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MMRCA debate

The mentality of always preferring to buy foreign goods is not good for national interests.

How can indigenous industries ever become powerful, if even domestic customers do not want to buy it?

You should trust in your own things, that's the only way they will get better.
 
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Yarra that's a broad term sort of thing you're envisioning there.

I am talking of how exactly can collaboration exist between ADA and HAL because at the end of the day LCA MK.1 and 2 and the AMCA (if it ever comes about) will be ADA designs with HAL churning them out, so how can HAL play its part not just in the build but also by informing ADA at the design stage itself?
HAL redesigns LCA Mk2 and frames production design, and outsources design analysis and verification work to ada. That is what is happening, there is no other way in my opinion. That is what is happening. Mk2 is going to be different beast. Very subtle differences, but strong efficient production model will be put out.
 
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yes ! dynamic and evolving structure goes unsaid since i have already made it clear how profound the dependency is with external factors .. !

currently no one is willing to discuss it. The discussion either gets concluded that DRDO are bunch of losers or saner ones wrap it by saying improve military-HAL/DRDO interaction in product prototype testing stage. No one bothers to capture the underlying reason for it.

My friend's elder brother was in DRDO and he left it after couple of years bogged down by too much of politics and ultimately joined IIT Kanpur through gate. He was a really bright fellow.

The challenge really is to change the attitude of each employees in these organisations !
My dear friend, you might have got it the other way around, more focus should be in changing the attitude of the Ministry of D towards organisations like HAL.
DRDO's relation with the armed forces is different than that of HAL's with the Air Force. Having been a part of HAL, I know that technicians engineers and Managers alike take a lot of pride in their work. But the organisation has been time and again let down by MoD, and partly by upper management. HAL has been stifled for funds in abundance, Ignored during developmental work, has been denied research funding. HAL believe it or not is the finest manufacturing organisation and a technological powerhouse in the country. It's achievements are underplayed, and criticism galore, and still the organisation keeps it's head down and keeps churning aircraft's every day, eats all the blames whose real heirs are MoD and IAF time and again without a complain.
Every expert here and there want's HAL to change things, but has some skewed passion for MoD and it's rotten workings. Unless MoD shows some spine and some heart, none of the organisation touched by it's shadow will ever prosper. That's that.
 
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HAL redesigns LCA Mk2 and frames production design, and outsources design analysis and verification work to ada. That is what is happening, there is no other way in my opinion. That is what is happening. Mk2 is going to be different beast. Very subtle differences, but strong efficient production model will be put out.

Wait is that how it should happen OR how it is happening? As in are cent percent sure bro that HAL is spearheading the redesign of the LCA mk.2??

My dear friend, you might have got it the other way around, more focus should be in changing the attitude of the Ministry of D towards organisations like HAL.
DRDO's relation with the armed forces is different than that of HAL's with the Air Force. Having been a part of HAL, I know that technicians engineers and Managers alike take a lot of pride in their work. But the organisation has been time and again let down by MoD, and partly by upper management. HAL has been stifled for funds in abundance, Ignored during developmental work, has been denied research funding. HAL believe it or not is the finest manufacturing organisation and a technological powerhouse in the country. It's achievements are underplayed, and criticism galore, and still the organisation keeps it's head down and keeps churning aircraft's every day, eats all the blames whose real heirs are MoD and IAF time and again without a complain.
Every expert here and there want's HAL to change things, but has some skewed passion for MoD and it's rotten workings. Unless MoD shows some spine and some heart, none of the organisation touched by it's shadow will ever prosper. That's that.

MoD is an absolute joke in most matters, kamaskam ek white paper toh MoD aur GOI should have come with enunciate what our national strategy/aims are, from that would flow all consequent planning including that for systems development.
 
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Happening, Redesign of production design has started, expect proto by mid 2015' ish.

Good, finally get it to a point where its actually meant to be mass produced and the design being streamlined for easy MRO.

@sandy_3126 Any idea what HAL plans to tinker in terms of ensuring ease of production and MRO, I still have some doubts about rate of production yaara, its not just the physical infra for the lines but where will you get all the additional human infra to run a proper line for the sort of rate we need (at least 20-30 a year, of course given that this time we actually have the MoD biting the bullet with a bulk order)?
 
