Muslim-Jew seeks new approach to Arab-Israeli peace

[gambit]

Bottom line, there will be no peace in Palestine until Jewish rabbis stop telling their people that they are entited to the land because God has reserved it for them. Israel ceased to exist when the Romans captured it in AD70.

If the Roman Empire, an Earthly authority, erased Israel from the political map once, then it served only to highlight the impermanence of nation-states for only as long as that nation-state can manage to defend its existence. That said, what the Romans once erased, the new world order resurrected and the resurrected Israel so far have been quite successful in defending itself. Bottom line...The demand to accept what the Romans did as absolute is absurd. No one complained about how the new world order partitioned the rest of the ME that gave the Arabs most of the oil wealth.

 

[Developereo]

The demand to accept what the Romans did as absolute is absurd.

The point is that the current state of Israel is formed by duplicity, betrayal and terrorism, backed by religious fundamentalism, both Christian and Jewish.

The Israeli claim to Palestine, pre 1900s, is not backed by anything that would have stood up in any court of law. It relies purely on the belief that this piece of land is reserved exclusively by God for his Chosen People and that the Jews should 'return to Zion'.

When the British inherited Palestine, after the Arabs helped defeat the Ottomans, they basically parcelled out the land to the Jews as appeasement to Bolshevik Jews.

The BBC documentary explains all this quite well in a balanced way with first hand interviews with Jewish, Arab and British viewpoints.

No one complained about how the new world order partitioned the rest of the ME that gave the Arabs most of the oil wealth.

Actually the Arabs complained quite a bit when the British renegged on their promise to form a pan-Arab homeland in exchange for the Arab rebellion against the Ottomans. Unbeknownst to the Arabs, the British/French had secretly decided to divide up the Middle East, and also to carve out a piece for Jews. As always, they found random chieftains/warlords who were more than happy to forsake the pan-Arab promise and rule their little tinpot shiekdom instead.

 

[gambit]

The point is that the current state of Israel is formed by duplicity, betrayal and terrorism, backed by religious fundamentalism, both Christian and Jewish.

The Israeli claim to Palestine, pre 1900s, is not backed by anything that would have stood up in any court of law. It relies purely on the belief that this piece of land is reserved exclusively by God for his Chosen People and that the Jews should 'return to Zion'.

When the British inherited Palestine, after the Arabs helped defeat the Ottomans, they basically parcelled out the land to the Jews as appeasement to Bolshevik Jews.

The BBC documentary explains all this quite well in a balanced way with first hand interviews with Jewish, Arab and British viewpoints.

It could also be argued that since Israel did originally exist as a political entity and that incarnation was erased by a superpower, the Roman Empire, and since that time the region has been for the benefits of the muslims, the current incarnation of Israel is a correction of a wrong. And that since then, whatever the Jews invested in human capital in a land far lacking in natural resources, read oil, that investment has returned many times, far greater than what the Arabs done from their territories, it further cement the legitimacy of Israel as a political entity worthy of existence today.

The point here is that there is an obvious contradiction in YOUR argument in that you demand we accept the actions of a superpower, the Roman Empire, but reject the actions of another superpower, the UN. It is clear then whatever ill that can befall the Jews it will be to the delight of the muslims.

Actually the Arabs complained quite a bit when the British renegged on their promise to form a pan-Arab homeland in exchange for the Arab rebellion against the Ottomans. Unbeknownst to the Arabs, the British/French had secretly decided to divide up the Middle East, and also to carve out a piece for Jews. As always, they found random chieftains/warlords who were more than happy to forsake the pan-Arab promise and rule their little tinpot shiekdom instead.

Irrelevant. I am talking about natural wealth here. The Arabs have been like spoiled rich brats, too lazy to advance themselves as a culture. The last truly colonial action the white Europeans performed was the partition of the ME into many discrete territories, Israel included. Since then...Who prevented them from creatiing their own unified Arab uber-state? What a lame excuse you give for the Arabs for their own miserable failure. Saddam Hussein once proposed a political union of Iraq and Syria. Would that have been a good start towards a pan-Arab state? If you genuinely believe in that feeble protest you just gave in defense of a failed people, then you must support what Saddam proposed. It was made independent of any European influence and both regimes were despotic, corrupt and hateful of the Jews. Decades of independence nullified any treacheries the white Europeans may have done.

