Military Undermines Government on Human Rights

[fatman17]

^ i havnt read the report so i may be putting the cart before the horse but i can bet its abt the 'perceived' conduct of the army in the current WoT operations against the militants or is the report looking at the 'historical' perspectives.

will come back but i have just one question for our 'learned' posters.

are these militants 'entitled' to human rights?

 

[S-2]

"...are these militants 'entitled' to human rights?"

Good question. I'm of two minds. If combatants lay down their weapons and surrender, how should they be handled?

Would you encourage the U.S. to keep Guantanamo open? I thought the harassment at Abu Ghraib was fraternity level. Should we ramp up the bamboo splints and hand-cranked electrical generators and really get serious?

What separates us as a society from our enemies and where is crossing that line justified? There's a thread elsewhere that argues strongly against torture, for instance, indicating that studies show the quality of intelligence derived is commonly poor and unreliable.

What about the Canadian colonel if he's guilty. You know his attorneys will plead a mental incapacitation rap. Does he deserve it. I throw him in because human rights affect the heinous criminals as much as the heinous combatants, correct?

Not picking on you nor seeking a fight but frankly unsure where I stand. It vascillates with my anger. I know what I'd like to do to Siraj Haqqani or Maulvi Nazir. Omar and, obviously, OBL too. Then again, do I feel the same about a guy who's making more money planting IEDs and sniping our guys than if he planted pomegranates? Sometimes but not always. Depends on the specifics involved, I suppose.

How about you?

Thanks.

 

[waraich66]

^ i havnt read the report so i may be putting the cart before the horse but i can bet its abt the 'perceived' conduct of the army in the current WoT operations against the militants or is the report looking at the 'historical' perspectives.

will come back but i have just one question for our 'learned' posters.

are these militants 'entitled' to human rights?

Militants and Military both are violating human rights , what is difference?

Violations in the course of counter- insurgency
Pakistani security forces deployed in the tribal areas bordering Pakistan and adjacent areas of the North West Frontier Province (Swat) killed and injured civilians during operations against tribal armed groups and Pakistani Taleban.

On 19 October during an operation against Pakistani and foreign fighters, fighter jets bombed a village in Swat. Local residents reported that 47 people, including many civilians, were killed.
The government’s operations displaced hundreds of thousands of people. Many internally displaced persons remained without access to humanitarian assistance or adequate protection by the government. Some 20,000 Pakistanis crossed the border to seek refuge in Afghanistan.

Pakistan | Amnesty International Report 2009

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Its a natural phenomena,war brings casualities in case Pakistan sir dont u know that army had evacuated areas before they did any operations?
And if ur talking about militants hell yeah i personally think they should be skinned alive sprinkled with spices and have there every finger amputated using andrenaline injections and then there bodies should be torn infront of there comrades.And then thrown in acid dumps.

 

[fatman17]

"...are these militants 'entitled' to human rights?"

Good question. I'm of two minds. If combatants lay down their weapons and surrender, how should they be handled?

Would you encourage the U.S. to keep Guantanamo open? I thought the harassment at Abu Ghraib was fraternity level. Should we ramp up the bamboo splints and hand-cranked electrical generators and really get serious?

What separates us as a society from our enemies and where is crossing that line justified? There's a thread elsewhere that argues strongly against torture, for instance, indicating that studies show the quality of intelligence derived is commonly poor and unreliable.

What about the Canadian colonel if he's guilty. You know his attorneys will plead a mental incapacitation rap. Does he deserve it. I throw him in because human rights affect the heinous criminals as much as the heinous combatants, correct?

Not picking on you nor seeking a fight but frankly unsure where I stand. It vascillates with my anger. I know what I'd like to do to Siraj Haqqani or Maulvi Nazir. Omar and, obviously, OBL too. Then again, do I feel the same about a guy who's making more money planting IEDs and sniping our guys than if he planted pomegranates? Sometimes but not always. Depends on the specifics involved, I suppose.

How about you?

Thanks.

its a fine line isnt it - "a soldier when he sees his comarade or a countryman hanging on a pole with his heart knifed out" by the militants, are you going to define the 'finer points' of human rights to him - probably not !.

coming to the people who unfortunately lost their lives in a 'war-zone', no one can ensure that civilians will not be 'affected'- it is not the duty of the army (IMO) but the civilian admn to ensure that areas are evacuated prior to the ops - unfortunately the 'burden' falls on the army because of the 'in-effectiveness' of the civilian admn.

in general the human rights orgs dont 'evaluate' these issues when making their reports - to them its abt 'black and white' or 'right or wrong'.