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@sandy_3126

Will mk 2 LCA designed even before the Foc is attained for mk 1 ?

Logically we should attain Foc standard before designing mk 2 isn't it.. Otherwise if there is any fault in mk 1 it ll be carried on to mk 2 as well.. Right?

(Hoping worst case scenario won't develop)


The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation

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The final operational clearance has been put on hold as around 1,700 parametres still need to be validated before the Tejas is inducted into the Indian Air Force
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These parametres are vital for creating flight manuals and laying down specifics of the single engine plane and cannot be completed within the next five months
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The Ministry of Defence expects that the tests will be completed by the middle of 2015
 
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with the nepotistic culture, I would be amazed if they can muster LCA MKII by 2025 ! DRDO and HAL better restructure else perish !
 
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Reading the post in entirety would have helped instead of cherry picking. I stated 3 objectives

Which I have and in my first point I explained why I don't agree with your 3rd objective, so I didn't picked out things.

I hope you understand that, and who evaluated life cycle costs of project and not just the aircraft is in contention here.

For you maybe and we both know where that is coming from and lets skip the parts that are based on your favourism of HAL, since we won't change anything by discussion the pros and cons now. For the MMRCA and the general life cycle discussion now, there is no point of who evaluated it, but on what data they are based and how reliable the data is. It doesn't matter if it's IAF or HAL, what's really important is, how comparable are the data that the vendors gave us, based on their experience or estimates, to the actual cost in IAF operations.

Assuming your argument is absolutely correct
Then EFT, and Rafale had Captor E and RBE2 Operational? RFI was issued by IAF, RAC was not trying thrust an aircraft down the throat of IAF, if mig 29 ovt, had nothing to offer then why did IAF send RFI and RFP to RAC to begin with, and waste the tax payers money. If Mig29 had nothing to offer then why include it in MMRCA.

Rafale has the AESA operational, the EF as I said not and sending out the RFI to all possible vendors is a common procedure from our side and made sense by the MRCA, since we already operated the Mig 29, which made it back than, to the best fast to induct option after the Mirage 2000-5. When the competition was changed to M-MRCA, the RFP logically was sent to the same vendors that already were in the former competition + to the EF consortium and Boeing.
Btw, you make it sound like it's Indias fault that the Russians could not offer more advantages, but it's not, in fact the Russians could had done it smarter, by offering us more industrial benefits to counter the lack of operational capabilities. For example, if they had offered to divert the Mig 29K / 35 production completely to India and to integrate the fixed Kaveri engine, they might had won the competition. But they didn't, they wanted to get the best for their industry, which however is the biggest problem for IAF, to remain dependent on the Russians in such a big way. So by reducing the dependance, they could had made their offer far more attractive to us, even if the fighter was not the best choice.

RVV-PD all aspect would have given a significant BVR advantage

Not like Meteor, but both of these are not part of the ToT and since we aim on replacing R77 versions with Astra, it's doubtful that we had procured them even if we had bought the Mig 35.

Increase in fuel was later shown in Mig29UPG, so was completely achievable.

The UPG is based on the older airframe and not on the one of the Mig 29 SMT, K or 35. The Mig 35 was proposed to us with bigger wings, compared to the SMT and the K, to carry more fuel and payload, but that never was developed, only shown on models and brochures. So the question is not if it's achivable or not, but what of the promised capabilities were actually there to evaluate? AESA only in pre-mature state with a lot of issues back then, no bigger wings, TVC only in the OVT, no new weapons or sensors that could be tested, since the aim is, that upgrades of weapons and techs, developed for Pak Fa could be diverted and integrated to the Mig too (upgraded weapons, the new Russian LDP, electro optics...).

Question, how do you evaluate life cycle cost of a non-existent aircraft to begin with and how credible would that cost be?

The same way all fighters will be evaluated, by the estimates you get from the vendors.

Rafale came to india with a prototype radar and not an operational one

Not a prototype, but a serial production one.

