Muslim-Jew seeks new approach to Arab-Israeli peace

[ARSENAL6]

No one complained about how the new world order partitioned the rest of the ME that gave the Arabs most of the oil wealth.

I beg your pardon !
Gambit if you don't know your world history please don't type such illogical post.

Here is a hint : The Turkish People !
and Pakistanis well Pakistan wasn't created during WW1 but after WW2.

 

[gambit]

I beg your pardon !
Gambit if you don't know your world history please don't type such illogical post.

Here is a hint : The Turkish People !
and Pakistanis well Pakistan wasn't created during WW1 but after WW2.

Here is a hint: Does the Arabs protest about the partition of the territories they rule over today to the same degree as the creation of Israel? That is the point of the question. Does Pakistanis protest about the creation of Pakistan to the same degree as they protest the creation of Israel? Foreign powers partitioned the Korean peninsula, does anyone outside of Korea protest about that partition to the same degree as the creation of Israel?

 

[ARSENAL6]

I think there are a lot of people out there like this fellow. Though not many Pakistanis, I guess.

What because he's a Jew, Pakistanis hate him for that ?
Pakistani troops are fighting in Afganistan against terrorist so you could walk freely in the US and you call them anti-semetic ?
Could you provid me hard evidence in this board of pakistnis hating jews (and not the ones who continuely give you prove of Isreali brutility - thats a facts done by jewish media in isreal) because I have got a lot of prove of Muslim helping and saving Jews !


Solomon2 the post you have posted about Mark Halawa show nothing but to put the seeds of hatred against Palestinians only.
I see more Israelis coming to the point that the Israeli brutility on Palestinians is the root causes of terrorism and suicide bombers.

THis is not evidence of Palestine anti-semitic more like a back story
If you believe that then you might as well belive in this:
"One Saturday, One of my friend who was a Jew saw a video of an IDF soilder wearing a Nazi badge and shouting "hail hitler "

YES IF YOU FIND THAT OFFENISIVE I FIND IT OFFENSIVE THAT YOU POSTED THAT LINK WHICH
WAS TRYING TO POTRAY PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AS EVIL WHEN ITS THEM WHO HAD SUFFERED AND MURDERED FROM THE IDF
DANCING ON THIER GRAVES AND LAUGHING ON THEM BY POSTING SUCH PROPAGANDA ! .

If donlt find it offenisve then.......well you proved my point

Israeli jets kill ‘at least 225’ in strikes on Gaza - Times Online

i KNOW its your goal solomon2 You just want more people to back up Isreal and its cruel killing on innocent people. Wiping evryone who is not Jew or precise not Zionist.
THe evidence is there and even Jew as well as Isrealis are waking up to that point buit you Solomon2 Xruely ignore it.

I find this to the point of madness here on the forum - where you shout down and scream on others about 9/11 and then laugh at the Palestinian suffering done by Israel govt. by posting propaganda which has been going on half a century !
Only one thing sums that up :

SICK MENTALITY !


ANd For the Record:

THis Article was more likely written by Zioninst rather than Jews who framed constantly by their own people to be more excatl Zionists.

 

[ARSENAL6]

Here is a hint: Does the Arabs protest about the partition of the territories they rule over today to the same degree as the creation of Israel? That is the point of the question. Does Pakistanis protest about the creation of Pakistan to the same degree as they protest the creation of Israel? Foreign powers partitioned the Korean peninsula, does anyone outside of Korea protest about that partition to the same degree as the creation of Israel?

Seriously Gambit learn how to comprehend, before commit to a discussion. Nuff said !

But then again I expect that from someone who believes that navy SHips can be pushed on land !!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...-navy-surpass-u-s-navy-2015-a.html#post539993

Yeah...I guess we still need to work on how to push ships through sand.

Are you still figuring that out yet
I know Arabs got something that is the ship of the desert aka a camel

http://www.articlesbase.com/destinations-articles/the-ship-of-the-desert-a-camel-1307202.html

http://nabataea.net/camel.html

But they don't need to push it as you thought with your invention. Its natural, Its the Grace from Allah (swt) given to them to carry large amouts of good through the desert.

 

[gambit]

Seriously Gambit learn how to comprehend, before commit to a discussion. Nuff said !

But then again I expect that from someone who believes that navy SHips can be pushed on land !!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...-navy-surpass-u-s-navy-2015-a.html#post539993


Are you still figuring that out yet
I know Arabs got something that is the ship of the desert aka a camel

The Ship of the Desert : A camel

Camels and the Nabataeans

But they don't need to push it as you thought with your invention. Its natural, Its the Grace from Allah (swt) given to them to carry large amouts of good through the desert.

We should feel sorry for you if you really believe that I was serious about that comment.

