that as in near future we have onli two threats aka China & Pakistan whos landmass dosent requires to go beyond that range as we are not up agaisnt the USA , Euorope and yes Arihant is concieved with just that perpose in mind all else is just an eyewash it will have at least 6 SLBM or SLCM and that is enof for us to keep a good detterent aginst china for Pakistan we already have Kilo class & scorpenes in near future which will be having capacity to launch SLCM's of at least 500 Km

Dude! It doesn;t matter if China or Pakistan is right next door to you. YOu need missiles that give you the element of surpriss for the counter attack.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Dude! It doesn;t matter if China or Pakistan is right next door to you. YOu need missiles that give you the element of surpriss for the counter attack.

with deu respect Nisha ji Submarines and SLBM or SLCM's are conieved for that very purpose the thing is do we need a 10000 or say even 6000 Km range missile when we can target anywhere in china with a SLBM with 3500 KM range?

anyway Indian doctrine is simple we just need a neuke traid and a second strike capability and all things made publik dosent means that we dont have certain so called element of surprise be rest assured there is way much more than what meets the eye even the official ranges(as disclosed to press) of diff missiles tested are a bit diff Thanks

 

[Nisha]

with deu respect Nisha ji Submarines and SLBM or SLCM's are conieved for that very purpose the thing is do we need a 10000 or say even 6000 Km range missile when we can target anywhere in china with a SLBM with 3500 KM range?

anyway Indian doctrine is simple we just need a neuke traid and a second strike capability and all things made publik dosent means that we dont have certain so called element of surprise be rest assured there is way much more than what meets the eye even the official ranges(as disclosed to press) of diff missiles tested are a bit diff Thanks

I agree bebind the scenes, the range might be much longer. I hope so. As for the difference between 3500km and say 10,000km, it involves greater flexibility. A 3500km missile allows us to act within a certain area which can be targetted by anti subs and such weapon platforms. Compounding to this problem is the development of SATs that can detect subs from outer space. Tech is constantly changing.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I agree bebind the scenes, the range might be much longer. I hope so. As for the difference between 3500km and say 10,000km, it involves greater flexibility. A 3500km missile allows us to act within a certain area which can be targetted by anti subs and such weapon platforms. Compounding to this problem is the development of SATs that can detect subs from outer space. Tech is constantly changing.

well nish ji lookin at opwr interests and sphere of athurity (Arabean sea , Indian ocean& bay of bengal) the range of 3500 is miore than enof even if we have to attck any where in china or pakistan we dont need more than 3500 and we have that cabaility all tghe time it is takin cause owr scientist are bussy in minuerising the Missiles and warheads + we also have sats + worlds best sub hunter Platform and more are on the cards so be rest assured

 

[Dillinger]

@king of pop For the love of all that's holy, if you are going to post on such matters then please check whether the topic has already been mooted or not. There is a rather large thread on this already running. On topic @arp2041 @Ayush @samantk can further educate you. Most importantly would you please quit harping for purchasing systems such as the Ohio SSBNs or the Trident2.

To answer your question.

I would have to concur with your post. Most people are blindsiding the fact that in operational use a ballistic missile that is meant to cover China must be able to do so from all viable points in India, specially in the case of an article like the Agni-5 which is road mobile (unlike the previous Agni iterations where their rail-mobility would have restricted the flexibility of launch point options RELATIVELY). A road-mobile missile becomes specifically deadly if it indeed can target the intended enemy nation (in its entirety) from the length and breadth of our nation- in case that is not possible then the utility of said missile is somewhat reduced. Now one can always argue that the real range of a missile like the Agni-5 is dependent upon many factors including the payload that it is carrying BUT in a situation as dire as a nuclear exchange - the only kind of situation which would actually necessitate the real usage of such a weapon- you really want to be able to utilize the maximum throw-weight of your missiles. Lets be clear that not being able to hit say Harbin from Thiruvananthapuram if its loaded to its maximum payload (the distance between the two is 6292.7 Kilometers / 3395.5 Nautical Miles) does not make the Agni-5 any less potent in absolute terms BUT it does put a certain limit on the flexibility of the system in relative terms (AND WHEN THE STAKES ARE AS HIGH AS NUCLEAR WAR YOU REALLY WANT EVERY BIT OF POSSIBLE ADVANTAGE ON YOUR SIDE)- however marginal that limit maybe. So if we build upon the previous point- ideally you want MAXIMUM flexibility and options which will enhance the survivability of the delivery system assets. Not to mention in the case of our opponent choosing to engage in a comprehensive counter-force strike on us the further our assets are from the launch points of the missiles of the opponent the greater the window of opportunity for them to either be launched in reciprocal action or for them to be moved away from harm. So practically speaking a road-mobile A-5 which has a max disclosed range of 5500KM with its max. payload (max. payload becomes very relevant if you intend to arm the missile with MIRVs and decoys to protect said MIRVs against ABM systems) is the first step but an effective step nonetheless and one which increases the potential of our deterrence BUT we will need to increase the range of our ballistic missiles in concert with the development of functional MIRV systems.


