Narrowing PAF Gap V IAF by 2015

[Donatello]

Indian armed forces have a Civilian control who have to give orders, just because IAF is better than Bangladesh or Srilankan Air Force we do not go after them, so is the same case with PAF. The civilan government must have set of objectives of going into a confrontation. Upon their orders only, can IAF do any thing, other than that the only other thing IAF can do it "take the facts and plead their case at PMO or defense ministry".

Just because IAF did not attack PAF does not mean that PAF is better or otherwise. Given the nuclearization of sub-continent, any confrontation should be well thought out and can easily escalate out of control.

You completely failed to comprehend what he was trying to say.


Just look at Mumbai attacks. The entire Indian government and it's propaganda puppies wanted to go to war. Sonia Gandhi and her remarks of give Pakistan a befitting reply (her own words not mine...go look up). So what happened then?

India media portraying numbers and parity between Indian Army and Pakistan Army and IAF/PAF.

Those videos are still up there, go look them. You couldn't do shyt because the government of India knew well, that Pakistan can retaliate with any weapon out there, conventional or nuclear and hence it would be India's own loss and erode any support for Mumbai attack victims and India as a whole.

Stop dreaming....bla bla SU30 this and that.

Srilanka and Bangladesh cannot be compared to the sophistication of Pakistan or Indian Armed forces.

 

[lalluyadav]

You completely failed to comprehend what he was trying to say.


Just look at Mumbai attacks. The entire Indian government and it's propaganda puppies wanted to go to war. Sonia Gandhi and her remarks of give Pakistan a befitting reply (her own words not mine...go look up). So what happened then?

India media portraying numbers and parity between Indian Army and Pakistan Army and IAF/PAF.

Those videos are still up there, go look them. You couldn't do shyt because the government of India knew well, that Pakistan can retaliate with any weapon out there, conventional or nuclear and hence it would be India's own loss and erode any support for Mumbai attack victims and India as a whole.

Stop dreaming....bla bla SU30 this and that.

Srilanka and Bangladesh cannot be compared to the sophistication of Pakistan or Indian Armed forces.

i would say this is an nuclear factor

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well if you think you standing among debtor nations hasn't changed in past few years then you seriously need to get your facts right.

Pakistan had a 'glorified' growth years during Mushraff regime which disappeared faster than he did and Pakistan hit the reality wall. Inflation at 15 -20 %, flood damage of $15 bn, and all the loans will soon come to hunt you down.

Sir, i know a lot about economics, its my area of interest.

Loans increasing isn't that much of a problem, if it can be compensated with economic growth. But yeah if there is no or less economic growth, then we have problems.

And as for Musharaf era, the figures were not as glorified or cooked up as are said. People here on ground in Pakistan could literally see the development done in that era as well as the massive expansion of the job market. It has been the blunder of the current govt that we are in such a problem, not due to Musharaf. Musharaf provided a sound base to further take on the economic activity, but due to the decisions by this govt, all progress has been lost.

As said previously many times, Pakistan has great potential and still huge space to generate hundred of billions of rupees extra revenue which can result us taking no loans rather we can pay back our loans, but it depends on the economic managers how they run the show.

So its not Pakistan's fault, its the fault of the people who are running the show badly, Pakistan has everything.

 

[x_man]

The number gap between IAF and PAF will most likely not be narrowed as the number of squadrons on both sides will remain same. For example PAFs No 5 PR sqdn that operated Mirage-III RPs is now replaced with F-16Block52. Also No 26 squadron now operates Thunder instead of A-5s. As Thunders will continue in production, it will replace F-7s and Mirages in other squadrons. Hence same number of aircrafts in 2015. Likewise IAF will also start to replace Mig-21s, 27s with LCA Tejas.

Until few months back PAF (officially) had NO BVR capability. Now it has and it will continue to rise. Hence a huge gap that we had with IAF will start to narrow down in this regard. Don’t start fight that IAF has 1000 missiles and PAF only 200 ( for example) No doubt that IAF has and will always have much more BVR missiles in numbers. But as far as the capability, the Gap is now narrowed.

Likewise gaps between two forces are reducing in EW capability, air-air refuelling means, airlift transport and ground based radar capabilities. PAF is going thru tremendous renovation since couple of years back and there are still many more areas that need catching up.