 

[asq]

I'm not getting any brownie points here and neither is this thread about KAshmir. people of J&K get Indian passports and can even be part of the Union government of India. Can the palestinians do that in Israel? The Palestinian territories are not considered part of Israel and no courts or human rights jurisdiction follows there from the ISraeli pov. While the Indian human rights comission and Supreme court has jurisdiction there.


Its strange that you say no one is saying that jews should be thrown in the sea, but you just thanked a post above me where Developero said jews left ISrael 2000 years ago and thats the end of Israel "finito" as he put it.

I have cleraly stated that the pre-1967 Israel was Jewish majority based on the local jews living there. Ofcourse once the huge number of european jews who were zionists and fanatics came, they ethnic clensed the arab minorities out of those areas. Hence the right to return of refugees is an important part of the peace process.

That's why Israeli atleast the pre1967 Israel is perfectly right to exist especially since Pakistan was formed on the same principle of religious majority and minority by the then British government. You might say that the British had a habit of leaving a mess behind but then we can't rewrite history.

Pakistan was formed by the blessings of Gandhi, Nehru and all Indians leaders belonging to and living in the continent. Israel on the other hand was forced on Arabs in Arab land. No one cared/bothered to ask them about their land.

Where do u get your stats about Jewish majority, even if i give u that, even than they could not change the name of Palestine to Israel.

You are quoting out of context mentioning Developoro, he does not imply what u are implying so there u go trying to make browny point with Israelis on this forum.For explanation about what he said u wait and he will answer u. I do not second guess others writings.

Technical jargon is all u tell me about territory, what a shame, so in your opinion Palestinians living in these areas are abandoned and world does not give a hoot for the reason u mentioned.

Where is all that compassion, freedom of expression and of living freely in Democratic society, most of all is amnesty international only a show. Keep on killing poor Palestinians and keep talking about jurisdictions, even if takes another 60 years to come to conclusion as to if it applies on Poor Palestinians.

And also while blocking all the necessities of life, like food,water, medicine, why don't you go for blocking the day lite, the sun and the air as well.

About Pakistan your deductions are totally wrong, it was created by Muslims of India and was accepted by Indians, this is not true in the case of Israel, it was created by U.N. without the permission of local Arabs. So refrain from comparing apples and oranges as the same fruit unless you have lost the sense of sight and smell.

 

[Developereo]

Still utterly absurd. The point is about the political legitimacy of a nation-state to exist partially based upon investments by the people. The Jews made such investments without resorting to gas chambers for humans.

The Zionists captured the Palestinian territory through deceipt, bribery, terrorism and ethnic cleansing. Which is exactly how the Hebrews captured that territory in the ancient times when they invaded and massacred the indigenous Canaanites to take over their land. Even the Torah doesn't deny that, and historical evidence corroborates it.

Then who did the Romans erased and what did they destroyed if there were no Jewish culture there prior to WW II?

I never said there was no Jewish culture. I said the state of Israel ceased to exist. Jews were a tiny minority until the early 20th century.

Now who is in error as well as being contradictory here? It was YOU who brought up the Romans erasure of a Jewish state, an example of foreigners exercising supreme political and military powers and that you demanded that we today accept that judgement as eternal. Why is the Roman Empire's judgement hold greater validity than the UN's?

The Hebrews themselves were foreign invaders in the land of Canaan. Why do you selectively stop your clock at the period of ancient Israel? The land did not belong to the Hebrews before or since (until 1948).

Oh...Sorry...If something bad happened to Jews anywhere, it must be a good thing.

Oh stop, you're killing me.
The pathetic play on the race card won't wash. Even amongst educated Zionists, this is derided as the tactic of beginners. I have debated the Israel issue with hardcore Zionists who make far more intelligent arguments than relying on the pathetic anti-Semitism canard. What's next? the Holocaust sympathy card?

The creation of modern day Israel by a foreign superpower is no less politically valid than when the Roman Empire erased the old Israel,

Nobody's debating the political reality of Israel. The modern state of Israel is a fact. But so was apartheid, so was Nazism. The issue is not denial of a fact, but debating its legitimacy.

Thank the Jews

Give it a rest. Our quarrel is not with the Jewish people, whose religion and culture we respect, but with the Zionist ideology. No amount of smoke and mirrors will mix the two. Especially since there are hardcore, Orthodox Jewish rabbis who are against Zionism and Israel.

In the end, possession is 9/10th of the law

This is the gist of your argument. It is not about legitimacy. It's all about "I've got a gun and you ain't".

The same logic was used by the Nazis, the European colonialists and every invader throughout history, as you pointed out. At least you are honest about your argument.

 

[EjazR]

Pakistan was formed by the blessings of Gandhi, Nehru and all Indians leaders belonging to and living in the continent. Israel on the other hand was forced on Arabs in Arab land. No one cared/bothered to ask them about their land.