When we move into the area of SLBMs then range becomes even more vital. The whole point of a SSBN is that its supposed to lay low and strike from far away, a nuclear submarine should not be forced to just loiter in the pond because of a limitation in the range of the ballistic missiles that comprise its strike package. The larger the operational area from where a SSBN can effectively target the opponent the harder it is for the opponent to track and/or kill it. The Americans are really that formidable not because of their super-carriers but rather because an Ohio class Submarine can target any of the major countries such as China or Russia from any corner of the world with overwhelming force- something that the Russians can still do but to a severely restricted level and something the Chinese still cannot do practically since they still do not have anything like the Typhoon class or Ohio class SSBN (although its just a matter of a few years till they bridge that gap to the FULL EXTENT). For our future SSBN force to be effective against a potential nuclear enemy they must be able to strike said enemy over a spectrum of all possible targets from an appreciable distance. For a SLBM to be truly effective it must really cross the 6000KM range. The K-15 and the initial K-4 variants are only fully optimal against a target like Pakistan. The PN cannot fan into an area extending 3000KM from their coastline and commit sufficient resources to hunt down an Arihant class sub specifically because they lack a nuclear hunter-killer sub and because the behemoth that the Indian navy is (in comparison) would be standing in the way. This would provide an Arihant sub with a relatively impenetrable zone from where to fire upon a target in Pakistan provided that they are using the K-4 while the utilization of the K-15 would require it to get dangerously close to Pakistani territorial waters. Again the advantage is relative, in both cases the Arihant could do its job and do it with a high probability of success BUT in the latter scenario with the K-15 the chances of success would be less in relative terms. In the case of the PRC even the K-4 AND its follow on version which also seems to be dubbed the K-4 (with a length of 12 meters rather than the 10 meter length of the initial K-4, a new SSBN class will probably be required to house the 2nd K-4 version due to its length) would both prove to be less than ideal with the max. range on the final K-4 iteration only reaching 5000KM. A completely effective system would require an SLBM that can hit from 6000-8000KM away. The range of such SLBMs should only be restricted by any potential technological limit or practical considerations (from cost-benefit to operational viability) rather than political expediency. Remember that if the US is bound to frown upon us for testing a 8000KM land based BM (THE REASON THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE PROPPING UP TO ARGUE THAT INDIA REALLY SHOULDN'T) then trust me they shall be EVEN MORE PISSED about an operational 6000KM SLBM in our hands since the latter would be far more damaging even to them in any unlikely scenario which would see us strike at them- case in point being that statically a sub with a 6K range SLBM has a higher chance of evading their massive navy and positioning itself in international waters from where it could launch at them- that is to say that a submarine can get close enough to do so relatively speaking while a 8K land based BM would pose no threat to them at all since it JUST CANNOT BE RE-POSITIONED OUTSIDE THE TERRITORIAL BOUNDARY OF OUR NATION.

THE ABOVE IS THE COMPREHENSIVE ANSWER TO YOUR QUERY.

And the following is the already existing thread on the topic :- http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/199052-does-india-need-8-000-km-range-missile.html

 

[Ayush]

yaar @Dillinger tu to iske peeche hi pad gaya yaar.

 

[Dillinger]

yaar @Dillinger tu to iske peeche hi pad gaya yaar.

What else should I do! He sports my nation's flag and is running about creating threads about how IN can buy a Korean destroyer while jumping about the P-15A being christened the Bengaluru class.

Now he moots the idea that we should perhaps aim to buy Ohio SSBNs and Trident-2 SLBMs, matha sanak gaya hai vele ka. How hard will any serious poster laugh when he/she reads something like this. While we are at it- lets also buy the new Gerald R Ford class super carrier- hell if they'll sell us an Ohio then they'll sell us that too.