 

[fhassan]

No, it's rooted in more than that.

No, it isn't.

Conspiracy theorists will always seek complicate matters with convoluted fairy tales and bogus claims, yet the logical supposition still stands with ample evidence. That is, Muslims and Jews got along just fine prior the Zionist takeover:

"...then we can once again coexist as we have for hundreds of years..."

"...we have rabis who will testify, who lived in the old state of Jerusalem, in the old city...before 1948...he'll tell you how he lived, coexisted, with all the Arab neighbors - how they babysat each others children..."

"...when the women went to yumkipur on the fast day the Muslim neighbors babysat the children. the most precious objects they gave to them to protect...."

The anti-Jew sentiments are primarily rooted in sympathy and ignorance; ignorance that has resulted in a mindset whereby Israel and Jew is viewed synonymously. Nevertheless, the Sympathy is exhibited not only by Muslims, but by Orthodox Jews and patrons of humanity in general.

 

[Developereo]

It could also be argued that since Israel did originally exist as a political entity and that incarnation was erased by a superpower, the Roman Empire, and since that time the region has been for the benefits of the muslims, the current incarnation of Israel is a correction of a wrong.

The original state of Israel was formed by the systematic murder and ethnic cleansing of the original inhabitants, the Canaanites, by the invading Hebrews. So any descendents of the Canaanites should have even more legitimacy to the land than the Jews.

And that since then, whatever the Jews invested in human capital in a land far lacking in natural resources, read oil, that investment has returned many times, far greater than what the Arabs done from their territories, it further cement the legitimacy of Israel as a political entity worthy of existence today.

A pathetic attempt at justification if I ever saw one. You are truly grasping at straws here. By your logic, since the Nazis were masterful at technology and development, they should have been given free license to exterminate the Jews.

The point here is that there is an obvious contradiction in YOUR argument in that you demand we accept the actions of a superpower, the Roman Empire, but reject the actions of another superpower, the UN.

You are being facetious here. There was no Israel for 2000 years, long after the Roman Empire ceased to exist. The current incarnation by the US/Britain/France is no more legitimate than a bank robber grabbing money and sitting tight because he has friends in high places.

It is clear then whatever ill that can befall the Jews it will be to the delight of the muslims.


Irrelevant. I am talking about natural wealth here. The Arabs have been like spoiled rich brats, too lazy to advance themselves as a culture. The last truly colonial action the white Europeans performed was the partition of the ME into many discrete territories, Israel included. Since then...Who prevented them from creatiing their own unified Arab uber-state? What a lame excuse you give for the Arabs for their own miserable failure. Saddam Hussein once proposed a political union of Iraq and Syria. Would that have been a good start towards a pan-Arab state? If you genuinely believe in that feeble protest you just gave in defense of a failed people, then you must support what Saddam proposed. It was made independent of any European influence and both regimes were despotic, corrupt and hateful of the Jews. Decades of independence nullified any treacheries the white Europeans may have done.

Whatever the rest of the Arabs did or didn't do with their time is irrelevant to the Palestinians. Your tendency to lump people together as a 'failed people' is getting tiresome. Are you gearing up for another one of your rants against Arabs/Muslims?

 

[gambit]

The original state of Israel was formed by the systematic murder and ethnic cleansing of the original inhabitants, the Canaanites, by the invading Hebrews. So any descendents of the Canaanites should have even more legitimacy to the land than the Jews.

Applicable to all, even to the muslims.

A pathetic attempt at justification if I ever saw one. You are truly grasping at straws here. By your logic, since the Nazis were masterful at technology and development, they should have been given free license to exterminate the Jews.

Wroooonnnnggg...The more appropriate analogy would be that the more the Germans invested their human capital in their own country, the greater the legitimacy their claim to their country based upon their investments.

