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Saturday, June 02, 2007

Misinformation on China
By Jonathan Power

Walter Lippmann reminded us that news and truth are not the same thing. “The function of news is to signalise an event; the function of truth is bring to light the hidden facts.” The press has to keep relearning this piece of wisdom.

“US fears over China long-range missiles”, ran The Financial Times’ front-page headline last week and an eight-column spread rammed the message home, that Washington is becoming worried that China is deploying mobile land- and sea-based missiles that have the range to hit the United States.

How is it that an otherwise sober newspaper chooses to make ballyhoo out of old news, and misleading news at that? Other papers chose not to address the subject in detail, apart from the Washington Post, which a day before ran a short story on page 17, noting that Congress was about to receive the administration’s annual report on China’s military power. But it also observed that “China’s current ability to sustain military power over long distances is limited.”

The military-industrial complex is one thing. At least we know what it is. But the military-academic-journalistic complex is another. We don’t know what it is or how exactly is works, except that Pentagon contracts for universities are ubiquitous and “freebies” for journalists, even if it is merely an all expenses paid trip to a prestigious conference, are an art form for the organisers.

Besides, most newspapers are riven in their security and military affairs departments with a macho culture — how rare it is for a woman to be writing about the critical security issues of the day. And how rare it is for a paper, as did the New York Times after the Iraq invasion went bad, to admit that it did an inadequate job of reporting the war’s run-up. How rare is it too for a senior politician to criticise television reporting, as does former US vice president, Al Gore in his new book. “If it bleeds it leads, if it thinks, it stinks”, he says of the networks’ cynical maxims. Or for former West German chancellor, Helmut Schmidt, to say, “It is very difficult as a reader or consumer of television to distinguish by one’s own judgement what is led by [lobbying] interests and what is led by rational conclusion.”

In July 2005 the Pentagon released a similar alarmist report to Congress, arguing that China has been raising its defence budget and modernising its military. But the truth is in recent decades China’s relative military power has actually declined. Its military effort peaked in 1971 at the end of the Cold War. From then on until rather recently deep cuts in military expenditure were the order of the day. It has reduced its army from five million to two. As for modernising it is procuring new weapons at a far slower rate than the old ones wear out.

For many decades China’s air force was the world’s largest. But today it has shrunk and more than a thousand (nearly half) of its combat aircraft are types long considered obsolete by other major air forces. Even Taiwan outnumbers China two to one in fourth-generation fighters. As for China’s navy, it is remarkably small.

The press often, as does the Pentagon, highlights China’s missile threat to Taiwan, reporting that it now has over 750 missiles pointing at the offshore island. But it has so few launchers it could only launch 100 at a time. Moreover, they are relatively inaccurate, easy to intercept and only a threat to cities, not to military targets. Taiwan, with its superior attack aircraft, could easily win an air war, even if some small parts of its major cities were destroyed by a missile attack. No wonder that the Taiwanese legislature keeps balking at legislation to finance the up to date military equipment that the Pentagon keeps telling it it must buy.

China would have to divert vast sums from economic development to defence if it wanted to even begin to catch up with the US. And the US would see it coming, giving it ample time to match it. Neither is going to happen. China is increasingly tied to the American economy and Taiwan is the source of much of its foreign investment and high-tech expertise. It would not make sense to China’s present leadership to push for a rapid increase in defence spending when the need is not apparent, the opportunities for military play so few and far between and calls on government spending for development and social purposes so intense. It is most unlikely that a country embarking on adding 10,000 kilometres of railway lines, including 2000 kilometres capable of taking 300 kilometres an hour German trains, is much interested in the unsettling and economically debilitating prospects of war.

Walter Lippmann reminded us that news and truth are not the same thing. “The function of news is to signalise an event; the function of truth is bring to light the hidden facts.” The press has to keep relearning this piece of wisdom.

The writer is a leading columnist on international affairs, human rights and peace issues. This column is based on his book, “Conundrums of Humanity”, published by Brill

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\06\02\story_2-6-2007_pg3_4
 
If it's merely misinformation, we must give thanks to God. and we dont, as we see pile of demonising jobs being well done everyday in a world of press freedom.

some reporters are really like big mouth women (BMW) and cry out all day long "I'm sure the man across the ocean is gonna rape me, because he's got a penis"
 
Btw, my condolences over the sudden death of your Vice Premier Huang Ju. I believe he was a very respected man and a good politician.
 
It's not just misinformation.

1- The formations that are benign modenized are the ones salted for external rather than interanl duties. A Type 59 is still a Tiger II to rioting peasents. The modernisation of forces along the Russian and North Korean borders or across from Taiwan and near SE Asia is another matter entirely form demostic security duties.

2- training budgets are, training is as important as technology

3- Technology aquisitions are up.

4- Mos tof the cuts occured in the PLA's economic empire not in its deployable combat power.

5- Nature of purchases in naval craft are for the most part power projection vessels.

6- China does not properly report its military expidentures. Such things as wages, base costs dependant care etc are covered by other budgets compare to the US. If we us the PRC's standard for what should be on a defence budget the US total drops signifigantly, if we use the US model China severly under reports.

7- The artificial pegging and undervaluing of the Yuan skews the results becuase the USD value reported by China is artiically low.

