On the background of General Muzharraf vacating the army house the newspapers stated that General Musharraf who now a days is in UK, is shifting to UK and is currently about purchasing a flat in London. Reacting to it as usual Brig (Retd) Rashid Qureshi strongly contradicted this news and warned media of serving legal notice. In my long life particularly during the last about three decades I have read and heard such unaccountable number of threats of taking the journalists, the newspapers to courts but has never ever seen even a single one actually doing so reason always being all those who threat are always invariably liars. I do remember having read a news about two years back(not our Pakistani media which according to General Musharraf is suffering from Ansar-burni phobia publishes articles without prior verifications of the facts or still is an immature press in the words of our present president Asif Zardari). It was published by the Saudi Arabians Daily Urdu News Jeddah that Begum Mushraff who was then going to US to attend graduation of their daughter on her return back would stay in Boston (or Hoston) for renovation of their property there. I might still have this press item with me. There is no doubt all our leaders, even todays middle lower level ones have created properties outside for their kids.
Musharraf Vacates Army House
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araz
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mairey Bhai.
Please at least verify news from different sources beofre responding in such strong words. Musharraf has just built a farm house in Islamabad, which he was due to move into. He earned a lot of dollars from his lectures and book. So what if he bought a house in US/ or UK. Alot of people have done it. Whereas i am not a fan of Musharraf ,for various reasons, his stay has been singularly free of any major scandals and pilferring of money. Even kaleem Saadat statement about him spoiling the erieye deal can be easily defended. If he had not gotten bad advise on the CJP issue and the NRO, he would have been a successful ruler in pakistan's checquered histroy. However, if you have such strong views please defend your stand
WaSalam
Araz
Khalids
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Dear Araz,
Do you think that a person earning commission or making a big fortue out of his/her power in government is a corrupt person and there is no type of corruption beyond this?
Please read this quote from Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him): "A kafir (non Muslim) system may survive, but an unjust system can not survive."
Musharraf kicked off the Constitution of Pakistan when he took over the goverment on 12-10-1999. He deserves to be hanged till death for this crime only. He took the government on gun point while constitution says that the ruler will be decided only through ballot. When a person unjustly abandone her/her own country's supreme law, the constitution, he/she proves him/herself to be worst than a traitor.
I call not only him but all the military dictators of the world IDIOTS because they are only goverment servents and they occupy thier own countries and destroy the system. So, if a person who takes oath (like all the commissioned officers do at the time they pass out PMA) that he will remain loyal to the government and will never take part in politics and then he can not hold to his own oath. Does a reasonable person do this?
Musharraf was only a grade 22 officer, if I am not wrong. Do you think that a government officer has got a right to oust an elected government just because he/she has got support from some armed personnel? If this is the case then why are we blaming Taliban for making people their slaves on gun point?
Again I am recalling an other gem of wisdom from Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him): "Power, wealth and fame do not change people but uncover them." Musharraf was uncovered by CJP's courageous stand not to resigne against his will.
Popular leadership of the country was put to exile during first 8 years of his dictatorship therefore masses had no one to lead them to protest against the tyrany practiced by Musarraf. They saw a leader in CJP and took out onto the streets. Do you think that Pakistani people started protesting against a great ruler (as some of Musharraf's promotors reckon) and forgetting his services for the country just because he wanted CJP to resign from his office?
Waqt kerta hai perwarish barsooN
Hadsa ek dum naheeN hota
Let me recall an other piece of wisdom from Plato's The Republic that never let a trader or a military ruler rule your society. (these are not exact words of Plato but an interpretation from me, any one can refer to his work). Now, this notion put into human minds after deep thinking from one of the greatest philosophers of human history approximately 2500 years back, holds good because histroy has witnessed only destruction by military rulers. Are we so archaic and primitive that we must cling to dictators?
So, my dear, its not speaking against any personality but against unjustice. Who ever do this, who ever abandone the constitution, must be condemned. And we must not feel sorry for that what ever comes before us as a result of this. Musharraf may be a clean person interms of financial corruption (I doubt it though), but was surely a power corrupt, just like Roman rulers, who thought himself to be above the law.
BTW do you or any other have accurate statistics about how many copies of "In the line of fire" were sold and how much royalty Musharraf got from the publisher(s) so that it may be determined whether has could purchase chak shehzad farm house worth billions of rupees. It is for sure that his biography was not the year's best seller.
Do you think that a person earning commission or making a big fortue out of his/her power in government is a corrupt person and there is no type of corruption beyond this?