You are being facetious here. There was no Israel for 2000 years, long after the Roman Empire ceased to exist. The current incarnation by the US/Britain/France is no more legitimate than a bank robber grabbing money and sitting tight because he has friends in high places.

Heck...That would make illegitimate all the Arab states since the current politically recognized borders are from the same source.

Whatever the rest of the Arabs did or didn't do with their time is irrelevant to the Palestinians. Your tendency to lump people together as a 'failed people' is getting tiresome. Are you gearing up for another one of your rants against Arabs/Muslims?

Looky here...Your excuse for the Arabs' failure is how the white Europeans betrayed them. This is not about the Palestinians. This is about why are the many Arab states so relatively backward to the one Jewish state. Your excuse failed. The point here is that why is there an objection to the creation of a Jewish state when there are NO objections to the creation of the many Arab states and that the Arabs were unknowingly given oil wealthy lands at that.

 

[asq]

First, I'd like to say that haji.muhammad is NOT my sock puppet. But he does illustrate very well the sort of stuff Mark is trying to combat. I hope the mods keep it.

Second, I'd like to try to narrow things down to the topics covered by the article.

asq, for example, cites a property seizure in Jerusalem, presumably as an instance of injustice. But if the house was seized because the property deed was forged because the occupant bought the house from someone who had the deed forged after his father slew the Jewish family that lived there in the 1920s, and there's a paper trail to back that up, is such a seizure unjust? For Arabs, too, get their day in court in Israel, and a day in the Jewish press to boot.

The idea that Israel is unjust is at the core of anti-Israel propaganda and one of the things Mark is fighting against. How likely is it that Muslims can accurately learn about Jewish origins, history, and rights when they exist in a stew of Jew-hatred?


It may be hard, but I think discussions, agreements, and documents promoting peace must be made in plain language without citing religious documents. Because citing them serves as an opening, and a way to negate the path to peace by the religiously intolerant.

Law of any land is that if the property was seized 100 years a go, than the defaulters are those who did not pursue in courts of law and than the said property was automatically transferred to the occupants.

But my point in the first post was that Sholomo say that most Jews
are converts and they do not have any claims nor did they have any property in the holy land.

We can talk about history till the cows come home, so let not dwell on it, let us do the right thing.

1. And that is to allow all the Palestinians back to their ancestral homes.

2. Israel should apologize for the atrocities done to Palestinian. in i.e Shatila camp, jailing of teen age children, indiscriminate bombing of citizens, pregnant Palestinian women held at the crossing and were made to have a child in the middle of road. Yong men beaten indiscriminately breaking their arms and legs. I can tell you many more, but i hope that u understand what it is that makes Pakistanis, And I can say this that if this was done by Palestinians to Jews, we the Pakistanis would have reacted the same way as we do for Palestinians.

3. compensate the victims and Nazi are compensating the victims of Holocaust.

4. Withdraw to the pre 1976 borders and recognize Palestinians as a legitimate state with rights of Keeping their Army, police and control all internal and external affairs.

Solomon, your deduction about Religion is not an acceptable gesture as we (meaning Jews, Christians and Muslims) believe in the faith of Ibrahim (Peace and blessings be upon him) and are required to fulfill his commands to the best of our abilities and our commitment should be to do the utmost we can.

We the Muslims believe in the Last Prophet of Allah P.B.U.H. and believe he perfected the Religion of Allah as the last of the prophets.

No body is perfect and Allah is forgiving as long as it is not done intentionally and is not repeated as if mocking the faith and beliefs. so do the best yiou can and do not abandon the faith anf beliefs and the Deen saying it is hard to act on it.

 

[Developereo]

Applicable to all, even to the muslims.

The topic under discussion is the history of Palestine. Do try to stay focussed.

Wroooonnnnggg...The more appropriate analogy would be that the more the Germans invested their human capital in their own country, the greater the legitimacy their claim to their country based upon their investments.

The analogy is completely apt. The Nazis considered the Jews to be inferior and alien to the Fatherland. This is exactly the sentiment of the Zionists towards all non-Jews.

By your logic, Nazism and the Holocaust was justified because, well, the Nazis developed Germany so well.

Heck...That would make illegitimate all the Arab states since the current politically recognized borders are from the same source.

