Musalmani Bangla and its transformation

[SQ8]

The idea of Urdu was to try and keep some common language, however I think in this the Quaid(Jinnah) made a mistake. The idea of a common language would have worked if the region that was Pakistan was essentially a single connected land spread over. Hence, the language would have spread across slowly to become one. Here you had two very different culture systems in general where imposing a language(essentially also Alien technically but still connected to the western wing enough so to diffuse easily) was never going to be possible.

A better solution could have been to impose learning Urdu compulsory for all students up till the 6th or 7th grade(so to get the basics).. and do the same for Bengali in the East. So, English would become the official language.. and all other minor languages become national languages. There would have been opposition from the western provinces but this could have been overcome.

Sadly, the Bengalis who really are the actual proponents of Pakistan were planned to be expunged from the first days of Partition by the politicians of Punjab and NWFP. Thanks to Ghulam Mohammad, the original members and founders of the Muslim league were all made redundant by the time he was through..and the dream of Pakistan was put on a suicidal path then.

 

[Lord ZeN]

We could learn Urdu later as we know Hindi now by mingling more.

You know Hindi ? You learned it mingling with whom?

 

[bongbang]

You know Hindi ? You learned it mingling with whom?

That part I mean mingling with the Pakistanis we could learn Urdu. In BD 5 years child also know Hindi.
Effect of satellite channels
This way BD can rename itself one day Hindidesh

 

[khair_ctg]

But there were some handful of Urdu speakers in Bangla in 1947. Who migrated from other parts of India and Pakistan.
Now general people had very less sense in Urdu. Can we start again by which we gone through this far in British era.
If we had taken Urdu our fate would be the same as the start of British period. We could learn Urdu later as we know Hindi now by mingling more. I was watching some pak time Urdu songs. Many of them were sung by Bengalis. They were very nice.

your other points are somewhat legitimate.

but this is shameful. Urdu was a language of Bengal since 1600s, when native speakers started to exist due to the sultanat(s) spanning from Bengal to Punjab. Urdu also became a second language of native Bengali speakers. almost all educated Bengali-speaking Muslims took up Urdu as second language. this is besides the Urdu-speaking Bengali Muslims, who are Bengali Muslims whose native tongue is Urdu. traditionally for Bengali speaking Muslims, Urdu was the medium to communicate within Bengali Muslims (who had different Bengali dialects, and until formal Calcutta Bengali became widespread), with non-Bengali Muslims and with Hindus.

the number of Urdu-speakers in 1947 East Bengal might have been "handful" but they did not all migrate from India. the Mohajirs - sometimes called Bihari migrants-are different from ethnic Bengali urdu speakers.

traditionally 'sahih' Urdu in Bengal was learned through education. informal Urdu has been spoken by many families scattered throughout and by communities (like in puran Dhaka) in Bangladesh and West Bengal. because of a mix of lowly politics and ignorance (like you and many other Bangladeshis show) many of those families have relegated Urdu to a second language or have even stopped its practice. ethnic Bengali Muslims did not need to 'mingle' with outside people to learn Urdu.

Urdu has natural existence in Bengal with or without the 1947 partition and formation of Pakistan

please refer to my very old post
Bangladesh protests Pakistan Parliament resolutions | Page 40

That part I mean mingling with the Pakistanis we could learn Urdu. In BD 5 years child also know Hindi.
Effect of satellite channels
This way BD can rename itself one day Hindidesh

The idea of Urdu was to try and keep some common language, however I think in this the Quaid(Jinnah) made a mistake. The idea of a common language would have worked if the region that was Pakistan was essentially a single connected land spread over. Hence, the language would have spread across slowly to become one. Here you had two very different culture systems in general where imposing a language(essentially also Alien technically but still connected to the western wing enough so to diffuse easily) was never going to be possible.

A better solution could have been to impose learning Urdu compulsory for all students up till the 6th or 7th grade(so to get the basics).. and do the same for Bengali in the East. So, English would become the official language.. and all other minor languages become national languages. There would have been opposition from the western provinces but this could have been overcome.

Sadly, the Bengalis who really are the actual proponents of Pakistan were planned to be expunged from the first days of Partition by the politicians of Punjab and NWFP. Thanks to Ghulam Mohammad, the original members and founders of the Muslim league were all made redundant by the time he was through..and the dream of Pakistan was put on a suicidal path then.

the only "mistake" Quad e Azam Jinnah made was he did not round up and lock up those Bengali communists for good who started the anti-Urdu Muslimphobic agitations, who were supported immensely liked by like-minded Indians.