8- Improper reporting of the total ammount. Observed Chinese purhcases when compared to declared budgets don't match up. This is why most observers claim China's acutal military budget is much much higher.
 
Ofcourse it is disinformation.
The purpose of these misinformations are either for defence budget increase (hitching a ride on the sinophobic bandwagon gets you money) or simply, american's innate nature of being racist.


It's not just misinformation.

1- The formations that are benign modenized are the ones salted for external rather than interanl duties. A Type 59 is still a Tiger II to rioting peasents. The modernisation of forces along the Russian and North Korean borders or across from Taiwan and near SE Asia is another matter entirely form demostic security duties.

2- training budgets are, training is as important as technology

3- Technology aquisitions are up.

4- Mos tof the cuts occured in the PLA's economic empire not in its deployable combat power.

5- Nature of purchases in naval craft are for the most part power projection vessels.


Above 5 points.. what are you talking about?? Since when did China not allow to defend itself?? You are practically saying China should not even allow to own weapons!!

In practical terms, China's modernization is not even on the same level as Japanese, Malaysians, Taiwanese, South Koreans, Singaporeans, Indians, and last not the least, Americans!!

The Japanese still have by far the best navy in asia besides USA, with the most upgraded Aegis missile frigates and cruisers, advanced submarines that's reportly the one of the quietest; the latest F-15 (and looking into buying F-22), F-16, FX-2 (Japan's own AESA fighter), light aircraft carriers, last not the least, it historically invaded China and it is still hostile towards China.

The South Koreans, also have Aegis, the one they building is called KDX. It will be also one of the most advanced Aegis frigate; light aircraft carriers, they also have F-15K, latest block of F-16C/D etc, and they too are looking to buy F-22.

The Taiwanese have F-16, and Mirage-2000, Their own advanced fighters called IDF, Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates... they are no pushover either.

The Malaysians! They have F/A-18 Hornet, MiG-29N, Su-30 MKM (same as Su-30 MKI) !!

The Singaporeans - latest F16C/Block 52, F-15SG, all of the latest and greatest in the inventory.

The Indians - Su-30 MKI, soon Mig-35 AESA, IAI Phalcon, Bramos supersonic cruise missiles, a blue water navy with 50+ years of operating an aircraft carrier!!



Power projection???!!

What does China have in comparison? Su-30 MKK and MK2 that's still inferior to both Malaysia's Su-30 MKM and Indian's Su-30 MKI, just barely comparable (or probably still inferior) to the latest block of F-15 (Korea, Japan) and F-18 (Malaysia). J-10 is only comparable to early F-16 due to its ECM/avionics and FADEC/Engine, it's not even comparable to most of the F-16 operated by all the country mentioned (Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore), J-10's single engine should tell you plenty that it is only a light combat aircraft, not an air superiority fighter.

Now talk about power projection... Japan has a blue water navy, India has a blue water navy, India a blue water navy, even Thailand is a blue water navy. Japan operates several light aircraft carriers, (CVH-rotary VSTOL), India operate an aircraft carrier (VIKRAMADITYA - 30 fixed wing, rotary) and it is in the process of getting TWO MORE.

Even the Thailand have an aircraft carrier !! (18 VSTOL, rotary)

And does China have even ONE aircraft carrier? NONE!!

I haven't even mention how many CVG/CBG the americans have in pacific. (You should know that by heart)

So, face with so many increasingly powerful adversaries (potential or not) with far more advanced weapons, is China's military modernization not justified?? Simply looking at the size of China, and the current size of it navy, and airforce (both are the main power projection force), it is abundently clear China's posturing is gear towards defence. It has none of the numerical and technological superiority enjoyed by the surrounding countries. The current size of force is only the very minimum in protecting China's own border.


6- China does not properly report its military expidentures. Such things as wages, base costs dependant care etc are covered by other budgets compare to the US. If we us the PRC's standard for what should be on a defence budget the US total drops signifigantly, if we use the US model China severly under reports.


Total speculative comment. It is almost irrelevent. US has far larger black budget than China's total defence budget, and that's a fact. US current defence budget of over $530 billion, with Black Budget 1/10 the size of that ($52 billion possibly) is still far larger than China' official budget. ($40 billion)

Let's not forget, US defence budget does not include nuclear weapon development and acquisitions - those falls under DOE (Department of Energy); and how about veteran affairs ? those are not included in the defence budget either!! Those are very significant numbers which are totally excluded from the official budget.


7- The artificial pegging and undervaluing of the Yuan skews the results becuase the USD value reported by China is artiically low.

Oh for crying out loud!! You guys have the REAL CONTROL of the currency, why? BECAUSE YOU GUYS PRINTS THE DAMN MONEY HOWEVER YOU LIKE IT!! You have abandon the Bretton Woods System 30 odd years ago, so now there is absolutely nothing physical to control the US currency except the mouth of your government !!!
The US can continue to print the money because EVERYONE (90%) trades with US CURRENCY. It is practically the defacto currency of the world !! And you are printing it !! So don't start even quoting that line China pegs currency, you should look yourself in the mirror.

"The US currency was involved in 89% of transactions, followed by the euro (37%), the yen (20%) and sterling (17%). (Note that volume percentages should add up to 200% - 100% for all the sellers, and 100% for all the buyers)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forex


8- Improper reporting of the total ammount. Observed Chinese purhcases when compared to declared budgets don't match up. This is why most observers claim China's acutal military budget is much much higher.

