Muslim reformists

[blain2]

You're right. Noone's gonna admit that they're wrong anyways.

Because everyone has done some wrong.

 

[Marathaman]

Hindu renaissance? thats a good one.......How's the whole downtrodden lower castes thing going? As I understand it your renaissance has been going on since the 12th century. Must have been organised by the DRDO's precursor. Oh and isn't the RSS a reform movememnt?

Ever heard of Raja Rammohun Roy? Swami Viverkananda? Arya Samaj? Mahatma Gandhi? Dr. Ambedkar? Ramakrishna mission? BAPS? ISCKON?

I guess not.

Not to mention, constitution of India? Reservation for backward castes?

And yeah...in that sense, RSS is a reform movement, since it doesn't discriminate against lower castes.

 

[A.Rahman]

Where's the Islamic renaissance?? Until the day muslims start questioning their religion ,they cannot hope to progress.

Muslims have been questioning their religion since day 1, This is why they study & pursue it.

 

[Marathaman]

Muslims have been questioning their religion since day 1, This is why they study & pursue it.

Glad to hear it...not that I believe it. Could you point out some famous Islamic reformers in modern history?

As I see it...Islam, as practiced by the majority of the muslim world, is completely unreformed and unchanged since medieval times.

Maybe this is due to the perception that Islam is perfect and need not be changed?

 

[Keysersoze]

Ever heard of Raja Rammohun Roy? Swami Viverkananda? Arya Samaj? Mahatma Gandhi? Dr. Ambedkar? Ramakrishna mission? BAPS? ISCKON?

I guess not.

Not to mention, constitution of India? Reservation for backward castes?

And yeah...in that sense, RSS is a reform movement, since it doesn't discriminate against lower castes.

Shami Bibekanondo) (January 12, 1863 - July 4, 1902),

Raja Rammohun Roy As yes I have read about him...apparently he tried to abolish the practice of Sati (The bride being thrown on the funeral pyre of her husband) Wonder if the women who have burned since then appreciate the "reform"
Wasn't it a English general that made the practice illegal?

Also Dr Ambedkar (April 14, 1891 — December 6, 1956) his fight was against the caste system which is still affecting the lives of quite a few so I would suggest that "reform" has a way to go yet. Also didn't he convert to Buddhism?

I could go on here but I get bored with you and Samudra and your rants

 

[Awesome]

Gladly. Salman Ahmed:

http://www.freemuse.org/sw11317.asp

 

[Marathaman]

Shami Bibekanondo) (January 12, 1863 - July 4, 1902),

Raja Rammohun Roy As yes I have read about him...apparently he tried to abolish the practice of Sati (The bride being thrown on the funeral pyre of her husband) Wonder if the women who have burned since then appreciate the "reform"
Wasn't it a English general that made the practice illegal?

Also Dr Ambedkar (April 14, 1891 — December 6, 1956) his fight was against the caste system which is still affecting the lives of quite a few so I would suggest that "reform" has a way to go yet. Also didn't he convert to Buddhism?

I could go on here but I get bored with you and Samudra and your rants

The fact that he converted to Buddhism is completely irrelevant. Reformers are supposed to oppose their religion as a rule. He very well could have turned atheist and still reformed Hinduism.

You haven't managed to dig up dirt on any other reform movements i've mentioned apart from these 2.

Of course reform has a long way to go. Hell...even Christian fundamentalism was alive and well till the 20 century.

Hinduism has a history of reform which continues today.

My point is...Muslims in the Middle East aren't even trying. If anything....they've gotten worse in recent years.

 

[Awesome]

Historically another one from the Pakistan region was Baba Bulley Shah.

Here's a small blog entry written by Salman Ahmed on Bulley Shah:

God Is Within, the Sufi Poet Wrote

Just over 300 years ago, the Muslim Sufi poet Bulleh Shah, while a student at a madrassa (Islamic school) in what is now Pakistan, asked his religious teacher this question: "What is the point of washing one's hands and feet before prayers if the heart wasn't clean?"