 

[Ahmad]

Militants and Military both are violating human rights , what is difference?

Violations in the course of counter- insurgency
Pakistani security forces deployed in the tribal areas bordering Pakistan and adjacent areas of the North West Frontier Province (Swat) killed and injured civilians during operations against tribal armed groups and Pakistani Taleban.

On 19 October during an operation against Pakistani and foreign fighters, fighter jets bombed a village in Swat. Local residents reported that 47 people, including many civilians, were killed.
The government’s operations displaced hundreds of thousands of people. Many internally displaced persons remained without access to humanitarian assistance or adequate protection by the government. Some 20,000 Pakistanis crossed the border to seek refuge in Afghanistan.

Pakistan | Amnesty International Report 2009

what PA is doing is not in violation of human rights, on the other hand the Taliban(on both side of the border) are committing crimes against humanity. How can Pakistan Army distinguish between a Talib fighter and civilians? they take the civlians hostages, start firing from houses etc. And can you tell me how pakistani army could avoid those civilian casualties you mentioned? any suggestions?

 

[S-2]

My own thoughts stem from wars like the 30 and 100 year war in Europe as well as W.W. II. I'm likely not a kinder, gentler former soldier. As such I believe a quid pro quo exists between conqueror and conquered that goes something like this.

"We are at war with you because all other means of reconciliation have failed. Your citizens are complicit by virtue of tolerating your government. Were they not tolerant, they'd be in the streets fighting and dying rather than submit to your rule. As such, we intend to destroy all of you subject to your acquiescence.

That can be mitigated and lives shall be spared but only by strict adherence to our rules of military governance. Should our forces be attacked by your citizens, we will destroy you without regard to those afflicted by our wrath. If not attacked, then your cities and their citizens shall be spared".

This notion gave rise to the "open city", IMV. It was commonplace for our troops to see bedsheets hung from windows as we approached German cities in the last days of the war. Equally commonplace was the appearance of the burgomeister outside the city to surrender such and guarantee our safe passage. We've all heard of the horrors stemming from the 13 year old Hitlerjugend with a hunting rifle taking a pot-shot for the reich and unleashing a sh!tstorm. I don't know whether those events ever actually happened but it is a good dramatization of the possibilities. Clearly battles like Aachen were on the minds of the Germans in those last days.

I think such is right and proper. I don't condone rape nor trophies, pillaging as it reflects poor leadership and troop control. Thus I'm no big fan of pillaging a city for the hell of it. OTOH, when uniformed combatants of a nation have been defeated en toto, then it's time to call it a day. That's what "surrender" means.

We've gone far away from these harsh but understandable rules. Because we've allowed these realities of raw power to be commuted into the hands of lawyers and diplomats, we now see rationales emerge to justify civil disobediance and the easy morphing to freedom fighters/militias, the absence of uniformed combatants, and aborgation of responsibility for our lands and citizens.

As a soldier, I lived in a simpler world. Church steeples on maps were likely O.P.s for the enemy and plotted as such. I engaged in the practice of optimizing a killing machine to peak efficiency. The war I prepared for in Europe or Korea suggested little quarter would be given or offered. I've little doubt that we would have tore through civilian refugee columns to move our forces forward to the main battle area had war come to Europe. I say this reflecting on a period as late as 1989.

Now? Soldiers are policemen, statesmen, diplomats, civil aid dispensers, and, oh...now and again warriors. It worries me deeply. War is war and in the end is always ugly and should be prosecuted to its full brutal horror to assure that clearly demarcated truth upon those who think it can be casually practiced without consequence.

It will lead, IMV, to a cataclysm someday of epic proportions as matters currently stand.

"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war", says I.

Thanks.

 

[fatman17]

Now? Soldiers are policemen, statesmen, diplomats, civil aid dispensers, and, oh...now and again warriors. It worries me deeply. War is war and in the end is always ugly and should be prosecuted to its full brutal horror to assure that clearly demarcated truth upon those who think it can be casually practiced without consequence.

Amen !

 

[waraich66]

what PA is doing is not in violation of human rights, on the other hand the Taliban(on both side of the border) are committing crimes against humanity. How can Pakistan Army distinguish between a Talib fighter and civilians? they take the civlians hostages, start firing from houses etc. And can you tell me how pakistani army could avoid those civilian casualties you mentioned? any suggestions?