You got evidence of that?? I like to see that first hand for myself; just to make sure I get your "american math" right. :cheesy:

Your post is just another typical american perpetrating racist ideology of sinophobia. You should be ashame of yourself. This is no different from the negrophobia for the past hundreds of years even today.

"The black people are going to rape our white women!!" .. (or the Islamophobia).
 
Ofcourse it is disinformation.
The purpose of these misinformations are either for defence budget increase (hitching a ride on the sinophobic bandwagon gets you money) or simply, american's innate nature of being racist.





Above 5 points.. what are you talking about?? Since when did China not allow to defend itself?? You are practically saying China should not even allow to own weapons!!

In practical terms, China's modernization is not even on the same level as Japanese, Malaysians, Taiwanese, South Koreans, Singaporeans, Indians, and last not the least, Americans!!

The Japanese still have by far the best navy in asia besides USA, with the most upgraded Aegis missile frigates and cruisers, advanced submarines that's reportly the one of the quietest; the latest F-15 (and looking into buying F-22), F-16, FX-2 (Japan's own AESA fighter), light aircraft carriers, last not the least, it historically invaded China and it is still hostile towards China.

The South Koreans, also have Aegis, the one they building is called KDX. It will be also one of the most advanced Aegis frigate; light aircraft carriers, they also have F-15K, latest block of F-16C/D etc, and they too are looking to buy F-22.

The Taiwanese have F-16, and Mirage-2000, Their own advanced fighters called IDF, Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates... they are no pushover either.

The Malaysians! They have F/A-18 Hornet, MiG-29N, Su-30 MKM (same as Su-30 MKI) !!

The Singaporeans - latest F16C/Block 52, F-15SG, all of the latest and greatest in the inventory.

The Indians - Su-30 MKI, soon Mig-35 AESA, IAI Phalcon, Bramos supersonic cruise missiles, a blue water navy with 50+ years of operating an aircraft carrier!!



Power projection???!!

What does China have in comparison? Su-30 MKK and MK2 that's still inferior to both Malaysia's Su-30 MKM and Indian's Su-30 MKI, just barely comparable (or probably still inferior) to the latest block of F-15 (Korea, Japan) and F-18 (Malaysia). J-10 is only comparable to early F-16 due to its ECM/avionics and FADEC/Engine, it's not even comparable to most of the F-16 operated by all the country mentioned (Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore), J-10's single engine should tell you plenty that it is only a light combat aircraft, not an air superiority fighter.

Now talk about power projection... Japan has a blue water navy, India has a blue water navy, India a blue water navy, even Thailand is a blue water navy. Japan operates several light aircraft carriers, (CVH-rotary VSTOL), India operate an aircraft carrier (VIKRAMADITYA - 30 fixed wing, rotary) and it is in the process of getting TWO MORE.

Even the Thailand have an aircraft carrier !! (18 VSTOL, rotary)

And does China have even ONE aircraft carrier? NONE!!

I haven't even mention how many CVG/CBG the americans have in pacific. (You should know that by heart)

So, face with so many increasingly powerful adversaries (potential or not) with far more advanced weapons, is China's military modernization not justified?? Simply looking at the size of China, and the current size of it navy, and airforce (both are the main power projection force), it is abundently clear China's posturing is gear towards defence. It has none of the numerical and technological superiority enjoyed by the surrounding countries. The current size of force is only the very minimum in protecting China's own border.





Total speculative comment. It is almost irrelevent. US has far larger black budget than China's total defence budget, and that's a fact. US current defence budget of over $530 billion, with Black Budget 1/10 the size of that ($52 billion possibly) is still far larger than China' official budget. ($40 billion)

Let's not forget, US defence budget does not include nuclear weapon development and acquisitions - those falls under DOE (Department of Energy); and how about veteran affairs ? those are not included in the defence budget either!! Those are very significant numbers which are totally excluded from the official budget.




Oh for crying out loud!! You guys have the REAL CONTROL of the currency, why? BECAUSE YOU GUYS PRINTS THE DAMN MONEY HOWEVER YOU LIKE IT!! You have abandon the Bretton Woods System 30 odd years ago, so now there is absolutely nothing physical to control the US currency except the mouth of your government !!!
The US can continue to print the money because EVERYONE (90%) trades with US CURRENCY. It is practically the defacto currency of the world !! And you are printing it !! So don't start even quoting that line China pegs currency, you should look yourself in the mirror.

"The US currency was involved in 89% of transactions, followed by the euro (37%), the yen (20%) and sterling (17%). (Note that volume percentages should add up to 200% - 100% for all the sellers, and 100% for all the buyers)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forex




You got evidence of that?? I like to see that first hand for myself; just to make sure I get your "american math" right. :cheesy:

Your post is just another typical american perpetrating racist ideology of sinophobia. You should be ashame of yourself. This is no different from the negrophobia for the past hundreds of years even today.

"The black people are going to rape our white women!!" .. (or the Islamophobia).


Where did i say that China didn't have the right to defend itself? Honesty in reporting is not related to a sovergien nations right to defend itself. I would however point out that all of China's territorial disputes involve China claiming land currently held by someone else.