Please read this quote from Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him): "A kafir (non Muslim) system may survive, but an unjust system can not survive."
Musharraf kicked off the Constitution of Pakistan when he took over the goverment on 12-10-1999. He deserves to be hanged till death for this crime only. He took the government on gun point while constitution says that the ruler will be decided only through ballot. When a person unjustly abandone her/her own country's supreme law, the constitution, he/she proves him/herself to be worst than a traitor.
I call not only him but all the military dictators of the world IDIOTS because they are only goverment servents and they occupy thier own countries and destroy the system. So, if a person who takes oath (like all the commissioned officers do at the time they pass out PMA) that he will remain loyal to the government and will never take part in politics and then he can not hold to his own oath. Does a reasonable person do this?
Musharraf was only a grade 22 officer, if I am not wrong. Do you think that a government officer has got a right to oust an elected government just because he/she has got support from some armed personnel? If this is the case then why are we blaming Taliban for making people their slaves on gun point?
Again I am recalling an other gem of wisdom from Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him): "Power, wealth and fame do not change people but uncover them." Musharraf was uncovered by CJP's courageous stand not to resigne against his will.
Popular leadership of the country was put to exile during first 8 years of his dictatorship therefore masses had no one to lead them to protest against the tyrany practiced by Musarraf. They saw a leader in CJP and took out onto the streets. Do you think that Pakistani people started protesting against a great ruler (as some of Musharraf's promotors reckon) and forgetting his services for the country just because he wanted CJP to resign from his office?
Waqt kerta hai perwarish barsooN
Hadsa ek dum naheeN hota
Let me recall an other piece of wisdom from Plato's The Republic that never let a trader or a military ruler rule your society. (these are not exact words of Plato but an interpretation from me, any one can refer to his work). Now, this notion put into human minds after deep thinking from one of the greatest philosophers of human history approximately 2500 years back, holds good because histroy has witnessed only destruction by military rulers. Are we so archaic and primitive that we must cling to dictators?
So, my dear, its not speaking against any personality but against unjustice. Who ever do this, who ever abandone the constitution, must be condemned. And we must not feel sorry for that what ever comes before us as a result of this. Musharraf may be a clean person interms of financial corruption (I doubt it though), but was surely a power corrupt, just like Roman rulers, who thought himself to be above the law.
BTW do you or any other have accurate statistics about how many copies of "In the line of fire" were sold and how much royalty Musharraf got from the publisher(s) so that it may be determined whether has could purchase chak shehzad farm house worth billions of rupees. It is for sure that his biography was not the year's best seller.
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Mr. Khalids, with due respect, my piece of advise to you is.. please stop watching geo tv, do your own home work before trying to comment on things just based on media reports.
first of all musharraf, was and still earning reasonable amount of money from the royality from his bood as it was launched in new yorks's best publisher. he is every earning lot of money ($100,000-200,000) from his every lecture he is giving these days (more than 10 has already been done), so do your homwork my friend.
secondly, regarding cj, he did the right thing at first place as it was a legal matter but supreme judicial council did not even consider any alegation against cj and re-instated him. he even did'nt stop issuing sue-moto actions ( more than 17 in a month) instead of doing his own job. anyway, political parties took as maximum benifite as they could on this issue.
musharraf did not rob pakistan as nawaz sharif and zardari did.
first of all musharraf, was and still earning reasonable amount of money from the royality from his bood as it was launched in new yorks's best publisher. he is every earning lot of money ($100,000-200,000) from his every lecture he is giving these days (more than 10 has already been done), so do your homwork my friend.
secondly, regarding cj, he did the right thing at first place as it was a legal matter but supreme judicial council did not even consider any alegation against cj and re-instated him. he even did'nt stop issuing sue-moto actions ( more than 17 in a month) instead of doing his own job. anyway, political parties took as maximum benifite as they could on this issue.
musharraf did not rob pakistan as nawaz sharif and zardari did.
Khalids
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LOL, dear Dherky, Allah is my vitness that I have never seen Geo TV for two consecutive days.
OK, if Zardari and Nawaz are wrong than Musharraf is right. Great home work man. Please gauge any person on the basis of principles or rules not by comparing with other persons. You can not even catch a thief through this way.
His farm house in chak shehzad was puchased before his lecturer job. CJP had a sou moto action on this matter too. I have seen this farm house myself, not enough home work, sir?
My question is, do an army official have any legal or constitutional right to dismiss a CJ?
Second question, do any army official have a legal or constitutional right to over throw an elected government?
Third question, do any person, while in power, have any right to promote his biography on state expenses?