Wrong again. The Arabs had been living there ancient history. The Jews had to be imported from Europe and elsewhere to make Israel.

Looky here...Your excuse for the Arabs' failure is how the white Europeans betrayed them.

Wrong yet again. You are on a roll today...

You brought up the issue of white Europeans as having bestowed the land upon the Arabs. When I set your faulty assertions right, you are now trying to squirm around and find some new angle to bash Arabs.

This is not about the Palestinians. This is about why are the many Arab states so relatively backward to the one Jewish state. Your excuse failed.

Actually this thread is about Israel and the Palestinians. It is you who brought in the wider Arab world to launch into your usual racist rant against Arabs.

Whatever the Arabs do or don't do in their own lands is irrelevant to the Palestinian conflict. Your repeated attempts to link the two smack of desperation when you have run out of legitimate arguments.

Time and again, you keep validating the Nazi ideology for ethnically cleansing our 'lesser' races. Speaks volumes about your mindset.

The point here is that why is there an objection to the creation of a Jewish state when there are NO objections to the creation of the many Arab states and that the Arabs were unknowingly given oil wealthy lands at that.

History and logic not being your strong point, let me reiterate. The Arabs have been living there from the beginning. The Jews left 2000 years ago. End of Israel. Finito. Finish. Bye bye.

 

[EjazR]

I'm not sure why some people are going through arcane arguments of why Israel should'nt exist.


According to the 1948 resolutions, the Jewsih majority areas of Palestine were demarcated as Israel and the arab majority as Palestine. This was the same principle that Pakistan was created. The only two countries to be created on the basis of religion alone. The idea behind this may be argued for and against but that doesn't change this fact.

This is why India actually voted against the UNSC resolution on dividing Palestine on the basis fo religion and proposed a different solution along with Yugoslavia and Iran to have a single state with autonomous jewish and arab majority units.

So yes based on this Israel has the right to exist, but that doesn't absolve the Israeli's responsibilities and their numerous crimes against the Palestinians.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

There are three parties involved in middle east Jews Sunnis and Shia so all three have to be in the talks together for peace.
Mahmoud Abbas represents Sunnis only but not Shias.

 

[gambit]

The topic under discussion is the history of Palestine. Do try to stay focussed.

Take your own advice.

The analogy is completely apt. The Nazis considered the Jews to be inferior and alien to the Fatherland. This is exactly the sentiment of the Zionists towards all non-Jews.

By your logic, Nazism and the Holocaust was justified because, well, the Nazis developed Germany so well.

Still utterly absurd. The point is about the political legitimacy of a nation-state to exist partially based upon investments by the people. The Jews made such investments without resorting to gas chambers for humans.

Wrong again. The Arabs had been living there ancient history. The Jews had to be imported from Europe and elsewhere to make Israel.

Really...??? Then who did the Romans erased and what did they destroyed if there were no Jewish culture there prior to WW II?

Wrong yet again. You are on a roll today...

You brought up the issue of white Europeans as having bestowed the land upon the Arabs. When I set your faulty assertions right, you are now trying to squirm around and find some new angle to bash Arabs.

Now who is in error as well as being contradictory here? It was YOU who brought up the Romans erasure of a Jewish state, an example of foreigners exercising supreme political and military powers and that you demanded that we today accept that judgement as eternal. Why is the Roman Empire's judgement hold greater validity than the UN's? Oh...Sorry...If something bad happened to Jews anywhere, it must be a good thing.

Actually this thread is about Israel and the Palestinians. It is you who brought in the wider Arab world to launch into your usual racist rant against Arabs.

Whatever the Arabs do or don't do in their own lands is irrelevant to the Palestinian conflict. Your repeated attempts to link the two smack of desperation when you have run out of legitimate arguments.

Time and again, you keep validating the Nazi ideology for ethnically cleansing our 'lesser' races. Speaks volumes about your mindset.

Noooo...This is about your contradiction as to why ancient Rome's judgement against Jews should be accepted but not the UN's and Noooo...It is not irrelevant.