As for spending reporting the way the Chinese report and the way the US reports are not in synce so a straight dollaor to dololar comparison is not valid. It is then further skewed by an under valued currency, PPP, and outirght falsification. If China does not harbor any ill designs on her neighbors why the secrecy and accounting games?

As for racism, who is the racist the person who simply points out how Chinese reporting is not accurate, or the person who uses racial slurs to try and deflect valid questions. I would suggest you take a look in the mirror.
 
Where did i say that China didn't have the right to defend itself? Honesty in reporting is not related to a sovergien nations right to defend itself. I would however point out that all of China's territorial disputes involve China claiming land currently held by someone else.

As for spending reporting the way the Chinese report and the way the US reports are not in synce so a straight dollaor to dololar comparison is not valid. It is then further skewed by an under valued currency, PPP, and outirght falsification. If China does not harbor any ill designs on her neighbors why the secrecy and accounting games?

As for racism, who is the racist the person who simply points out how Chinese reporting is not accurate, or the person who uses racial slurs to try and deflect valid questions. I would suggest you take a look in the mirror.

You are simply backtracking.

First of all, US spents far more and have a far larger black budget than ALL OF CHINESE DEFENCE BUDGET. I have given you ample evidences above - Nuclear/Veteran - those are on whitehouse own website on the breakdown of defense budget. To not include those two crucial budgets into overall military budget is already manipulative and misleading. So don't even start pointing your own guilty finger.

Talk about black budget - the US spent so much on it that it practically bankrupted the Russians because they simply can't keep up. The American have 10 times more black budget during cold war era than Russians - The SR-71 for example, that Russian have little counter against it, the stealth fighter and bomber program that even til this day, 30 odd years later, no other country besides US own a single stealth aircraft. How about the global strike weapons (eg. hypersonic intercontinental cruise missiles) that is also being develop right now? The list goes on.....

"Such an expenditure is called a "black project." The annual cost of the United States Defense Department black budget is estimated at $40 billion by some watchdogs, but some critics believe it to be much higher ($1.5 trillion - Philip Schneider)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_budget
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_project

And the Chinese are not even on par with Russians in term of military spending, not even 1/10th. It is not even comparable to the Russian technology or the US technology of Cold war era even now.

And let's not forget, what did the so called "black budget" goto?
Does China have anything physical to show for on the supposely spent "black budget"?!? There is NOTHING there. Maybe you should just accept the fact that China is indeed telling the truth.

As for the so called "currency manipulation", let me remind you, the Japanese was doing it for nearly 30 years since early 1960s until the end of late 1980s - and I never heard of US calling Japan "ill design" or any of the name calling or threat that american now heap on Chinese. It is simply double standard and shows the true color of preferential treatment and an racist attitude towards Chinese.

And you still havn't address the crucial issue of US dollars - The US currency is the defacto currency of the world !!! But US government has abandon the Bretton Wood system 30 odd years ago and now, it is simply manipluating its own currency at its own will. The US is the real offender here, not China. China has nothing, no leverage in this issue.

YOU ARE PRINTING THE CURRENCY THAT CHINA IS HOLDING.

Who's really guilty of manipulating the currency now?? It is obvious it has always being the US.


Thirdly, did I ever use a racial slur?? Where?? You are blatantly accuse me without evidence, which is basically slandering. I am pointing out the fact that your country had a history of sinophobic policies (PLUS A WHOLE LOT of other racist policies), it is a FACT. There is no racist slur here, it is reality. Do I even need to remind you and list it to YOU all the racist policies american have enacted for the past few hundred years?? I don't believe I need to do that, you should know your own history yourself. So you should really look yourself in the mirror before you accuse me of anything.
 
You are simply backtracking.

First of all, US spents far more and have a far larger black budget than ALL OF CHINESE DEFENCE BUDGET. I have given you ample evidences above - Nuclear/Veteran - those are on whitehouse own website on the breakdown of defense budget. To not include those two crucial budgets into overall military budget is already manipulative and misleading. So don't even start pointing your own guilty finger.

Talk about black budget - the US spent so much on it that it practically bankrupted the Russians because they simply can't keep up. The American have 10 times more black budget during cold war era than Russians - The SR-71 for example, that Russian have little counter against it, the stealth fighter and bomber program that even til this day, 30 odd years later, no other country besides US own a single stealth aircraft. How about the global strike weapons (eg. hypersonic intercontinental cruise missiles) that is also being develop right now? The list goes on.....

"Such an expenditure is called a "black project." The annual cost of the United States Defense Department black budget is estimated at $40 billion by some watchdogs, but some critics believe it to be much higher ($1.5 trillion - Philip Schneider)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_budget
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_project

And the Chinese are not even on par with Russians in term of military spending, not even 1/10th. It is not even comparable to the Russian technology or the US technology of Cold war era even now.

And let's not forget, what did the so called "black budget" goto?
Does China have anything physical to show for on the supposely spent "black budget"?!? There is NOTHING there. Maybe you should just accept the fact that China is indeed telling the truth.

As for the so called "currency manipulation", let me remind you, the Japanese was doing it for nearly 30 years since early 1960s until the end of late 1980s - and I never heard of US calling Japan "ill design" or any of the name calling or threat that american now heap on Chinese. It is simply double standard and shows the true color of preferential treatment and an racist attitude towards Chinese.