The teacher considered Bulleh Shah's query most contentious and refused to answer the question which in his mind bordered on the blasphemous.

Despite his teacher's attempts to dissuade him from rocking the religious boat, Bulleh Shah just couldn't contain his restless heart: He grew his hair long, dressed outrageously, danced wearing ankle bracelets, picked up the iktara (the one-stringed South Asian folk instrument) and began singing poetry.

His poetry of love, freedom and tolerance not only gave voice to Muslims chained by blind ritualism and a fear-mongering clergy. It also created a cultural and spiritual bridge between Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs living in the subcontinent.

My advice to people who are seeking God is to look within their own hearts.This is best illustrated in Bulleh Shah's poetry which was directly inspired by the Quran:

You could tear down the mosque, break down the temple
Break all that can be broken
But never break anyone's heart
Because that is where God lives.

Baba Bulleh Shah

The last lines are from Bulley Shah's famous poetry that went like:

Masjid Dhadey, Mandir dhaday (tear down)
Dhadey jo kuch Dheinda
Ik Banday da dil na Dhaveen
Rab odhay vich hi rehnda

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

If the principle of doing ijtihad on the basis of the Quran was once allowed, then Allama Iqbal’s ‘ijtihad’ on the Quranic injunction of ‘qat’-e-yadd’ (cutting of hands) in his Sixth Lecture should be accepted. Not accepting his effort has led us to a situation where we have sentenced people to it but have not been able to cut the hands of a single thief. And those Islamic states who have, have not benefited from the law either
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_4-1-2005_pg3_5

Ijtihad is not allowed now or so it appears.

And anyway, Allama Iqbal was nearly declared an apostate for his fighting for ijtihad! I can't find the link, but should I find it, I will post it.

 

[Awesome]

There's no one to allow or disallow things. It's just how well you can sway popular opinion.

Ijtihad was an integral part of Islam at its concept and was removed after 3-4 centuries by Islamic politicians of the time to impose their own line of thought. There's no Islamic reasoning for the absence of Ijtihad.

Oh and nicely pointed out Salim, Iqbal was one of the greatest reformists amongst not only Muslims but all religions. He tried to bridge the gap between the scientific atheists and the illiterate believers. He argued for conformity between Science and Islam (or just religions).

Marathaman examples are numerous, if you don't "believe it", then that's just your lack of education and blind rejection of the unknown.

 

[Adux]

Nobody is rejecting the unknown force, just that we dont agree your fundo story is true or some others. God is a between a person and the unkown. Its quite personal. That he doesnt write and give it in a book

 

[Awesome]

What you goin on about Adu?

 

[joey]

Missed the discussion totally but key from your last part which marathaman quoted, your pretty much unaware of any facts regarding the movements, the number of movements quoted are just tip of the iceberg. Plus I dont know why mouthpiece like this American gentlemen is being given so much publicity.

Hindus in Pakistan are living in perfect harmony with the mainstream Muslims and they never had any such claim and neither are they ever subjected to genocide or deprived of basic rights or subjected to other victimisation, where as Hindustani Muslims and Christians are subjected to all sort of discrimination.

The percentage of minorities in Pakistan 60 years before and now speaks for itself.
Elite peoples lives well anywhere regardless of religion they belongs to. Poor peoples are subjected to all sort of problems everywhere regardless of the religion they belong to.

How about one of the worst day Indian communal tentions happened, and the situation vis-a-vis in Pakistan in so called retaliation?

http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/mar/chronology.asp?groupId=77004

Jan 1993 A comparison between the human rights records of India and Pakistan in 1992, which was released by the US State Department, reveals that if human rights were considered to be abused in India, then the situation in Pakistan could only be described as "appalling", with human rights "brutalized" on a systematic basis. The State Department accused Pakistan of persecuting minority Hindus, Christians and Ahmadis. Hindus asserted that they are subject to kidnappings, the forced conversions of young women, and the desecration of Hindu shrines. They also state that they are not permitted to freely practice their religion (The Ethnic Newswatch, 01/29/93).