Now the capabilities of pilots. Well both are professional airforces who train their pilots with the best available resources. There is no gauge to measure that whose pilots are good or better. So no point in discussing this further.

PAFs main drawback had not been the resources but the lack of decision power by few of its elites in the past. We could have many capabilities many years earlier but somehow we suffered from the narrow line of sight and unidirectional approach of few.

However things are improving for better now and PAF does realise that to survive in South Asia it needs to come out the euphoria of the older glory days and need to pace up with the modern threats .

 

[Safriz]

IAF has yet to show Motorway landing capability?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Still numbers gap remains same if not increasing in favour of iaf quality gap surely is increasing as we we have better awac,mmrca, (f16 < sukhoi,lca = jf17,mmrca = ? )and can i count navy fighters also (mig 29k)?

 

[Donatello]

i would say this is an nuclear factor

Not exactly..

Even with conventional weapons per Pakistani head and conventional weapons per Indian head.......ratios are pretty much same or better for Pakistan.

 

[Donatello]

The number gap between IAF and PAF will most likely not be narrowed as the number of squadrons on both sides will remain same. For example PAFs No 5 PR sqdn that operated Mirage-III RPs is now replaced with F-16Block52. Also No 26 squadron now operates Thunder instead of A-5s. As Thunders will continue in production, it will replace F-7s and Mirages in other squadrons. Hence same number of aircrafts in 2015. Likewise IAF will also start to replace Mig-21s, 27s with LCA Tejas.

Until few months back PAF (officially) had NO BVR capability. Now it has and it will continue to rise. Hence a huge gap that we had with IAF will start to narrow down in this regard. Don’t start fight that IAF has 1000 missiles and PAF only 200 ( for example) No doubt that IAF has and will always have much more BVR missiles in numbers. But as far as the capability, the Gap is now narrowed.

Likewise gaps between two forces are reducing in EW capability, air-air refuelling means, airlift transport and ground based radar capabilities. PAF is going thru tremendous renovation since couple of years back and there are still many more areas that need catching up.

Now the capabilities of pilots. Well both are professional airforces who train their pilots with the best available resources. There is no gauge to measure that whose pilots are good or better. So no point in discussing this further.

PAFs main drawback had not been the resources but the lack of decision power by few of its elites in the past. We could have many capabilities many years earlier but somehow we suffered from the narrow line of sight and unidirectional approach of few.

However things are improving for better now and PAF does realise that to survive in South Asia it needs to come out the euphoria of the older glory days and need to pace up with the modern threats .

Sir,
Pakistan will already have 500 AMRAAM BVR missiles....that on top of SD-10 from China is certainly way more than 200.

It depends on how we use them, not how many we actually have.

 

[Moscow]

IAF has yet to show Motorway landing capability?

landing on a motorway is when you dont have enough options so no need to brag about it in times of need every pro force can have many such capabilities

read x- mans sir post above leave out the delusion there is no basis to measure pilot capability

and narrow is a short sighted word PROGRESS is a better word

 

[Ghostwhowalks]

I dont know if this is the right thread for this post, so mods, please feel free to move it as appropriate.

Disclaimer- This post is based on the experience of an RSAF official and is not to be viewed as bias towards/against either India or Pakistan- it is just an objective view of a third party. My source is the aforementioned RSAF official who is very closely related to me(sorry, cant give out the exact relation to protect his privacy, but he is very close to me) and he was closely involved with the recent air execises with the IAF and the French AF in France (Garuda).

In addition to what gets released to the media, there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes in such exercises, both officially and unofficially. one of the common elements of all pilots irrespective of their air force is that they consider themselves to be the best o fthe best, a cut above the rest. this was true for teh French, Indian and Singapore AF pilots as well at Garuda. there was always this undercurrent of competitiveness to prove themselves better than their counterparts from the other two countries. This was extended to proving the prowess of their birds as well.

On a couple of occassions, RSAF pilots in their F16s went up against the Indians in their SU30 MKIs and on other occasions, both sides had a chance to work in tandem and closely observe the skills/capabilitites of the pilots.