MA Jinnah did not make any mistake. Bengali Muslims have more history in Urdu than Pathans from the 'frontier' regions. bhai pahle to ap Bengal mein Urdu zaban ki tarikh sikh le phir kahe ye alien ya kaise zaban hai

in East Pakistan, simply the tradition should have been followed to make people formally learn Urdu like their forefathers have done for ages before 1947. however as i understand, after the Indian-backed 'Bengali' nationalist agitation, Urdu became optional in school after 1956 in East Pakistan

 

[asad71]

[URL='https://defence.pk/members/kalu_miah.13093/']@kalu_miah,[/URL]

The Daily Star English Newspaper Of Bangladesh .`.

Amar Ekushey Granthamela-2015

Keeping an almost extinct script alive
A publisher's story

Staff Correspondent
Beyond business interests, one man's efforts to recover and preserve an almost extinct script are visible at the stall of Utso Prokashan in the Suhrawardy Udyan portion of Amar Ekushey Granthamela-2015 in the capital.

Mustafa Salim, Utso Prokashan's chief executive officer and proprietor, has been publishing ancient puthi (poetic fairy tales and religious stories) and contemporary books in Sylheti Nagri Lipi, a set of 32 alphabets used to write Bangla particularly in Sylhet, Kishoreganj, Mymensingh, Netrakona, Bhairab, Assam, Karimganj and Shilchor.

“It was a script developed to make writing Bangla easier and was used by common and non-academic people,” said Salim, who along with another researcher Md Abdul Mannan have been working to preserve the scripts since 2007.

“Many conjunct letters have been dropped in the script besides only one letter has been kept for letters with similar sounds,” he said giving example of how vowels “Roshshoee” and “Dhirghoee” which represent the “e” sound are represented by “Roshshoee”.

Thus instead of 11 vowels, Nagri has five. Besides, the language is written from the right to the left like Arabic.

Salim said the script evolved during the 14th century and was used mostly by Muslims but as more and more people began attaining modern education, its use slowly declined.

“After the Pakistani (occupation) army burned down the only existing press of the script during the Liberation War of 1971, the use of the script almost became extinct,” said Salim.

Salim said Sufi literature of the 14th century Bengal was written using this script and Utso is trying to rediscover and reprint those with transliteration.

Last year, Utso brought out a Nagri Grantha Shombhar, a set of 25 Sylheti Nagri books.

The titles include Haltunnabi, Jung Nama, Hashor Toran, Moskhil Toran, Doi Khurar Raag, Bahram Johura, Hushiar Gafeleen, Shohor Choreet, Ociotunnabi, Mayarshi Duchra, Mohobbat Nama, Hashor Micheel, Chandra Mukhi, Desh Choreet, Horeen Nama, Kori Nama, Saat Konyar Bakhan, Sodochi Mochla, Soyful Bedat, Sunavaner Puthi, Ved Kaya, Ved Choreet, Nur Porichoy, Ahkame Chorka and Raag Hori Bongsho.

“This year I wrote and edited a book introducing the script and a contemporary puthi by Muhammad Hasnat Anwar, 'Biletnama', was published,” said Salim.

“My aim is not to earn money but I want that our museums should have at least 100 copies of these old treasures,” he added.

Four new books were launched at the fair yesterday while another 91 arrived.

Published: 12:00 am Thursday, February 19, 2015

Last modified: 2:13 am Thursday, February 19, 2015

 

[Saiful Islam]

Salaam @khair_ctg bhai. I have a question did musulmani bangla ever exist in nastaliq script? I know attempts were made.

 

[khair_ctg]

Salaam @khair_ctg bhai. I have a question did musulmani bangla ever exist in nastaliq script? I know attempts were made.

salaam Saif bhai, here is an older post in this thread from the knowledgeable kalu mia.

Musalmani Bangla and its transformation

Musalman Bengali is basically the "informal" Bengali used by Muslims. it has been considered "informal" since colonial times when the development of the formal version or "standard Bengali" was the domain of Bengali Hindu pundits. and so, the formal Bengali is a very classical Hindu Brahmin language, that has ridiculously been the only official formal language of Bangladesh since 1971.

the Muslims were largely left out in the standardization of Bengali. and Bengali Muslims, i believe, did not make that serious a commitment otherwise, because the educated Muslims would be versed in Urdu or Farsi anyways, and could use one of those two as a prestige language, representing their Muslim background as well.

Musalman Bengali did have official work in nastaliq script from Mughal times. some Hindu writers supported this as they published work following that literature (and following the script too??). and Muslim writers in the 19th century used the nastaliq Bengali script and literature as a reaction to the Sanskritization of official Bengali.

 

[imzy90]

I'm actually finding it hilarious all these posts by salty Hindus. Don't be sad that from 0% of Bengalis being Muslim to now being 75% + and growing.