And you still havn't address the crucial issue of US dollars - The US currency is the defacto currency of the world !!! But US government has abandon the Bretton Wood system 30 odd years ago and now, it is simply manipluating its own currency at its own will. The US is the real offender here, not China. China has nothing, no leverage in this issue.

YOU ARE PRINTING THE CURRENCY THAT CHINA IS HOLDING.

Who's really guilty of manipulating the currency now?? It is obvious it has always being the US.


Thirdly, did I ever use a racial slur?? Where?? You are blatantly accuse me without evidence, which is basically slandering. I am pointing out the fact that your country had a history of sinophobic policies (PLUS A WHOLE LOT of other racist policies), it is a FACT. There is no racist slur here, it is reality. Do I even need to remind you and list it to YOU all the racist policies american have enacted for the past few hundred years?? I don't believe I need to do that, you should know your own history yourself. So you should really look yourself in the mirror before you accuse me of anything.


first off, lets level the playing feild. Both countries military budgets are not comparable becuase they do not record the same things. I pointed this out and rather than add costs to the Chinese budget you tried to inflate the US budget further by adding non-military costs such as Veterans benifts and nucelar weapons. Since China does not record these things as military costs why add them to the US total as a comparison. Instead wages, base costs and other items China doe snot list but the US dies needs to be added to the Chinese total.

Secondly, as a publically traded currency the US Dollar is worth wha the world says its worth, the Yuan until recently fixed to the dollar and now pegged to a currency basket is free from speculation and has a hedge against popularity inflation.

Thirdly, China has a black budget as well, how big or how small doesn't matter becase we are talking about the observable military budget, it is here that the Chinese under report to a level that completely skews any real chance of figuring out just how much they are really spending. I have heard on a sino website that China buys more Type 96's every year than Russia has T-90's now thats a hell of cost and not really afforable by the declared budget when they are also building multiple nuclear submarines, 4.5 gen fighters, naval bombers, and aegis class destroyers. The level of capitol improvement alone probalby exceeds the declared Chinese budget of USD 50 billion.

Fourthly, China's PPP is nearly 10 trillion USD (offical) budget of 2.512 trillion. meaning each Chinese yaun spent has the same value as 3.9 USD in terms of what it can buy. The CIA World fact book lists Chinese military spending as 3.6% which is very reasonable and reflects the offical US Goverment possition. However that totals to 90.5 billion nearly twice the official declared budget and when modified by PPP it skyrcokets to between 176.48 Billion (if half the total reflects PPP) to 352.95 Billion (if the total amount is subjected to PPP.) Thats still 150 to 300 Billion less than the US who has both a Higher GDP and spends a bigger percentage of its budget but it is closer to the US than it is to number 3 (Russia) on this list.

Fifth and finally, You did bring up racism, I made no comment on China's right to spend its own money on what ever it wants, made no comment on policy, race, skin color, or anything else and you brought those issues into the discussion. I quote- "
Your post is just another typical american perpetrating racist ideology of sinophobia. You should be ashame of yourself. This is no different from the negrophobia for the past hundreds of years even today.

"The black people are going to rape our white women!!" .. (or the Islamophobia)."

:wave:
 
first off, lets level the playing feild. Both countries military budgets are not comparable becuase they do not record the same things. I pointed this out and rather than add costs to the Chinese budget you tried to inflate the US budget further by adding non-military costs such as Veterans benifts and nucelar weapons. Since China does not record these things as military costs why add them to the US total as a comparison. Instead wages, base costs and other items China doe snot list but the US dies needs to be added to the Chinese total.

Secondly, as a publically traded currency the US Dollar is worth wha the world says its worth, the Yuan until recently fixed to the dollar and now pegged to a currency basket is free from speculation and has a hedge against popularity inflation.

Thirdly, China has a black budget as well, how big or how small doesn't matter becase we are talking about the observable military budget, it is here that the Chinese under report to a level that completely skews any real chance of figuring out just how much they are really spending. I have heard on a sino website that China buys more Type 96's every year than Russia has T-90's now thats a hell of cost and not really afforable by the declared budget when they are also building multiple nuclear submarines, 4.5 gen fighters, naval bombers, and aegis class destroyers. The level of capitol improvement alone probalby exceeds the declared Chinese budget of USD 50 billion.

Fourthly, China's PPP is nearly 10 trillion USD (offical) budget of 2.512 trillion. meaning each Chinese yaun spent has the same value as 3.9 USD in terms of what it can buy. The CIA World fact book lists Chinese military spending as 3.6% which is very reasonable and reflects the offical US Goverment possition. However that totals to 90.5 billion nearly twice the official declared budget and when modified by PPP it skyrcokets to between 176.48 Billion (if half the total reflects PPP) to 352.95 Billion (if the total amount is subjected to PPP.) Thats still 150 to 300 Billion less than the US who has both a Higher GDP and spends a bigger percentage of its budget but it is closer to the US than it is to number 3 (Russia) on this list.

Fifth and finally, You did bring up racism, I made no comment on China's right to spend its own money on what ever it wants, made no comment on policy, race, skin color, or anything else and you brought those issues into the discussion. I quote- "

:wave:



Again, you are not being realistic.