One thing that really stood out was the overwhelming superiority of the SU30 as an overall platform compared to the F16s, Mirages and, to a lesser extent the Rafale. That plane's manouverability, depite is gargantuan size, is exemplary, but this is a well known fact. what is truly amazing is the way the SU30 MKI, fares in simulated dogfights- The RSAF pilots were pretty smug about their chances given the well known capability of the F 16 in dogfights and its superb rate of turn, rate of climb and the ability to pull and sustain 9Gs- well turns out that they were in for a surprise. the MKI is simply in a class of its own especially when going one on one against the F16 is a simulated tightening turn- everytime the F16 pilots thougt they had a chane to out turn this big bird and turn the tables, teh Indan pilots would kick in thrust vectoring and completely change the rules of the game. In terms of post stall manouvers and rate of climb as well, it simply outclassed the F16s (would be interesting to see how the much vaunted block 60 fares in this regard). Pity that no one could really experience the true capabilites of the radar of the flanker, since that was used only in training mode in this exercise. But what ever little we did see was a good pointer to the capability of thi sbird to track and engage multiple targets, which combined with its formidable arsenal, makes it a truly potent platform.

Another thing is the skill of these pilots. Every airforce gives the best for its pilots and the pilots of most modern air forces are at par with their counterparts in terms of training. but when you combine this training and skill with a very potent machine like the SU30 MKI, then it would be a very brave/foolhardy adversary who would underestimate this combination, because the chances are that in a real shooting war, this underestimation would cost the pilot his life. Simple. Respect.....deep respect!

It would be very interesing to compare the MKI with the Eagle.....maybe next time .

 

[Arsalan]

Well, I dint know both Bicycles and Racing Cars Fly , Or Was Your Comment Sarcastic In anyway???

i also didnt knen that LCA does....

regards!

 

[Desi Sher]

i also didnt knen that LCA does....

regards!

I dont mind You being Ignorant.... Infact I enjoy it....

 

[anathema]

One thing that really stood out was the overwhelming superiority of the SU30 as an overall platform compared to the F16s, Mirages and, to a lesser extent the Rafale. That plane's manouverability, depite is gargantuan size, is exemplary, but this is a well known fact. what is truly amazing is the way the SU30 MKI, fares in simulated dogfights- The RSAF pilots were pretty smug about their chances given the well known capability of the F 16 in dogfights and its superb rate of turn, rate of climb and the ability to pull and sustain 9Gs- well turns out that they were in for a surprise. the MKI is simply in a class of its own especially when going one on one against the F16 is a simulated tightening turn- everytime the F16 pilots thougt they had a chane to out turn this big bird and turn the tables, teh Indan pilots would kick in thrust vectoring and completely change the rules of the game. In terms of post stall manouvers and rate of climb as well, it simply outclassed the F16s (would be interesting to see how the much vaunted block 60 fares in this regard). .

The argument given nowadays is that JHMCS and full spherical missile systems makes thrust vectoring irrelevant. Logically -- i am inclined to believe that is true -- if that is the case then may be flanker can be at disadvantage at some times.

On a side note RSAF didnt use their JHMCS ..they have block 52 apparently ?

In betn -- Phantom is personally one of my fav characters !!

 

[Alternative]

Buddy, the GDP reduction set back is for this year, not next year or a perm one. By next year, major crops would be standing again and even some circles are saying the next 1-2 years crops may be much more then previous times due to the arrival of much fertile sand/earth left over by the flood waters.

And as said keep thinking about 2020 and the best air force fascination, we are talking about set backs with context to floods, which would be limited to 1-2 years, yeah the infrastructure development may take little longer, but crops would be there by next year, even at places where water level has gone back, people have started to sow.

And the tax would be in few limited things, not across the board. Once water levels go down, economic activity would start again.

Dear Sir, There will be no reduction in GDP, as Agricultural Sector only contribute only 24% in GDP.
Most affected crops now are cotton and vegetables (that were unharvested), sugarcane will be largely unaffected. new crop of vegs will be sown right after water will be receded.
This is september 2010 and more than nine and half months are remaing.

 

[airuah]

Dear Sir, There will be no reduction in GDP, as Agricultural Sector only contribute only 24% in GDP.
Most affected crops now are cotton and vegetables (that were unharvested), sugarcane will be largely unaffected. new crop of vegs will be sown right after water will be receded.
This is september 2010 and more than nine and half months are remaing.

sorry to say this 24% is still huge...... and cotton is one crop that is not only an agricultural product...it forms the basis for your textile industry.....