Musalmani Bangla is an actual thing, it's the natural Bengali language as it evolved, whereas what they have tried to impose in their agenda since the days of evil bigots like Banking Chandra Chatterer is a artificial *Tatsama Bangla*. All the Sanskrit is unnatural, Bengali is derived from a Prakrit, it doesn't have all these imported Sanskrit words. It's funny because their little project never fully caught on, they don't even say tatsama, they say totshomo. And almost all people have forgotten that *sadhu Bhasha that was created. Whereas even though Awami traitors like Hasina and co. Are trying to impose Brahmanical Bengali Renaissance teaching, sadhu Bhasha has disappeared. We have loads of Arabic, Persian, Turkic, Austro-Asiatic and Tibeto-Burman loanwords. ALL languages have loanwords but of course Hindus have always been the most delusional of creatures railing on about purity.

As for the comments about speaking Arabic or Urdu or United Arab Desh or *Musalmani Bangla* being a fabrication. These just point to the exceedingly low level of education miserly Bengali Hindus have. At least Indian Hindus (real ones, not those colonised Bengalis of Calcutta) have advanced somewhat.

Islam is on the rise globally, and Zakir Naik is converting half of India, let that colour your dreams

Bangladesh Zindabad!

Bangla is Bangla. There is nothing called Musalmani Bangla and Hindu Bangla. Just because we don't write our mother language in Arabic script doesn't make it Hindu. Language has no religion. We Bangladeshis speak in a slightly different accented Bangla from our West Bengalis but Bangla is a hugely dialect based language. So many dialects in a language is rare.

No one is calling a language Hindu or Muslim. You're not understanding history very well as it hasn't been taught to you with the whole 1971 banging group the Awami League covering things up. What we speak is not natural Bangla, it's a Bangla that was forcibly altered by Hindus a 100 years ago to make it 50% imported Sanskrit and to remove *deshi* words. These things happened and there were counter reactions. There is an agenda to encourage the spread of this corrupted Bangla, it can happen in West Bengal because they have no history (or future, as they'll just be Eastern Bihar), but in Bangladesh there needs to be a concerted effort to weed out this pollution of the natural form of the language.

Ok first of all this is a defense forum for arms security etc. Not Musalmani or language protection defence.
Talking in a English Forum for Bangla makes high sense And I see many members here debunked this issue before, that Language has no religion.

See for the different Bangla dialects

English translation: "A man had two sons."
Bengali Shadhubhasha: "æk bektir duiṭi putrô chhilô." (P)
Nadia/CholtibhashaStandard: æk jon loker duţi chhele chhilo. (M)

Manikganj: æk zoner duiđi saoal asilo. (P)
Mymensingh: æk zôner dui put asil. (P)
Munshiganj(Bikrampur): æk jôner duiđa pola asilo. (P)
Comilla: æk bêđar dui put asil. (P)
Noakhali(Sandwip): æk shôksher dui beţa asilo.
Noakhali (Feni): æk zôner dui hola asil. (P)
Noakhali (Hatia): æk zôn mainsher duga hola asil. (P)
Noakhali (Ramganj): ek zôner dui hut asil. (P)
Barisal(Bakerganj): æk zôn mansher dugga pola asil. (P)
Faridpur: kero mansher duga pola asil. (P)
Sylhet: ex beṭar dui fut/fua asil/aslo. (M)
Chittagong: egua mansher dua poa asil. (P)
South Bengal dialects[edit]
Chuadanga : æk jon lokir duiţo chheile chhilo. (M)
Khulna: æk zon manshir dui sôoal silo. (P)
Jessore: æk zoner duţ sôl sêl. (P)
North Bengal dialects[edit]
Dinajpur: æk manusher dui chhaoa chhilô (P)
Pabna: kono mansher dui chhaoal chhilô. (P)
Bogra: æk jhôner dui bêţa chhoil achhilô. (P)
EastMalda: æk jhôn manuser duţa bêţa achhlô. (P)
Rangpur: æk zon mansher duikna bêţa asil. (P)

• Western Border dialects:

Manbhumi: ek loker duţa beţa chhilô. (M)
Hajong: ek zôn manôlôg duida pôla thakibar.
Chakma: ek jônôtun diba poa el.
Bengali dialects - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now people talk in that many ways that no one can understand well. Khulna, Rajshai, Puran Dhaka, Mymenshing have different dialects. They may sound funny to one another. Sylheti, Noakhali, Chatgaia they are so hard for me that I cant understand what they are saying

From wiki

To a non-Bengali, these dialects may sound or look vastly different, but the difference is mostly a phonological and phonetic one, and not so much a grammatical one. Many dialects share features with the so-calledShadhu Bhashaor "pure language", which was the written standard until the 19th century. Comparison of Bengali dialects gives us an idea about archaic forms of the language as well.