Where do u get your stats about Jewish majority, even if i give u that, even than they could not change the name of Palestine to Israel.

You are quoting out of context mentioning Developoro, he does not imply what u are implying so there u go trying to make browny point with Israelis on this forum.For explanation about what he said u wait and he will answer u. I do not second guess others writings.

Technical jargon is all u tell me about territory, what a shame, so in your opinion Palestinians living in these areas are abandoned and world does not give a hoot for the reason u mentioned.

Where is all that compassion, freedom of expression and of living freely in Democratic society, most of all is amnesty international only a show. Keep on killing poor Palestinians and keep talking about jurisdictions, even if takes another 60 years to come to conclusion as to if it applies on Poor Palestinians.

And also while blocking all the necessities of life, like food,water, medicine, why don't you go for blocking the day lite, the sun and the air as well.

About Pakistan your deductions are totally wrong, it was created by Muslims of India and was accepted by Indians, this is not true in the case of Israel, it was created by U.N. without the permission of local Arabs. So refrain from comparing apples and oranges as the same fruit unless you have lost the sense of sight and smell.

Pakistan was formed because the British had finally decided to agree to that demand. The rest had to agree to avoid further problems. Even many like Maulana Azad who had'nt agreed to the partition till the end had to reconcile with it. So yes part of the people wanted the partition, but finally it was imposed like the muslims, sikhs or hindus who had wanted to continue to live in their ancestral land but were forced out in the ensuing riots.

The land of Palestine was also under British rule, and they applied the same principle of dividing land into Jewish and Arab majority regions. I am not contesting the fact that lot of atrocities and crimes have been done by the IDF e.t.c. but I want to clarify wether Israel as passed by the UN was "correct" or not. And since Pakistan was created on the same principle and India had to agree with it. The same atleast from the Pakistani perspective should be the same. Since these areas consisted of local Jews living there already.

Here is the UNSC resolution outlining the details of the jewish and arab states.
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181

India, Iran and Yugoslavia, proposed a unitary state with arab and jewish autonomous areas to UN while rejecting the partition stand.
UN Special Committee on Palestine, Recommendations to the General Assembly

Moreinfo here, although you can find this info in other places as well.
Myths & Facts - Partition

I am focussing just on the 1948 creation of Israel here. There is no doubt that Israel has been committing gross human rights violation as bought out by the recent Goldstone report. Lets not forget that the initial opposition was based on arab nationalism on one side and religious nationalism and politcal judaism on the other. After the failure of the 67 war and Israel's covert support to HAMAS to undermine the PLO, the Islamic angle and suicide bombings came into being and the situation has taken a turn for the worse.

Both Israel and Pakistan started of as weak states and both were heavily supported by the US against Soviet interests in the middles east and central asian theatres.

So yes its correct to condemn Israeli human right abuses, but hypocritcal espicially for Pakistanis to critisize the basis on the creation of Israel by the UN resolution in 1948. Ofcourse orthodox Jews oppose the creation of Israel on the basis of religion just like orthodox muslims were opposed to creation of Pakistan. But that doesn't mean we turn back history.

Because of nationlistic pride among Israelis and arabs, relations between jews and muslims which are theologically the closest among all major religious groups have been affected. The Jewish Halaka and Islamic Shariah as well as Kaballah and Tawassuf are very simalr in concept and practice. That is why a new swift and fair approach based on FACTS is needed to achieve an Israeli-palestinian peace deal.

 

[Developereo]

hypocritcal espicially for Pakistanis to critisize the basis on the creation of Israel

The situation with Pakistan and Israel is NOT the same. You seem to want to ignore historical facts but the comparison is simply not appropriate.

The people of Pakistan have been living in this land since ancient times.

The Jews initially invaded Canaan to create Israel, were subsequently kicked out by the Romans, and have llived elsewhere for most of their history.

They were a small minority of Palestine's population at the turn of the last century. Over the next few decades they immigrated, mostly clandestinely, under British tutelage and laid claim to that land. Even at the time of the Balfour Declaration when the British decided to form a "Jewish State", they barely formed 7% of the population. The Balfour Declaration famously pledged to defend the rights of the non-Jewish residents (93% of the population!)

 

[EjazR]

^^^Like I said again and again. The state of Israel that was created under the 1948 UNSC resolution (It was much smaller than present day Israel) were Jewish majority were INDIGENEOUS jews were living. These jews(and arab christians) were living since the of the Turkish empire and Salahuddin Ayubi before him going back 100s of years.

They were no european or russian jews at the time of the census who came intially in the 30s migrating as commonwealth subjects and then in droves after Israel was created. It was after the declaration of state of Israel and non-acceptance of the new state by the arabs that the newly arrived jewish immigrants started a program of ethnic clensing once the partition was declared. Later they grabbed more territory as they won wars against their neighbours and suppressed Palestinian resistance.