First, if we are talking about the big picture here, let's talk about the real-power projection units, not tanks that only rolls inside China or hand guns or AKs or whatnots. The real front line power projection units are the fighters, the bombers, the naval combatants, and the ballistic missiles. Now, out of all those, The most significant "black budget" secret project that was finally reveal to public is the J-10!! (And highly publicised J-17/FC-1) And does J-10 pose a threat to all the surrounding nations who owns far superior jet fighters (Su-30MKI, SU-30 MKM, Mig-35, F-16, F-15, F-18, Mirage 2000) ???

Next, the SLBM sub currently in China's inventory is still TWO. One JL-1, and one JL-2. That's TWO SLBM for whole of China. The number of CSS-4 currently in service is 20, and the long awaited DF-31 and DF-31A is still not deployed. And there is also no sign of China develop any long range nuclear bombers, or any sort of cruise missile that flies over 3000km+.

The Aegis-like destroyer you talk about, is the Type 052C Luyang II class destroyer. There is currently TWO in whole of chinese inventory, and there is no plan to build more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_052C_destroyer

Second, in every one of the estimates by RAND, SIPRI, DOD, China's expenditure is still largely below American budget.

People's Republic of China (PRC) military expenditure :
Official Statement :$29.9 billion
SIPRI Estimates : $41 billion
RAND Estimates : $42.0-51.0 billion
DoD Estimates : $90.0 billion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China

And it is certainly below your estimate of "$352.95 billion" :cheesy:


So I am particuarly puzzled. If China have largely deflated all those defence budget (let's take your largest number $352.95 billion), then where does all these missing money go??!!

If Chinese military budget is as purported as you said, then what exactly has it got to show for it??

Perhaps due to corruption?? Who knows, it certainly does not and did not materialize into physical weapon system of any sort for the past few years.


As for the currency debate:

China not a currency manipulator
"The US Treasury's Report on International Economic and Exchange Rate Policy, required by law to examine whether any US trading partners are manipulating their currencies to gain unfair trade advantage, has determined in its 2006 findings that China does not manipulate its currency. Still, congressional and media allegations persist that China's continued resistance to US calls to allow its currency to rise to reduce trade imbalances with the United States has distorting effects on global markets and detrimental effects on US companies and workers. Such allegations are misplaced, not supported by either fact or theory. The distortions have been created by US trade and monetary policies and their effects on the exchange value of the dollar rather than by China, which pegged its yuan at 8.28 yuan to $1 within a narrow band of 0.03% for a decade, from 1995-2005, at times above and at other times below market trends.

On July 21, 2005, after repeated pronouncements that no revaluation was economically justifiable or even being officially considered, China announced a surprise 2% appreciation of its currency, putting it at 8.11 yuan to the dollar. It also announced that the yuan would thenceforth be pegged with the same narrow range to a basket of foreign currencies that included the dollar, the euro, the yen and others likely to reflect China's trade relationships with the rest of the world. The components and weight of different currencies within the basket were not disclosed to the market.

China appeared to be following Singapore's managed-float model, keeping both weights and effective bands confidential to allow maximum flexibility within a narrow range tied to a reference peg to the dollar. Many saw it as an obvious diplomatic move to appease misguided US pressure.

Manipulation involves willful, proactive volatile changes to profit from temporary technical market trends against market fundamentals. A stable exchange rate cannot be labeled as manipulative any more than a driver traveling at constant legal speed for long periods apace with the police car next to it can suddenly be accused of speeding merely because the police car slows down from loss of power.

Senator Dodd cited anonymous "credible analysts" who allegedly identify the undervaluation of the yuan by 15-40% as "a very significant cause" of the loss of jobs in the US to outsourcing. By extension, for the US to cure its trade problems that its own permissive monetary and anti-labor policies have created, China must revalue its currency upward by as much as 40%, not because the market demands it, but because the US needs to reduce its trade deficits. What the US is doing is asking China to pay for America's own policy errors.

But the Dodd Committee needs to understand that such a cure would be worse than the malady, as it would cause dollar inflation to skyrocket in the import-dependent US economy, bringing dollar interest rates up with it, and pushing the debt-infested Goldilocks US economy into sharp recession. After all, China alone, at substantial cost to its own economy, kept the yuan's peg to the dollar all through the decade-long Asian financial crisis that began in July 1997, when all other Asian currencies devalued in quick order in a frenzied rush to the bottom.

At both the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee February 6 hearings on the Bush administration's $2.9 trillion fiscal 2008 budget, Paulson again asserted that the US has reached a "crossover" point in its trade with China, with exports to China rising at a faster rate than imports from China. China trade has remained a sensitive topic with congressional members who, faced with pressure from constituents over jobs lost to outsourcing overseas, are pushing Paulson for action to force China to revalue its currency.

Yet the only sustainable way to increase US export to China is to raise Chinese wages to increase Chinese consumer demand, not by forcing China to revalue its currency upward. Currency revaluation will only produce monetary instability that will cause deflation in the Chinese domestic market, thus dampening demand for imports from the US."



Currency peg not immune to market forces
"A peg of one currency with another is a unilateral regime. It does not require permission from the government of the pegged currency. A currency peg is not sacred or inviolable, nor is it a free lunch for the economy that adopts it.