The issue is political legitimacy and existence they are highly influenced by investments by a people. Palestine was a country in the geographical sense but hardly a political sense. There was no 'Palestine' as a nation-state. Nomadic tribes do not create civilizations. Like it or not, the seizure of undeveloped territories, based upon the conqueror's definition of 'civilization', has been a driving force in mankind's history. The Romans did it and so did the Arabs and so did the Europeans in the New World against the original 'Americans'. Same when the UN seized Palestine and administered it the territory was undeveloped by their definition. The Jews invested and Israel prospered far in excess of what the Arabs did for their lands, the Arabs are also beneficiaries of that administration, and that prosperity support Israel's claim to right to exist. The creation of modern day Israel by a foreign superpower is no less politically valid than when the Roman Empire erased the old Israel, no less politically valid than when Pakistan was created, no less politically valid than current two Koreas, despite their common cultural and political unity in the past.

You cannot deny the fact that when you advocate for the erasure of Israel from the political map, people are going to ask 'What for?' Do you run an Intel processor? Thank the Jews in Israel. I did some contract fab equipment install for Intel Israel over there a long time ago. Do you take any medicines? Thank the Jews in Israel, depends on the medication, of course. The list of accomplishments by Israel far surpassed other nation-states in the region. That is not a racist insult but an in-your-face fact. Japan's accomplishments far surpassed others in Asia, and I say that as an Asian. When a people declare themselves to be 'independent' of another's political authority, the most important item on the 'to do next' list is diplomatic recognition by other nation-states, or peers. Israel, just like the other Arab nation-states in the region, have had this recognition for decades and this recognition is reenforced by Israel's accomplishments inside and outside the country.

History and logic not being your strong point, let me reiterate. The Arabs have been living there from the beginning. The Jews left 2000 years ago. End of Israel. Finito. Finish. Bye bye.

And I guess living in reality is not your strong point. Just like how it took the Romans' efforts to eliminate Israel and just like how it took the combined political and military might of many nation-states to resurrect Israel, it will require the same level of political and military force to erase Israel again. Wait...Did someone tried a few times and failed?

In the end, possession is 9/10th of the law and the Jews are in full control of what was given to them by the UN, just like how the Arabs are in full control of their territories. So until the Arabs can eliminate Israel through military means, like the Romans did...The Jews will have the last laugh and you will incur carpal tunnel syndrome railing against Israel for nothing. Sorry, buddy...It is not God, but Man, who giveth and taketh away.

 

[MastanKhan]

It could also be argued that since Israel did originally exist as a political entity and that incarnation was erased by a superpower, the Roman Empire, and since that time the region has been for the benefits of the muslims, the current incarnation of Israel is a correction of a wrong. And that since then, whatever the Jews invested in human capital in a land far lacking in natural resources, read oil, that investment has returned many times, far greater than what the Arabs done from their territories, it further cement the legitimacy of Israel as a political entity worthy of existence today.

The point here is that there is an obvious contradiction in YOUR argument in that you demand we accept the actions of a superpower, the Roman Empire, but reject the actions of another superpower, the UN. It is clear then whatever ill that can befall the Jews it will be to the delight of the muslims.




Hi,

So by this reasoning the people who were driven out by the aryans from the plains of punjab in pakistan and india, can come back from south india and claim that land from us---because it was their about 2000 years ago----.

So what happens if the american indian reach out to the UN and want the americas reverted back to them---how about texas and california to mexico---that was taken by force as well---falkland islands as well---what else---oh---I almost missed it---australia---let the natives have their country and let the white man leave----wonderful analogy---thankyou.

Can we have someone come and also wake up the dead from their graves so that they are not left behind either.

 

[asq]

I'm not sure why some people are going through arcane arguments of why Israel should'nt exist.


According to the 1948 resolutions, the Jewsih majority areas of Palestine were demarcated as Israel and the arab majority as Palestine. This was the same principle that Pakistan was created. The only two countries to be created on the basis of religion alone. The idea behind this may be argued for and against but that doesn't change this fact.

This is why India actually voted against the UNSC resolution on dividing Palestine on the basis fo religion and proposed a different solution along with Yugoslavia and Iran to have a single state with autonomous jewish and arab majority units.

