My Question....Why PAF not invested in J10 project back in 15 or 20 years.

[Maarkhoor]

J10 is also a single engine fighter low cost means maintenance fuel etc

Better range, more hard points better agility etc

Why our PAF official missed that opportunity ?

Just imagine if we have invested instead of JF17 we would have 150 Jets now.

@MastanKhan @Quwa @SQ8

 

[Sayfullah]

20 years ago J-10’s future was uncertain.
Also, the purpose of JF-17 was to be a cheap lightweight fighter Pakistan could build in numbers and learn from it. We would never be able to build J-10 in numbers like we can with JF-17. Remember we had many obsolete fighters we had to replace in the hundreds and still do which we can’t replace with J-10. We have F-16 that’s almost identical to J-10 in the role PAF uses it for, so maybe PAF was planning for long term and wanted F-16’s to remain its medium weight fighter while JF-17 is the light weight fighter.
Also, J-10 would have not been like JF-17 is. JF-17 we can integrate whatever we want on it and, export it and produce how many we want in Pakistan. J-10 wouldn’t have given us that flexibility.

IMO, Pakistan made a perfect decision going with JF-17 because had it not been for JF-17, PAF would be a rather small airforce and lose its edge to Indians just because Indians would have much more fighter jets than we would even if quality of ours was better.
Just look at Indians, they got their hopes high and didn’t focus on Tejas now their stuck with hundreds of obsolete aircraft that need to be replaced.

JF-17 Block 3 and beyond will actually show the true capabilities of JF platform imo block 1 and 2 were more getting experience with building the fighter and fine tuning it to Pakistan needs but now Block 3 is perfectly optimized for PAF and will be a beast it was intended to be.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

J10 is also a single engine fighter low cost means maintenance fuel etc

Better range, more hard points better agility etc

Why our PAF official missed that opportunity ?

Just imagine if we have invested instead of JF17 we would have 150 Jets now.

@MastanKhan @Quwa @SQ8

PAF wanted a low cost jet made according to their own requirements which J10 was not.

I was medium (if not high cost) at that time and it was made for requirements of PLAAF.

JF17 was made by PAC and CAC according to the requirements of PAF.

Secondly PAF was hoping to get more F16s which didn't pan out as planned.

 

[MastanKhan]

J10 is also a single engine fighter low cost means maintenance fuel etc

Better range, more hard points better agility etc

Why our PAF official missed that opportunity ?

Just imagine if we have invested instead of JF17 we would have 150 Jets now.

@MastanKhan @Quwa @SQ8

Hi,

They did, inadevertantly they did when Gen Mush made the deal.

They had to do the assessment on the J10 to which they made about 48 recommendations.

48 changes my man---that is not a small number. They basically changed a lot on the J10.

Paf suggested and the chinese listened to the paf experience.

Paf kept its focus on the jf17 while the chinese took to making the needed changes on the j10.

We now have the final result in front of us.

 

[SQ8]

J10 is also a single engine fighter low cost means maintenance fuel etc

Better range, more hard points better agility etc

Why our PAF official missed that opportunity ?

Just imagine if we have invested instead of JF17 we would have 150 Jets now.

@MastanKhan @Quwa @SQ8

The PAF did evaluate the J-10 back then as well but did not see it as a large capability increase along with the fact that the Chinese were not willing to set up assembly for it locally.

The J-10A was officially mentioned 10–12 years ago as an acquisition in Alan warned book as a potential strike fighter but then Asif Zardari happened.

The J-10B was also looked at but the JF-17 program and financial recovery took precedence.

On a note before the usual “haye amrika” types step in - neither the J-10 nor the JF-17 were competing with the F-16 procurement or updates. What the F-16 brought to PAF in the last 10-15 years no other platform could and delivered on its investment.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Maybe it was not expected for India to get Rafale.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Shahid latif carrier was dependent on the success of JF-17 because PAF under govt pressure was ready to scrap the project and he kept it alive, so Air chief told him, “either you will rise with this project or go down with it.”


So when J-10 came to his knowledge, despite being a superior project, he knew that after all the time and investment, scraping JF-17 now means end of his career.

This is Based on his own interview.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Shahid latif carrier was dependent on the success of JF-17 because PAF under govt pressure was ready to scrap the project and he kept it alive, so Air chief told him, either you will rise with this project or go down with it.


So when J-10 came to his knowledge, despite being a superior project, he knew that after all the time and investment, scraping JF-17 now means end of his career.

This is Based on his own interview.

Not correct at all

Jft was a project to jump start aviation in Pakistan. A low cost high impact home grown fighter with full local capability. J10 was not able to provide that in any shape or form

 

[MultaniGuy]

Not correct at all

Jft was a project to jump start aviation in Pakistan. A low cost high impact home grown fighter with full local capability. J10 was not able to provide that in any shape or form

I think you are correct.

 

[MastanKhan]

Shahid latif carrier was dependent on the success of JF-17 because PAF under govt pressure was ready to scrap the project and he kept it alive, so Air chief told him, either you will rise with this project or go down with it.


So when J-10 came to his knowledge, despite being a superior project, he knew that after all the time and investment, scraping JF-17 now means end of his career.

This is Based on his own interview.

Hi,

It was not about ACM Latif---it as about the capabilities of Paf and about the men who serve it as its officers and the resource it offers the nation.

It is about the Paf telling the world---that in the field of fighter aircraft design and manufacture---the Paf holds a certain niche---that its men are capable with amazing skills---of which a clear result know to the world is the JF17---and the unknown result is the J10 B/C's and another aircraft.