You are right every all tribes has arms , it is not easy for army to distinguish but question is why GOP allow them weapons for sixty years and now suddenly GOP/US wanted to make this region home of peace and love , that area will remain land of guns as it was , bad habbits die hard.

 

[Ahmad]

You are right every all tribes has arms , it is not easy for army to distinguish but question is why GOP allow them weapons for sixty years and now suddenly GOP/US wanted to make this region home of peace and love , that area will remain land of guns as it was , bad habbits die hard.

I think you are mixing up different things. I agree that people have got guns in those areas, but not all of them. And they dont use those guns against their government. Our focus of discussion here is about civilian casualties and the taliban. If the Talibs(both afghani taliban and pakistani taliban) were any responsible fighters they would have had a uniform to be recoganized by the Army. Taking civilians as hostages and human shield is their main tactic. I am asking you how can pakistani army(and also in Afghanistan) avoid civilian casualty by their huge fire power? And what is the causes of civilian causualy by the armies in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Any positive suggestion how to avoid the regretible deaths of civilians in afghanistan and pakistan in the hands of the army/s?

 

[waraich66]

I think you are mixing up different things. I agree that people have got guns in those areas, but not all of them. And they dont use those guns against their government. Our focus of discussion here is about civilian casualties and the taliban. If the Talibs(both afghani taliban and pakistani taliban) were any responsible fighters they would have had a uniform to be recoganized by the Army. Taking civilians as hostages and human shield is their main tactic. I am asking you how can pakistani army(and also in Afghanistan) avoid civilian casualty by their huge fire power? And what is the causes of civilian causualy by the armies in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Any positive suggestion how to avoid the regretible deaths of civilians in afghanistan and pakistan in the hands of the army/s?

Short ,Medium and long term rehabilitation plan required for FATA and Afghanistan.

1.Deployment of UN forces for peace keeping and rehabilitation.

2.Shariah law implementation, Infrastructure development , Health and education facilities development under UN supervision.

 

[Ahmad]

Short ,Medium and long term rehabilitation plan required for FATA and Afghanistan.

1.Deployment of UN forces for peace keeping and rehabilitation.

2.Shariah law implementation, Infrastructure development , Health and education facilities development under UN supervision.

You are in the middle of hot battle, that is my question. rehabilitaion, sharia, peace keeping force is not related issues here. You are a pakistani soldier, i am an ANA soldier. We are in our positions and suddenly we come under fire from the taliban side, you and me will respond to that attack and eventually capture that position. When we go there we see alot of civilians have been killed as a result of afghan, nato and Pakistani military firing, because where the taliban had taken position was people's houses and we all know that it is almost imposible to make a difference between a civilian and taliban because of their cloths and appearances and because they hide themselves among the civilians. Now in such a situation which i described above, how can you prevent the regretable deaths of those civilians and who is to be blamed for it?

 

[waraich66]

You are in the middle of hot battle, that is my question. rehabilitaion, sharia, peace keeping force is not related issues here. You are a pakistani soldier, i am an ANA soldier. We are in our positions and suddenly we come under fire from the taliban side, you and me will respond to that attack and eventually capture that position. When we go there we see alot of civilians have been killed as a result of afghan, nato and Pakistani military firing, because where the taliban had taken position was people's houses and we all know that it is almost imposible to make a difference between a civilian and taliban because of their cloths and appearances and because they hide themselves among the civilians. Now in such a situation which i described above, how can you prevent the regretable deaths of those civilians and who is to be blamed for it?

In Fact both(Afghan& Pakistan) nations are responsible for creation of insurgents , because we left these areas unattended for decades.

We need to address the root cause of insurgency which is poverty ,injustice and lawlessness.

 

[Ahmad]

In Fact both(Afghan& Pakistan) nations are responsible for creation of insurgents , because we left these areas unattended for decades.

We need to address the root cause of insurgency which is poverty ,injustice and lawlessness.

You again didnt give an answer. But anyways, there are alot of and alot of people in this world that are hungry, poor, uneducated etc, but they dont take arm(like taliban in Afghanistan and pakistan) in the name of religoin(wrongly) and kill their fellow citizens, that is hardly an excuse.

 

[waraich66]

You again didnt give an answer. But anyways, there are alot of and alot of people in this world that are hungry, poor, uneducated etc, but they dont take arm(like taliban in Afghanistan and pakistan) in the name of religoin(wrongly) and kill their fellow citizens, that is hardly an excuse.

If you do analysis of countries under civil war , you will find these three (poverty,injustic,corruption) factors common.