During standardization of Bengali in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the cultural elite were mostly from the regions ofKolkata,Hooghly,Howrah,North 24 ParganasandNadia. What is accepted as the standard form today in both West Bengal and Bangladesh is based on the West-Central dialect. While the language has been standardized today through two centuries of education and media, variation is widespread, with many speakers familiar with or fluent in both their socio-geographical variety as well as the standard dialect used in the media.

So you can understand why we are using a standard dialect. So that everyone understand it well and language remain stable.

Now what is Muslamani Bangla? You think Musalmani Bangla dont exist? Then what are these words we using albat, namaj, kalam, allah, billah etc etc. So Muslamani bangla exist and not only Arbi, farsi but its getting influence from other languages as well.

Bangla first book was charyapad. And which was written by Buddists. So you can see every religions contributed to this religion Hindu, Muslim, Buddhists and Christians. So its a neutral secular language. And the language they used to write literates in 19th century are vastly different from today Bangla spoken in BD and India.

Language is ever changing and Im hopeful after 100 years people will talk in English only. Why develop other language. Where we can talk in same language. You are trying to give us impression that Bangladesh is a gift of India and its language is given by Hindus. We have nothing to do here. When people have got a stable platform to entracte and develop knowledge you want to get back to a utopian world. If you are too eager on Hindi/Urdu. Know that 50% Bengalis understand that and 100% can understand it by a short teachings as Bengali is Aryan language.

First of all Muslims have nothing to with tribalism, nationalism and literature. They are not here to contribute in this world. Loyalty is to another world. So why Muslims would develop something here. Muslims should be thankful to the people who developed Bangla. And today we can see lots of books in Bangla are written by Muslims. And if you are too eager on Musalmani Bangla then go to the slum dwellers who's forefathers never touched any books other than the green one. Im sure you will get a feel

Wow, are all Calcuttan Hindus this thick? Who is banging on about language having a religion? No one. Get over it. What is being highlighted is the reality of the brutal oppression that Bengali Hindus with the British Raj imposed on Bengali Muslims with cultural, religious and physical aggression. That's the reality and 1971 was the ultimate backlash and kick in your face. You attempted to annihilate the Bengali language with a concerted artificial attempt to *Hinduize* the language. Why are you so obsessed with Sanskrit? Why don't you just become West Sanskritland

Paranoia about Religion and Language?
Religion and Language is like
Religion and Politics, and that is also like
Politics and Money.

This pairing should never be paired up, they should never influence each other, they should be left alone.

I'm sorry my Bangladeshi brother but I agree with my Bengalis from India, this is such a silly thread. (Oh no, where slowly turning into hindus through our language, everyone scream and shout. SACARSM) What's next? Hindu invaders, invading Bangladesh through our rivers? This thread is pointless.

You have to understand the the Bengali language, it was NEVER and I repeat NEVER a language of religion, it was a language of the common folk, (the common folk being the people of BANG later Bengali) -throughout history many religion influenced Bengali, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam, and it was becaue Bengalis kept changing their religion and grew.

Also understand, one day many Bangladeshis will become more secular, and as matter of fact, you cannot beat that, now if you sees this being detrimental to the muslim faith, you need to start questioning yourself.

Also Bangladeshis should have alot more to care about than religion. for example how to earn money.

This is the most pointless thread ever, I hope my Bengali Brethren in Bangladesh. What is it with you jamatis.

What is with you BAKSALis? Your screaming for a secular agenda will never win out as can be evidenced already . What's the matter Bangladesh isn't your Hindu utopia? Keep dreaming you fool, most Bangladeshis are still true blue Muslims and value that first and foremost. Your murderous class of people area few in number, you will never win out. This thread is throwing out the garbage that Indians are feeding us and your kind are allowing to proliferate. Next, some reality checks about 1971 and Mujib (yawn, he ain't no deity to any of us and never will be, please squirm in anger like Hasina and co. With their dumb laws).

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Bengali to me sounds like Japanese with sometimes a 'Spanish' touch. It's very fast compared to Urdu.

 

[Hasan89]

Musalmani?? Isn't that reffered to something in particular in some regions of BD?

Bengali to me sounds like Japanese with sometimes a 'Spanish' touch. It's very fast compared to Urdu.

Bengali is beautiful. Official Standard, proper Bengali spoken. It depends in the speed, it can be med, fast depends who is speaking it. Some regional people mix their dialect with Bengali, in their pronunciations of words. But when spoken, with proper words, tone, it is a nice, sweet, poetic language.

Urdu also, nice, in terms of poetic feel. I don't understand Punjabi urdu accent which my local asian shop owner has, though.