Any currency peg can broken by the market if the government that adopts it is unwilling or unable to bear the cost of sustaining it, as has happened to many currencies around the world, including the British pound's peg to the German mark, which was broken by hedge-fund speculator George Soros in 1992 with a spectacular profit of more than $2 billion in a matter of days, draining the exchange reserves of the Bank of England and precipitating a collapse of Europe's Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM).



US is the head of the currency-manipulation snake
"Fundamentally, a currency peg is merely a different path to the same monetary objective as the setting of the US Fed Funds rate, with the Fed Open Market Committee buying and selling government securities to maintain an announced interest rate target. As the US dollar is the key reserve currency in world trade and finance, the United States, through its interest-rate policy, is the de facto head of the global exchange-rate-manipulation snake and the Fed chairman the chief wizard of exchange-rate manipulation.

For decades, beginning with a collapse of budgetary and monetary discipline during the Vietnam War, the US had been manipulating the exchange rate of the dollar downward, a fact obscured in the past decade by the emergence of dollar hegemony, a regime introduced by Clinton administration treasury secretary Robert Rubin to finance the US trade deficit with its capital-account surplus to deliver borrowed prosperity to the US through a global debt bubble fed by the Federal Reserve's dollar-printing frenzy."


Full text here :
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=LIU20070215&articleId=4816


Fifth and finally, You did bring up racism, I made no comment on China's right to spend its own money on what ever it wants, made no comment on policy, race, skin color, or anything else and you brought those issues into the discussion. I quote- "


I am saying it because you are perpetrating a sinophobic hysteria, without much justification.

:agree:
 
Second, in every one of the estimates by RAND, SIPRI, DOD, China's expenditure is still largely below American budget.

People's Republic of China (PRC) military expenditure :
Official Statement :$29.9 billion
SIPRI Estimates : $41 billion
RAND Estimates : $42.0-51.0 billion
DoD Estimates : $90.0 billion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China

And it is certainly below your estimate of "$352.95 billion"
My estimate of 352.95 is based on PPP. As china gains the ability to prodice more and more technology indeginously the % of the military budget that can be safely inflated to show real purchasing power using PPP (x3.9 Ie 1 Yuan will purchase in China what would take 3.9 dollars to buy in America)will rise. if we use 50% for today (it is almost assuredly higher)

People's Republic of China (PRC) military expenditure :w/PPP 50%(100%)
Official Statement :$29.9 billion $73.255 billion ($116.61 billion)
SIPRI Estimates : $41 billion $100.45 billion ($159.9 billion)
RAND Estimates : $42.0-51.0 billion $102.9-124.95 billion ($163.8-222.3 billion)
DoD Estimates : $90.0 billion $220.5 billion ($351 billion)
CIA Estimates : $90.5 billion $221.725 billion ($352.95 billion)

Now onto power projection issues

China's military budget and domestic production capabilites has jsut recnetly reached the level we are talking about. The US has been here for decades so of course China still lacks assets, however as both forces are now near equally funded (US Commitments drain a good portion of the budget) China will begin narrowing the gap between itself and its neighbors and the US. Just as China has the right to pursue what ever peaceful miltiary matters she chooses, so to does the US. Chinese officers and war games have made very clear that China considers the US a possible war time foe. The US is simply returing the favor beucase as much as both countries need each other, both are also competitors.

I am saying it because you are perpetrating a sinophobic hysteria, without much justification.

Its not sinophobic hysteria. My review simply pointed out some facts that were glossed over by the articles author. The US if it wishes to maintain its posistion must be critically aware of the world and the threat enviroment it operates in. Affter all it is easier to keep a house form catching on fire, that it is to stop one from burning down once it is on fire.
 
Zraver,

RAND's estimates are based partly on PPP and partly on capital costs. Russia does not accept payment in PPP dollars. Also, if memory serves, the DoD estimates does not include PPP but based on capital projection of a 5 SSBN/100 ICBM program as well as modernizing all current Army Groups.

I'm not aware of any increased training funding but rather many of the former CAT C units are now being deprived of anything more than company level training, mostly platoon. AFAIK, only the Rapid Reaction Units and the BLUE ARMY (whichever units they may be this year since they rotate) gets to train at the brigade/regiment and division level.

I would disagree that PLA Army and the USArmy/USMC have reached equivalent funding. While we are stretched with Iraq and Afghanistan, the PLA is also saddled with a bloated force which can be reduced by half and still not lose any combat capabilities. For one thing, they have 6 out of 7 Military Regions too many.
 
OoE, thats why I had PPP figuring form 50-100% to give a spectrum. Russia wants hard cash but its deleiveries are almsot done. China is very clsoe to beign 100% indigenous then PPP at 100% will figure. US Federal Govemrent estimates put China's defense spending at 3.6% of the GDP a very reasonable figure and well behind the US's 5.1% (not counting OEF/OIF) that translates to 90.5 billion in cold hard cash and a higher amount when considered with PPP. That claims that China spends just 1% of its GDP on defense is insane. Aegis type destroyers,nuclear subs, aircraft carrier purchases, DDG purchases, mig/SU buys, 2 new fighters, anti-satalite missiles and lasers, new tanks, helos, atgms, and IFV's, new jeep.hummer etc. One reason the army may be in a training down cycle is the cost and pace of capitol improveemtns across the entire spectrum of the Chinese military minus 2nd Artillery.

