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Musharraf: Pakistan Exposed India's Military Weakness

The end game was not thought out. The initial objectives were met and it surprised even the planners. It was a fiasco no doubt, shouldnt have happened.

If i'm guessing right you are talking of eventual diplomatic failure! which was to agree on cease fire.

otherwise, technically it was not a bad menuvor! and results proved it....
Indian bofors failed, indian airforce failed and l.o.l even indian navy failed.

Even on this thread indian members have stated that Pakistan had cut off supply route of 300k india soldiers...
and in matter few weeks it would be impossible for indians to sustain any military operations, due to snow.

there cannot be a more compellin greason for indians to cross IB and Isralei army was there fighting along side indians and both realised militarily it si impossible and than Israelis, not only organised Indian meeting with US (a non ally state of india) but used their connections to help india on diplomatic front.

BTW..today, india is building a tunnel to have redundant supply route..... that too with the help and advise of Israel.
if india was not vulnerable than what is the need to build the tunnel.
 
Again, one officer's comment. A. H. Amin has a bone to grind as such I no longer take his comments as objective. Secondly, the so-called myth was propagated by the British and applied to Punjabi Musalman and Sikh, Pathan and a few more races (predominantly Hindu). There has never been any institutional basis for such theory (or myth as stated above). We recruit from certain areas, just the same as you, but others are welcome.
Do you now want me to quote historians, Pakistani as well as foreign ones? (It would take some time of course).

Yes we all know how the myth originated.

Lastly, can you please specify from which of the 'certain areas' we recruit ? While at it do tell us, what percentage of the military consists of these recruits.

There was never a Pakistani threat from the East. Thus the Indian pre-emption was even more unfounded.
So now you will also define how India should have modulated its threat perception?

You do realise, don't you, that the current boundary between Indo-BD is manned primarily by para-military forces, enabling release of valuable military resources which are now deployed in other and real areas of threat. Had there been an East Pakistan, a significant portion of these resources would have been tied down along that border, given Pakistan's proven unpredictability.

Had Kashmir not been an issue, India would not have intervened militarily in East Pakistan.
Had Pakistanis not fcuked up in East Pakistan and engaged in an orgy of slaughter and rapes, had the refugees not poured into India in millions, had US been proactive, had UN been not a US sidekick, there wouldn't have been any military intervention in East Pakistan, Kashmir or no Kashmir. Is that so hard to understand?
The whole idea in the minds of the Indian planners was to cut Pakistan down to size to reduce the military threat...
That may have been the plan, but again, with Pakistan's proven unpredictability (1965) who wouldn't have planned that way.

Curiously, though, once you claim that 'there was never a Pakistani threat from the East' but then in the next line you say Indian planners were trying 'to reduce the military threat'. Can you at least keep your logic straight.

....and end the Kashmir problem for once and for all on their terms.
That is what you think what the Indian planners were thinking. Your thoughts are just your thoughts. No more.

There is a school of thought in India which, with all the wisdom of hindsight, blames Ms Gandhi for not solving Kashmir issue once and for all, in exchange of 90,000 prisoners. She didn't, for whatever reasons. That alone disproves your point.

This has certainly has not gone their way and most here would agree (on the other hand it has not gone our way either).
None of the issues that were on the table on the morning of 15th August 1947 have been resolved between the two. So talking about resolution of anything is a joke.
You have raised a strawman and is now desperately trying to beat it down. Go ahead. Knock yourself out.
 
Do you now want me to quote historians, Pakistani as well as foreign ones? (It would take some time of course).

Yes we all know how the myth originated.

Lastly, can you please specify from which of the 'certain areas' we recruit ? While at it do tell us, what percentage of the military consists of these recruits.

Quote all the historians in the world to prove to me that in Pakistan, institutionally, any such mindset was being developed within the armed force. You will not find any thing factual aside from quoting a person here or there. On the issue of "certain areas", look up the recruitment patterns of the British Indian Army. You will find quite a few clues about recruitment from specific areas across pre-partitioned India. This is the historical context to my point.

The rest has been discussed quite a few times over so I won't bother going over it again.
 
Quote all the historians in the world to prove to me that in Pakistan, institutionally, any such mindset was being developed within the armed force. You will not find any thing factual aside from quoting a person here or there.
So it is that famous 'I-am-right-because-I-said-so' gambit. OK. You win.:lol:
On the issue of "certain areas", look up the recruitment patterns of the British Indian Army. You will find quite a few clues about recruitment from specific areas across pre-partitioned India. This is the historical context to my point.
Yes, yes, we all know about that 'divide and rule' policy. The question I asked, remains unanswered though.
The rest has been discussed quite a few times over so I won't bother going over it again.
Sure.
 
Kargil operation was undertaken as a retaliation to Operation Meghdoot carried out by Indian Army in Siachen.IA was successful in capturing some strategic heights which was enuf to cut off any PAK-CHINA cooperation in that area.

Pakistan tried to retaliate thru kargil by blocking our National Highway-1,the lifeline of IA in the valley. according to me Kargil operation was a failure coz India still holds own to those heights in siachen(despite some attempts by Pakistani Army to recapture it) but in kargil PA had to back out within a few months.

An interesting piece of data is that Musharraf was the brigadiar general who was tasked to lead the operation to take back Siachen post Op Meghdoot and after some inital successes was beaten back..

Operation Meghdoot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So there may have been some need to settle old scores when he planned Kargil
 
You said it yourself that pakistan was in better position. and also i have also heard it from many soldiers that we were in better position but winning in a battle doesnt mean everything nawaz must had its own reason to call back army did you hear musharaf criticizing about it.
And those who say kargil was blunder yeah it was the plan that was a blunder what was navaz thinking attacking india and calling back army at the end time. Musharaf was ordered to proceed operation grand slam so he did as he was told

Off course initially we were in the winning position, we had the element of surprise, but what then?.. did Musharraf expect to hold on to the peaks and the Indians would not respond?You would have been cut off from the International communities support as an aggressor and the Indians would have been given a free hand to deal you a blow worse than you can ever imagine.

Once the air attacks by the Indians began it was clear that it was moving to a total conflict, it was 65 all over again, If the PAF intervened then India would have been free to hit any place without accountability and nuclear war was very real. Nawaz was not willing to risk that, and frankly his advisers including the corrupt Saif-ur-Rehman are more responsible. I heard the man myself in Bhurban boasting during Kargil that it was his idea to the PM, the operation did not start when Nawaz gave the go, the op started back in late 98 when I was witness to the sudden movement of Artillery, vehicles, troops across Kohala, Do you think Nawaz is that smart that he starts a very promising peace process and then plans this backstab?.
He was given distorted facts and the much touted picture of him visiting a Kashmir base was infact part of his tour of the northern areas and not him being briefed about Kargil. He came to Murree first(approved a multi-million rupee renovation of the Govt guest house..without knowing where the money wud come from) and then moved on towards kashmir.
On the way back he flew on his scandalous Mi-8 to Abbottabad and then back to isl.
A short lived Tactical victory for a Massive Strategic defeat.. that is the training I think Musharraf got from his days in the Army.
 

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