Then where is the penalty clause?

In the final contracts, that fixes the delivery, the way the fighters must be delivered and the timeframes..., but not in the first request of proposal.

And do we know the unit cost of the same MFD's that the JV would be providing compared to what HAL could have given?

Why do we have to know? The importance is on, producing them in India, not producing them by HAL, therefore the RFP requires offsets back to Indian industry, not necessarily to HAL, even if you would have prefered that.
HAL is the biggest player at the moment, but that's mainly because there is no option and not because they are the best choice. So giving them all, only because they are big is also not the best choice for India and wrt MFD's, I don't think you would disagree that Samtel did a pretty good job in gaining know how wrt avionics and becoming a major player in this field too or?

how would IAF even be able to tell with 100% confidence that the bid supported can let BEL completely manufacture the RBE2 from scratch within a given time period?

Again, why do you think IAF would do that? They evaluated the "offers" which said that X and Y techs will be offered as part of the RFP requirements, they don't evaluate or even contract things between BEL and Thales, that would relate to the manufacturing part, that happens only after the final selection of the fighter as we have seen for the last 2-3 years.
 
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@Dillinger
@gslv mk3
@Bhasad Singh Mundi
@Omega007
@spectribution



As i have been saying for long

People agree,all of them that HAL is shit,they said it without mincing words.
Let the defenders of psu's come


Yeah,and why do you mention me boss??When did I contradict your views on HAL or BHEL or OFB or any other defence MANUFACTURING hubs??Just show me the post.

My sole objection has always been you indulging into unrelenting baseless bashing,accusations and cursing against DRDO labs at the drop of a hat.I never uttered a single word against you for doing the same against the manufacturing units be it HAL or anything else.I've always stated and I still say that manufacturing of defence hardwares should always be handed over to private companies but the R&D part should be left to government agencies,in this case being the DRDO.


You don't believe HAL to be a part of DRDO now.........do you??!!In that case I've got really nothing to say.
 
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Yeah,and why do you mention me boss??When did I contradict your views on HAL or BHEL or OFB or any other defence MANUFACTURING hubs??Just show me the post.

My sole objection has always been you indulging into unrelenting baseless bashing,accusations and cursing against DRDO labs at the drop of a hat.I never uttered a single word against you for doing the same against the manufacturing units be it HAL or anything else.I've always stated and I still say that manufacturing of defence hardwares should always be handed over to private companies but the R&D part should be left to government agencies,in this case being the DRDO.


You don't believe HAL to be a part of DRDO now.........do you??!!In that case I've got really nothing to say.

Man i quoted u for general discussion!!
Whats wrong with u :woot:

:p::o:o_O:what::p:rofl::argh::disagree:

@sandy_3126

Will mk 2 LCA designed even before the Foc is attained for mk 1 ?

Logically we should attain Foc standard before designing mk 2 isn't it.. Otherwise if there is any fault in mk 1 it ll be carried on to mk 2 as well.. Right?

(Hoping worst case scenario won't develop)


The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation

browdot.gif
The final operational clearance has been put on hold as around 1,700 parametres still need to be validated before the Tejas is inducted into the Indian Air Force
browdot.gif
These parametres are vital for creating flight manuals and laying down specifics of the single engine plane and cannot be completed within the next five months
browdot.gif
The Ministry of Defence expects that the tests will be completed by the middle of 2015

logic and HAL in the same line??
Too generous of u,,lol.

On ur querry yes,,,looking at this speed mk1 will not get foc before 2016,,no matter what any fanboy states here.
And these guys already want funding for lca mk2 and amca!!:disagree:
 
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The mentality of always preferring to buy foreign goods is not good for national interests.

How can indigenous industries ever become powerful, if even domestic customers do not want to buy it?

You should trust in your own things, that's the only way they will get better.

You have missed the complete purpose of MMRCA don't you? We are trying it indigenously, but to not be dependent on the sucess of that project and because we have to option to procure foreign stuff too (which is an advantage!), we opted to split the requirement into indigenous and MMRCA. So it's about spreading risks and gaining additional advantages!
 
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