China is spending like it was the US under Reagan. The remaining excess in the US budget is mor ethna acocunted for in our non-avoidable commitments and costs the Chinese eithe rdon't share or report deifferently.
 
My estimate of 352.95 is based on PPP. As china gains the ability to prodice more and more technology indeginously the % of the military budget that can be safely inflated to show real purchasing power using PPP (x3.9 Ie 1 Yuan will purchase in China what would take 3.9 dollars to buy in America)will rise. if we use 50% for today (it is almost assuredly higher)

People's Republic of China (PRC) military expenditure :w/PPP 50%(100%)
Official Statement :$29.9 billion $73.255 billion ($116.61 billion)
SIPRI Estimates : $41 billion $100.45 billion ($159.9 billion)
RAND Estimates : $42.0-51.0 billion $102.9-124.95 billion ($163.8-222.3 billion)
DoD Estimates : $90.0 billion $220.5 billion ($351 billion)
CIA Estimates : $90.5 billion $221.725 billion ($352.95 billion)

You made several crucial flaws in your argument.
First, PPP is by no mean the absolute estimate. It is extremely inaccurate estimate since you need to consider WHAT are the same "basket of goods" we are comparing here. The basket of goods are by no mean the standard of comparison since goods usage varies across culture, needs, and production values. And then there is a fatal flaw of using PPP as standard judgement.

As you move higher up the value chain of products, it become clearer that higher value products are almost always equal in value to the western counterparts. The PPP no longer applies. Case in point, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, EU. As these countries gone from third world countries after WWII to become first world countries now...they moves up to produce higher value products, their wage and cost soars, until their products are equally valued across the ocean to US. It simply cost far more to produce these higher value products because it requires substential investment in infrastructures, technologies, and education. Because to produce high-tech hardware first you need to attract top talents around the world, and to do so, you need to offer competitive salary packages (in absolute term - nobody take salary on PPP term) that are standard in the developed western world.

Also, another example is the high-tech chip industry - you cannot "hand-made" a CPU from some low-tech garage like you hand-weave a grass basket, you definitely need almost the same comparable investment to the west in construction and matenance of a chip foundry. The only real cost saving is value of land price, which is minimal as chip foundry in the west are also built on cheap land. The labour cost saving again, is also minimal; as high-tech industries (chip foundry) have minimal labour force because of the high degree of automation due to the precision required.

Now, military hardware is high-tech industries. To make military grade hardware, the investment is even more substentially higher, to the point that PPP is irrelevent.



Now onto power projection issues

China's military budget and domestic production capabilites has jsut recnetly reached the level we are talking about. The US has been here for decades so of course China still lacks assets, however as both forces are now near equally funded (US Commitments drain a good portion of the budget) China will begin narrowing the gap between itself and its neighbors and the US. Just as China has the right to pursue what ever peaceful miltiary matters she chooses, so to does the US. Chinese officers and war games have made very clear that China considers the US a possible war time foe. The US is simply returing the favor beucase as much as both countries need each other, both are also competitors.


What you said is totally unjustified.
I think you should be aware that US is the one projecting the power here, US is the "offender" here for making threatening postures. Imagine if China is to build large military bases in Cuba, Mexico, have CVG/CBGs, and strategic bombers stationed near US coastline, now what would you feel?? Again, let me reiterate, the US is making the threatening postures here, China has never provoked the US in any sort of way. It is your sinophobic hysteria that drives you into thinking China is a threat here.


Its not sinophobic hysteria. My review simply pointed out some facts that were glossed over by the articles author. The US if it wishes to maintain its posistion must be critically aware of the world and the threat enviroment it operates in.


I have no problem US maintaining its position peacefully, in non-confrontational way. But it is not.


Affter all it is easier to keep a house form catching on fire, that it is to stop one from burning down once it is on fire.


Oh? So China is the fire here? again, you are blatantly perpetrating sinophobic hysteria here. :lol:

Are you sure you are not making the same uneducated, and hugely unjustified threat assessement here like in Iraq?? It seems to me Americans have this tendency to do this kind of behaviors.
 
China has never provoked the US in any sort of way.
Threatenign to nuke LA, actively sayign how they will sink carriers, ramming a elint plain in international waters and then holding the crew hostage and ransacking the plane in violation of international law, massive spy rings in the US, theft of nuclear weapon secrets, attempted purchase of high tech items and the list goes on, threatening a major US Ally repeatedly, interferrign with US treaty obligations etc.

Oh? So China is the fire here? again, you are blatantly perpetrating sinophobic hysteria here
[

I never said that, but instead of a colorful metaphor more fititgn a military based forjum I should have just stuck with the old version- An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure.

You are the one who keeps bringing race and phobia int the mix, it is fairly obvious you ar eprojecting your racism onto me. It won't work so you should try something else.

On to PPP, your attempt to discredit it fails miserably. While a Chip, a ton of armor grade steel, or som other high tech military technology should cost the same across national borders it doesn't. While a new fighter in the US,UK,Japan would ahve comaprable costs, a new fighter form a centralized and planned economy wouldn't. More centralized state run/state owned economies have historically shown massive cost savings for comaprable items not least becuase of the lack of signifigant profit factor. One has only to comapre the price of an F-15 to a SU-30MKM to see the differance or an F-16blk52 to a J-10. PPP does translate into this realm.
 
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