Fourth...............
Ok, ok, ok its enough for todays home work.
BTW, why Musharraf signed NRO to purify Zardari?
May I say, chore ne chore ko bachaya.
OK, if Zardari and Nawaz are wrong than Musharraf is right. Great home work man. Please gauge any person on the basis of principles or rules not by comparing with other persons. You can not even catch a thief through this way.
His farm house in chak shehzad was puchased before his lecturer job. CJP had a sou moto action on this matter too. I have seen this farm house myself, not enough home work, sir?
My question is, do an army official have any legal or constitutional right to dismiss a CJ?
Second question, do any army official have a legal or constitutional right to over throw an elected government?
Third question, do any person, while in power, have any right to promote his biography on state expenses?
Fourth...............
Ok, ok, ok its enough for todays home work.
BTW, why Musharraf signed NRO to purify Zardari?
May I say, chore ne chore ko bachaya.
Muradk
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Just for members info
COAS is entitled to stay the the residence he was given for 1 to 1 1/2 year extended up to 2 years. The incoming COAS doesn't matter because he gets all the facilities at his current residence is he is in Pindi if not from Pindi he move to the second COAS residence on mall road.
COAS is entitled to stay the the residence he was given for 1 to 1 1/2 year extended up to 2 years. The incoming COAS doesn't matter because he gets all the facilities at his current residence is he is in Pindi if not from Pindi he move to the second COAS residence on mall road.
qsaark
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To the best of my knowledge there is no maximum time period, it is on the desecration of the than present COAS. Some ex COASs have been asked to leave the Army house within 6 months (I guess General Jahangir Kiramat was one of them).
LOL, dear Dherky, Allah is my vitness that I have never seen Geo TV for two consecutive days.
OK, if Zardari and Nawaz are wrong than Musharraf is right. Great home work man. Please gauge any person on the basis of principles or rules not by comparing with other persons. You can not even catch a thief through this way.
His farm house in chak shehzad was puchased before his lecturer job. CJP had a sou moto action on this matter too. I have seen this farm house myself, not enough home work, sir?
My question is, do an army official have any legal or constitutional right to dismiss a CJ?
Second question, do any army official have a legal or constitutional right to over throw an elected government?
Third question, do any person, while in power, have any right to promote his biography on state expenses?
Fourth...............
Ok, ok, ok its enough for todays home work.
BTW, why Musharraf signed NRO to purify Zardari?
May I say, chore ne chore ko bachaya.
Khalids,
Where do you get off quoting Syedna Ali whenever it suits you? If you talk about an unjust and unacceptable system, then why not talk about Sharia vs. democracy? What is more unjust than having a bunch of illiterates picking something for themselves on the basis of majority vs. what Islam tells us? Islam tells us to pick the best amongst us to lead, not the ones who get to spend the most on publicity and advertising so it gets them the most vote. Islamic leadership is based on quality and not quantity of votes...yet here you are quoting Syedna Ali RA to score points against Musharraf, yet pushing your pro-democracy agenda.
Do realize that things are quite a bit more complicated than what you are trying to make them out to be.
While you have massive issues with Musharraf's house in Chak Shehzad, have you ever wondered about the Disney land in Raiwind? How did that come about? Or the $1.2 billion stashed in accounts overseas by Zardari and team all under the garb of democracy?
So lets take your questions:
Yes he does. The CJ took an oath under the PCO that was put in place by the same Army official. If the CJ was so honest and upright and devoted to the constitution of Pakistan, why did he take the oath under the PCO of 2001?
No they do not. But if you talk about an unjust system, then you do not have to go much further than the second term of NS. He desecrated the judiciary (by sending his thugs to the SC of Pakistan, which in my book is worse than Musharraf firing the CJ), tried to fire the CoAS by endangering the lives of many civilians (why could he not wait to have Musharraf arrive and then fire him? Why stop a civilian airliner from landing? So bottom line is what is so legal about NS doing all of the same things that now his supporters cry about with regards to Musharraf?
Now don't come back with your usual defence (By the grace of the Almighty I am not a supporter of NS or anyone else etc...).
Ok you are right. That was inappropriate (however I do not know how him promoting his biography was an expense to the state?) He was in the US for a meeting with the US president (an official visit). He signed his book during the same trip. I would have had a major problem if the sole purpose of his state funded trip had been to promote the book. That was not the case. Secondly, in my opinion, the book actually helps address some of the issues that Pakistan has had with its image. The book was written for a foreign audience so they could better understand the challenges Pakistan was facing. Half the money made on the books went to a charity (I do not recall the name but Musharraf himself mentioned it in an interview).