Remember---every project has a face and then there is the team behind that face and the JF17 is the result of that team spirit.

Not correct at all

Jft was a project to jump start aviation in Pakistan. A low cost high impact home grown fighter with full local capability. J10 was not able to provide that in any shape or form

Hi,

That comment is misleading---.

The only " Low Cost factor" is due to extremely low labor cost for pakistani side.

If the same aircraft was built by any other conglomerate---the cost would have been very high.

And " JUMP start " is not the right word either---Pakistan / China shoved the JF17 right in front of the world forum in the format of a highly capable fighter interceptor strike aircraft.

Wait till you see the BLK3 after integration.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Hi,

It was not about ACM Latif---it as about the capabilities of Paf and about the men who serve it as its officers and the resource it offers the nation.

It is about the Paf telling the world---that in the field of fighter aircraft design and manufacture---the Paf holds a certain niche---that its men are capable with amazing skills---of which a clear result know to the world is the JF17---and the unknown result is the J10 B/C's and another aircraft.

Remember---every project has a face and then there is the team behind that face and the JF17 is the result of that team spirit.



Hi,

That comment is misleading---.

The only " Low Cost factor" is due to extremely low labor cost for pakistani side.

If the same aircraft was built by any other conglomerate---the cost would have been very high.

And " JUMP start " is not the right word either---Pakistan / China shoved the JF17 right in front of the world forum in the format of a highly capable fighter interceptor strike aircraft.

Wait till you see the BLK3 after integration.

That’s all fine and dandy, but fact is Chinese build this jet for PAF. At one point Chinese engineers almost gave up because after all the gaps in development cycle , and as time progressed PAF was demanding different capabilities and Super-7 base wasn’t able to provide all those changes. Infact engineers benchmark was some sort a of heavily modified upgraded Mig-21. Chinese were ready to build new platform for PAF from scratch up but that meant funding for the project. So under shahid latif, PAF decided to settle for a compromised, and hope to upgrade it in block form.

Now just to answer OP, reason behind why didn’t PAF simply scrapped JF-17 and just joined J-10, because shahid latif carries was on the line. I think he should have explained it to Air chief, that due to so many delays, technology has evolved and another opportunity have arrived. Suck up the investment loss in super-7 and join J-10 project.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Not correct at all

Jft was a project to jump start aviation in Pakistan. A low cost high impact home grown fighter with full local capability. J10 was not able to provide that in any shape or form

Sure that was the intent but Project was dead multiple times. Whole Super-7 to JF-17 drama, delays and Political pressure was explained by Shahid latif himself on TV.

To direct answer OP question, as per shahid latif interview, he bet his career to make JF-17 successful after his senior officers and Chinese engineers gave up because Super-7 base concept was outdated and PAF brass in kamra was ready to move on for off the shelf solution.

 

[Big_bud]

J10 is also a single engine fighter low cost means maintenance fuel etc

Better range, more hard points better agility etc

Why our PAF official missed that opportunity ?

Just imagine if we have invested instead of JF17 we would have 150 Jets now.

@MastanKhan @Quwa @SQ8

Because 20 years ago Pakistan had not thought that they will stop getting F16s or would have to change from US camp to Chinese camp completely. They were just looking to build a cheaper yet capable aircraft to complement their F16s. Later it was realised that "terrorism" and religious extremism and proxy wars are the new game show on the global stage, 5th gen war. And then they revised requirements of the project for JF17 midway. Several times Chinese got annoyed by our changing and increasing demands.

At that time no one could tell in advance that US would call us the most major non-nato ally and yet, bomb us, blame us, stop providing us weapons, play a double game with us, there will be people like Raymond Davis having immunity working anti Pakistan from within our soil etc. As variables changed, global stage changed. After Russia was successfully destroyed with the help of Pakistan and China became too powerful too soon, US then started seeing India as its future partner. Purposefully things were down graded between US/Pakistan.

 

[beijingwalker]

The strength in partnering with China is China can always deliver, India partnered with Russia in some joint development weapon projects and ended up getting nothing after throwing in billions of dollars.

 

[MastanKhan]

That’s all fine and dandy, but fact is Chinese build this jet for PAF. At one point Chinese engineers almost gave up because after all the gaps in development cycle , and as time progressed PAF was demanding different capabilities and Super-7 base wasn’t able to provide all those changes. Infact engineers benchmark was some sort a of heavily modified upgraded Mig-21. Chinese were ready to build new platform for PAF from scratch up but that meant funding for the project. So under shahid latif, PAF decided to settle for a compromised, and hope to upgrade it in block form.

Now just to answer OP, reason behind why didn’t PAF simply scrapped JF-17 and just joined J-10, because shahid latif carries was on the line. I think he should have explained it to Air chief, that due to so many delays, technology has evolved and another opportunity have arrived. Suck up the investment loss in super-7 and join J-10 project.

Hi,

Seems like you don't have understanding of differences between the 3rd gen and 4th gen a frame design---both of which have different flight parameters even though both aircrafts fly.

Super 7 or Mig 21 design had nothing to do with the JF17 program or design.

The size of the JF17 is the most important factor over here---the sabre was a larger aircraft---its nemesis the Gnat was a smaller aircraft---very difficult to observe---.

That is what was one of the features behind the design of the JF17---a smaller aircraft---presenting a stealthier option due to its size.

With the JF17---the Paf wanted to rub the US nose in the dirt---. It was about the ego of the Paf to show and strut around in the JF17.