1000 hindu temples destroyed in 1992 for babri
By Shahnawaz Khan

LAHORE: The Hindu community on Thursday demanded the reconstruction of more than 1,000 temples across Pakistan, which had been demolished by violent Muslim mobs in December 1992 in protest against the demolition of the Babri Mosque in India, while Muslims in India commemorated December 6 – the day Babri Mosque was demolished by Hindus – as a “day of resistance” and demanded the Indian government reconstruct the Babri Mosque and take action against those responsible for the incident.

APBS Balochistan President Atnay Ram Chohan said that more than 1,000 Hindu temples had been damaged in Pakistan following the Babari Mosque incident and the government had assured the Hindu community that their places of worship would be restored, but that promise has yet to be fulfilled.
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http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\12\08\story_8-12-2006_pg7_11

Don't forget Mohammad bin Qasim, came to India to help a Hindu girl and later it was the Hindus of very same India who declared him God.
I guess same goes with all the Muslim rulers who ruled India. They had ruled the India with justice and equality. Actually, before and after the Islamic rule India remains a society where non-hindus and low cast were were always victimised.
All Muslim rulers were actually savior of Hindus and provided them with better life.

Good joke.

Most of Muslims see it other way around.
These days every society have minority extremist but in India extrimists are in majority and are ruling.
Have you ever heard Pakistani President or other political leaders passing bad remarks about hinduism? or India? Where as your ruling President has insulted Islamic religon and R.Gandhi has admitted his hate among an appreciative audiance of billion+ Indians.

You should stop joking around and stop speaking yourself being the gurdian of all/most of the Muslims, not that I'm complaining as I feel its unnecessary to get along involved everywhere, Making political remarks for vote bank is different than naming missiles per the turko-mongolic invaders. If your referring to Patil, She did not insulted anyone, if your too unaware of what she said check the once discussion me and niaz had on it.

Even your politicians are no different and taking them as a concensus of nation is silly at best.

 

[Adux]

Nothing of importance, just rant about God...lol Dont bother

 

[Ababeel]

Er...quoting 1967 newspapers won't help your argument. Neither will Bush saying Crusade. "Crusade" in modern english is synonymous with "war" or "fight". Like crusade against child abuse, or crusade against global warming.

Lol...Muhammad is responsible for the waning of Christianity?? Wow...you have singlehandedly rendered centuries of Renaissance movement null and void.

Remember.....Christianity underwent a renaissance. Hinduism went through reform movements in the last couple of centuries, and is still being reformed.

Where's the Islamic renaissance?? Until the day muslims start questioning their religion ,they cannot hope to progress.

Lol he was referring a war and not lesser a topic or cause. Moreover you must remember his background as a Neocon with Evangelist faith.
Christianity lost the its middle east followers to the Islamic faith from Morocco to Turkey and Lebenon to Yemen and Somalia to Ethopia and throughout the world.
You can't blame the under development of present day muslims to Islam. When muslims followed the Quran and Sunnah they were the rulers of world. They provided the base of present day Science for which west is indebted for them. If there had been a Noble Prize between the period of 700 AD to 1400 AD most would have gone to the muslim scientist and researchers.
First solve the menace of caste system in your own country and give excess to lower caste Hindus to Upper caste Hindu temples, hotels and houses in rural ares throughout the country incl your own state Maharashtra. Try to be human while behaving with the Dalits etc.
Muslims questioning their religion!!!!!!!!!
Then there must be a large desertion from Islam. Where is it happening. Yes its happening but in West and US where Islam is the fastest growing religion despite all the maligning propaganda.
Don't forget Islam made you and your culture civilised, muslims united India in its present form. Muslim kings were the first to bring the lower caste up, incl. the Tughlaq dynasty.