So yes based on this Israel has the right to exist, but that doesn't absolve the Israeli's responsibilities and their numerous crimes against the Palestinians.

Very clever on your part to make browny points, but you fail to mention horrendous atrocities committed on Palestinians for 60 years, It is very much like an Indians act as they are also perpetrator in Kashmir, so they either have no clue about Justice, fairness and Democracy or they are knowingly occupying and oppressing unarmed poor people.

To boot, they encircle those poor folks deny them the basic human needs such as water, power, food and medical supplies.

You talk about Israeli responsibility about Palestinians, when do you think it will start, another 60 years, what about the responsibility of U.N. and the world, when would the world act to end the sufferings of poor Palestinians.

No right minded Pakistani on this forum has said that Israel and Jews should be thrown in the oceans, and i have a problem with this kind of false impression being spread against Muslims, No right minded Muslims would ever say a thing like this because Islam prohibits such inhumane acts.

So please, all of you who say such things, stop speaking for Muslims. we only want justice for all, for Palestinians, for kashmiris, and other oppressed ones.

 

[gambit]

Hi,

So by this reasoning the people who were driven out by the aryans from the plains of punjab in pakistan and india, can come back from south india and claim that land from us---because it was their about 2000 years ago----.

So what happens if the american indian reach out to the UN and want the americas reverted back to them---how about texas and california to mexico---that was taken by force as well---falkland islands as well---what else---oh---I almost missed it---australia---let the natives have their country and let the white man leave----wonderful analogy---thankyou.

Can we have someone come and also wake up the dead from their graves so that they are not left behind either.

See here...The creation of the modern state of Israel was not done by the Jews themselves but by foreign superpowers, in other words -- conquerors. So if you want the US to be returned to the Amerinds via the UN, you need to have the UN to utterly militarily defeat the US, not just the US government, which is already the most powerful on the planet, but also the current American citizenry, which is the most well armed people on the planet. Once a people heavily invested in the land and reaped benefits from their investments, it can be quite difficult to wrest that land from them. You will not be able to persuade them to leave. You must take it from them by force.

 

[EjazR]

Very clever on your part to make browny points, but you fail to mention horrendous atrocities committed on Palestinians for 60 years, It is very much like an Indians act as they are also perpetrator in Kashmir, so they either have no clue about Justice, fairness and Democracy or they are knowingly occupying and oppressing unarmed poor people.

To boot, they encircle those poor folks deny them the basic human needs such as water, power, food and medical supplies.

You talk about Israeli responsibility about Palestinians, when do you think it will start, another 60 years, what about the responsibility of U.N. and the world, when would the world act to end the sufferings of poor Palestinians.

No right minded Pakistani on this forum has said that Israel and Jews should be thrown in the oceans, and i have a problem with this kind of false impression being spread against Muslims, No right minded Muslims would ever say a thing like this because Islam prohibits such inhumane acts.

So please, all of you who say such things, stop speaking for Muslims. we only want justice for all, for Palestinians, for kashmiris, and other oppressed ones.

I'm not getting any brownie points here and neither is this thread about KAshmir. people of J&K get Indian passports and can even be part of the Union government of India. Can the palestinians do that in Israel? The Palestinian territories are not considered part of Israel and no courts or human rights jurisdiction follows there from the ISraeli pov. While the Indian human rights comission and Supreme court has jurisdiction there.


Its strange that you say no one is saying that jews should be thrown in the sea, but you just thanked a post above me where Developero said jews left ISrael 2000 years ago and thats the end of Israel "finito" as he put it.

I have cleraly stated that the pre-1967 Israel was Jewish majority based on the local jews living there. Ofcourse once the huge number of european jews who were zionists and fanatics came, they ethnic clensed the arab minorities out of those areas. Hence the right to return of refugees is an important part of the peace process.

That's why Israeli atleast the pre1967 Israel is perfectly right to exist especially since Pakistan was formed on the same principle of religious majority and minority by the then British government. You might say that the British had a habit of leaving a mess behind but then we can't rewrite history.