The overall total Palestinian state was arab majority, just like over all British India was Hindu majority. But Palestine had parts in which indigeneous jews were in the majority including in Jerusalem although that was recommended to be administered as an international zone or shared authority. This is just like how parts of NW and NE India were muslim majority.

According to British census in the Palestine mandate exluding Trasn-jordan conducted before the Israeli areas were defined. It had 1.2 million arabs abour 650,000 jews. Which is around 35% jews

 

[Developereo]

^^^Like I said again and again. The state of Israel that was created under the 1948 UNSC resolution (It was much smaller than present day Israel) were Jewish majority were INDIGENEOUS jews were living. These jews(and arab christians) were living since the of the Turkish empire and Salahuddin Ayubi before him going back 100s of years.

Once again, at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Jews made up 7% of the population of the area which was manadated to become a "Jewish State". They were never a majority, not even close, not even in the same ballpark.

And even that 7% was after years of clandestine migration. Most Jews had simple left the area after the Roman conquest.

 

[ARSENAL6]

We should feel sorry for you if you really believe that I was serious about that comment.

MORE COMEDY !

THe Idea that you think that ships can be pushed on sea ?
Hey man YOU'RE the one who typed that retarded comment - NOT ME !
YOu belive it so Im merly posting what you posted stupid !
Now you crindge in embassesment in that little hole of yours.
I mean come one, your post are soooo retarded, I have posted the link where you have typed that conjure up that stupid remark and all you can do is lie about it ?

 

[EjazR]

@Developereo

Did you go through the links I posted? The creation of Israel and its borders in 1948 were based on the estimated population in 1945 not 1917. The last census were done by the British in 1931. Even under the Ottomans, their census indicated a jewish majority in jerusalem.

Now I'm not arguing on the merits of creating states on the basis for religious majorities and minorites, but this was the principle used. Read the UN text. And Jerusalem was to be administered as an international enclave due to its importance.

Here is another link from a Palestinian website with tables of jewish populations and arabs as per the UN and British surveys. Again in 1946, they comprised around 35% of Palestine mandate.
MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

If you look at the map of 1948 Israel, you will see that it was a little disjointed, similar to case of how west and east pakistan had to be 1000 miles apart. Moreover, the jewish populations in uk, us and ussr had supported the allies both financially and militarily. Just as Jinnah and Muslim league had supported the British politcally while the Congress leaders shot themselves in the foot by launching the quit india movement and getting arrested and incarecerated. As the political atmosphere worsened with competing jewish and arab nationalism there was cross migration sometimes forced migration of jews and arabs to their respective majority areas.

Just like the Jinnah reminded the British of their support to the British during the war and guarantee of Pakistan for their co-operation; the jews then reminded the british of their promise to protect jewish interest and partion of palestine into a jewish homeland in return of their support.

Just like the existence of Pakistan has to be accepted, the same is with Israel. Even though we may not like the prinicple being used. That is why its hypocrtical if you deny Israel's right to exist. Espicially since these are the only two countries that were created on the basis of religion and were created by the British using this principle.

 

[Creder]

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but hey we're the terrorists right ?

 

[Developereo]

@Developereo

Did you go through the links I posted? The creation of Israel and its borders in 1948 were based on the estimated population in 1945 not 1917. The last census were done by the British in 1931. Even under the Ottomans, their census indicated a jewish majority in jerusalem.

But that's my whole point. History doesn't start in 1948 or 1931. The Balfour Declaration, when the British declared Palestine to be a future Jewish homeland was signed in 1917. Already at that time, it was decided that this land was going to be for Jews only (or mostly), even though Jews made up only 7% of the population. And even this was after decades of clandestine migration at the turn of the century.

The Zionists had previously approached the Ottoman Emperor about forming Israel and been rebuffed, so they went to plan B: clandestine migration, anti-Arab terrorism to evict the Palestinians, and meticulous military preparation for the inevitable conflict when they would declare independence.

All this while the Arabs were clueless and were blindly trusting the British to keep their word for a pan-Arab homeland in exchange for the Arabs' anti-Ottoman revolt.

The Jews may have been a majority within the city of Jerusalem proper, but Jerusalem is not all of Palestine. They had to be imported in from all over the world, mostly Europe+US, over the next few decades in order to make a proper Jewish state with a significant Jewish population. And the Palestinians had to be evicted.

This is completely different from Pakistan. Nobody had to import Muslims into Pakistan to artificially create a Muslim majority population.

Also, the British signed the Balfour Declaration not to thank British Jews for help in the war (WW2 hadn't happened yet), but in a misquided and misinformed attempt to appease the newly powerful Russian Bolsheviks, whom the British (incorrectly) thought were mostly Jewish.

The BBC documentary explains all this quite well.