Its not really homework for anyone. Its mostly your one-sided tirade. Most here have been around this issue many times over. Pakistan's political system is an imperfect one. The issues you bring up are nothing new, but on a personal level, Musharraf has been more honest than any of his detractors including the Sharif and Bhutto clans. Let that be clear. None of the dirt that has been thrown Musharraf's way has stuck because its mostly baseless. I have certain other issues with Musharraf's rule but they do not relate to either his disregard for the constitution of Pakistan (which I really do believe is not more important than Pakistan herself) or personal honesty (I have yet to see a credible case of wrong doing on his part).
Khalids
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Dear Blain2, we as a nation have never stuck ourselves to rules and regulations so we are bieng tested and tested stiffly by our Lord.
Yes, NS or Zardari are also bad rulers. Their corruption dosn't mean that a military dictator is right. Clause 6 of the constitution says that a person abandoning the constitution should be liable to capital punishment. Worst crime than financial punishment, it is the point I am trying to emphasize on.
Please spare some time to read out some works of Muslim scholars about an Islamic state.
Electorial democracy in Pakistan is not the remedy of all the deseases but we will reach at a point of history when we will be able to claim that we have a better ruling class than we have now. But we can achieve it only if we let this process work for years to come.
As for as democracy vs islam is concerned, I think (its my opinion based on what little I have read) that its basically wrong way of comparison. It should be democretic vs islamic. Let me clarify it. If we find any thing close to islamic doctrines in a democretic system its all right to adopt it. But if we find any thing confronting islamic doctrines we must reject it even if it is adopted in a so called islamic society. Am I putting the things rightly? I am again quoting Hazrat Ayesha (Allah be pleased with her) as:
khuz ma safa da' ma kaddara
Take what is pure and reject waht is impure
Ok, now Islam dosn't say that there sould be a dictator over the massess. Islam dosn't say the ruler shoud present himself/herself fo the government (so there must be some amendment in electorial process). Islam dosn't say that a ruler is not accountable for his/her wrong doings. (therefore no exception for Musharraf, Zardari or NS. No NRO please).
Yes, Islam says that your country's system must be run through counsell. (shoora). But, how will you select the shoora. Today's elections are a way to select shoora. The process of selection must be overhauled but it should not be stoped.
I must humbly submit that I have tried to quote any personality not just because it suits me. If any thing is wrong in me and qouted by you, I'll eccept it. Honestly. I just qouted to support my argument and to describe what is my source of inspiration rather than these personalities we are baring today.
As you suggested, this debate is going in the wrong thread, I suppose. So I'll not be repying after this.
Take care.
Yes, NS or Zardari are also bad rulers. Their corruption dosn't mean that a military dictator is right. Clause 6 of the constitution says that a person abandoning the constitution should be liable to capital punishment. Worst crime than financial punishment, it is the point I am trying to emphasize on.
Please spare some time to read out some works of Muslim scholars about an Islamic state.
Electorial democracy in Pakistan is not the remedy of all the deseases but we will reach at a point of history when we will be able to claim that we have a better ruling class than we have now. But we can achieve it only if we let this process work for years to come.
As for as democracy vs islam is concerned, I think (its my opinion based on what little I have read) that its basically wrong way of comparison. It should be democretic vs islamic. Let me clarify it. If we find any thing close to islamic doctrines in a democretic system its all right to adopt it. But if we find any thing confronting islamic doctrines we must reject it even if it is adopted in a so called islamic society. Am I putting the things rightly? I am again quoting Hazrat Ayesha (Allah be pleased with her) as:
khuz ma safa da' ma kaddara
Take what is pure and reject waht is impure
Ok, now Islam dosn't say that there sould be a dictator over the massess. Islam dosn't say the ruler shoud present himself/herself fo the government (so there must be some amendment in electorial process). Islam dosn't say that a ruler is not accountable for his/her wrong doings. (therefore no exception for Musharraf, Zardari or NS. No NRO please).
Yes, Islam says that your country's system must be run through counsell. (shoora). But, how will you select the shoora. Today's elections are a way to select shoora. The process of selection must be overhauled but it should not be stoped.
I must humbly submit that I have tried to quote any personality not just because it suits me. If any thing is wrong in me and qouted by you, I'll eccept it. Honestly. I just qouted to support my argument and to describe what is my source of inspiration rather than these personalities we are baring today.
As you suggested, this debate is going in the wrong thread, I suppose. So I'll not be repying after this.
Take care.
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